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I am not new to Milsurps but dont know much about Carbines. So I came to this section. I recently bought this Winchester, with paperwork from the NRA, but the DD1149 has no ser# written on it. I hear people talk of weld marks on the barrel band but am not sure what that means. Stake marks for the rear sights is also somewhat of mystery. My main question is, does this look fairly untouched since 1965.
Most of the time when weld spots are brought up it pertains to the earlier narrow Type I bands. These can be found with 2 or 3 weld spots on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRiverrat11
Certain makers were found using 2 weld, others 3 weld.
Your band is what we call a Type II, but to be sure it isn't a Type III (Bayo band) that has been cut back to look like a Type II, it needs the inner retaining band inspected.
With that said your barrel shows no sign of having the latter type III band on it, if it had you'll often find a dis coloration of the finish and 3 wear spots from the bands inner pads wearing on the barrel.
Like in the first picture in this link:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....540#post378540
It's hard to tell from your pictures, but your band doesn't look like a WRA band.
Look at this link and look at the reply and picture posted by fellow member DaveHH for a comparison to your band:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=16678
For Rear sight stake marks. Flip sights usually had a chisel style stake just to the front right of the sight on the top/edge of the dovetail.
Adj rear sights had punch marks, as few as 1 or 2-3 or more. They look like craters on the moon.
Look at this GB auction, it will show you the stake/punch marks used for adj rear sights:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/625390692
HTH,
Charlie-painter777
It really looks untouched since it was made. Dates to about May 1944. The stock was sanded at one point and that was it. Not uncommon with the DCM/NRA carbines. Some went through full rebuilds and others like this one with minimal work done to them. You have a nice gem there.
Does this help show Type II, or Type III cutback to look like a II? Thank you both, I really appreciate it. I have Riesch's sixth edition but many times I still cant figure out what I'm looking at.
Your picture is showing the bottom front part of the band...can you take a picture of the top front part of the band? We don't need to see the top part showing the weld marks. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by SRiverrat11
Is this any better?
Yes, the new pictures help. I'm going to say that's a legit type two barrel band, but not the type most commonly associated with Winchester as Painter pointed out. I remember reading a post in the past where Inland type two barrel bands were known to show up on Winchester carbines in or near your serial number; that could be why your barrel band is the type it is. It's a very nice carbine no matter what, enjoy it!
I've got only one carbine with a Type 2 band. It's a 5.66M Winchester. Is this the same type band as the OP's? Thanks! - Bob
New questions:
Wonder if that frt sight is a lyman made for WRA? Only real way to know is looking over the side profile.
I have a picture comparing the side profile of a Rock Ola and WRA front sight here:
Reply #2....... 2nd picture has WRA on the left
3rd picture WRA on the right....
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38209
Band looks real to me also, just not familiar with these on WRA's, but anything possible during their transition period and so close to the incoming Underwood receivers. In fact these bands look much like the type II unmarked bands found on late Underwoods.
Makes you wonder if not an original Type II band to this carbine, if it may be a replacement due to a damaged sling swivel (?)
Knowing the frt sight maker may help.
May never know, bottom line though is it's a very nice carbine with all original USGI parts.
Does the safety have a "EW" marking? Thinking I may see it when zoomed up.
Thanks for sharing it
Charlie-Painter777
The safety does have EW on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
"EW" !!
On a roll!!!
When you get a chance get some good pics of your front sight, both sides, bottom and behind/top sight blade.
Gotta figure out if its a WRA.
Do you have a little flower setting on your camera (I believe called Macro?) Makes for best close ups.
Looking really nice for you........... and we get to share!
Like getting a piece of your birthday cake HAH!
Cheers
Charlie-Painter777
Made about March 1944. The unique feature is the location of the screw: it is below the two weld marks. Most type two bands have it in line.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6003ca_b-1.jpg
Can you show what it looks like from the top - welds, etc.? - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
Sorry it took so long, I had to drive to Philadelphia and have to go back in a couple of hours. Theres no flower on my cellphone camera and that's all I have. I really appreciate all you guys opinions.
Doesn't have that common WRA fingernail look behind the frt blade, but many don't.
Side profile sure looks like a Lyman made, but I'll have to compare closer to comp pics I have later.
You've done very well.
Be safe getting back.
Regards
Charlie
Here's a couple.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Are those both "genuine" Winchester? They don't appear to be the same manufacturer. - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
It looks Winchester to me. They used three different styles, including one with a light ridge behind the front blade. Also, it appears to have the smeary staking around the sight pin they were known to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRiverrat11
Both bands are Winchester. Pretty sure the lighter one has been refinished.
Also, note the die machine markings on them on the side.
Thank you. You guys are amazing. I finally started recognizing the toe nail machine marks Charlie was talking about (still can't see a difference in the curve of the sight)and I have no idea what the smeary staking is. I'm glad you think it's Win.Quote:
Originally Posted by deldriver
There were other companies that used a thumbnail pattern on the top of their rear sight so be careful about saying it's Winchester every time. As Charlie stated, the first thing to look at, if possible, is a side profile looking for a round ear design, also look at the staking around the pin to see if it matches yours.
Remember, odd things happened in production so just because a book, internet site or even one of us says it should be, it might not necessarily be that way every time.
SRiverrat11,Quote:
Originally Posted by deldriver
Look over this link and pay attention to the rear of the side blade protectors.
Study and note the longer arcing curve found on the WRA used frt sights.
See how it doesn't have a SKI SLOPE type back edge.
Also note the style of punched stake mark used to pinch in the frt sight's pin.
Most often the frt sight pins staking on WRA's looks like a O over/around the pin, pinching the metal on the sight to tighten (stake) the pin.
In time you'll know a WRA at a glance.
Hope I've made some sense, sometimes tough finding the right description....................
LINK:
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=14201
POST #8 in this link will show a before cleaned WRA's frt sight still having some of the metal hanging from being staked:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38393
HTH,
Charlie-Painter777
I think I understand the curve of the sight ears now. The first link was very helpful. I learned very little from the second link other then what an absolutely amazing early Winchester you have there. So, should I shoot mine? If yes, how often?Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
SRiverrat11,
You can't shoot it until you fill out this Data Sheet.
Look this over closely, and print a few off, it will get you very familiar with your carbine:
http://uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uplo...v4__1-1-11.pdf
The above form was found here:
Carbine Club Data Sheets - The Carbine Collector's Club
Here is the main/home page:
The Carbine Collector's Club
I share this with you, because you are now one of us..... mainly because of your sweet carbine ;-)
Cheers
Charlie-Painter777
P.S. You need to invest or borrow a good camera next.
PSS. Look inside the trigger housing magwell, looking at the front teeth on your magcatch, Is there a W stamped on the right one? Looking something like this .W. with these small punch marks on either side of the W?
Ive done the data sheet. I did not take apart the bolt. I will, I just better watch a few Youtube videos on how to do it. Some of the things on the data sheet I don't quite understand what they are. Looking over Riesch's sixth edition helps.:confused:
Just be sure you have a bolt tool when you take the bolt apart. If you take it apart without a bolt tool then get ready to curse and yell and loose your temper when you try to put it back together. This is followed by uncontrollable crying and asking yourself why you did it taking it apart in the first place. Then the rest of the night will be a lot of weeping and wishing you have a bolt tool. The moral of the story is....GET A BOLT TOOL!!!!
Last thing on this carbine guys. After seeing a diagonal pattern I read some threads on here and looked in Riesch's book and I can't figure out whose buttplate this is. I measured the diamonds per inch and got almost 14, but it sure doesn't look like an Underwood. There are no markings on it either. So one more time guys, could I have some opinions please? Thanks, Scott
This picture shows a early Inland on the LEFT
Underwood on the RIGHT
HTH,
Charlie-Painter
http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...DSC07330-1.jpg
Thanks painter777. I found it. It's at the bottom of the ID'ing buttplates page. It's a commercial copy of an early Inland buttplate. Disappointing, but still a nice Winchester.
SRiverrat11,
I had a feeling I'd seen your new WRA before you posted this.. or at least thought I had.
Today while clearing out my GB watch list of completed auctions.... Bam there it was. You got it for nearly $800 cheaper than my notes thought it would bring. I believe with better 'Detailed pictures' the seller would have got the Buy It Now price.
Looks as though your Butt plate was replaced, probably replaced the original that was damaged.
Is the Recoil Plate Screw fully threaded?
Congrats Again... Nice buy !
Charlie-Painter777
I looked at your Data sheet and now see it's partially threaded.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
I'd keep the screw, but would install a X marked on top screw, or a XX. Which some say is actually a + mark instead of a x.
CH-P777
The one he's got is also considered a "correct" one though, isn't it? - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by painter777
USGI,
I just looked over my 2 WRA spring tubes, both have no X. But look exactly like SSR's screw head, with that inner circular look about the slot.
My 5,5 and 5,8 WRA's both have X marked screw heads.
All are Partial threaded.
My suggestion of a X screw for SSR's WRA is bad advice.
I'll PM him.
Thx bob
CH-P777
Thank you Charlie. I was afraid I paid a little too much. My Max bid was $150 less than I paid for it, but then I thought, "are you really going to let it go over a measly $150. I've been looking for one for a long time, I guess it having the NRA paperwork with it made me pay more.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777