Inherited old uniform regalia - need help!

My Uncle passed away recently and I was given a box of items he had. He was never in the military nor was anyone in his extended family to the best of my knowledge (great uncles, aunts, etc).

It appears that this stuff is pre-WW1 and likely froma Regiment in Peterborough (where we live).

The one thing i'm most curious about is the small patch of what appears to be chain mail, what was the purpose of this?

Also the patch that has Best Shot 1911 is pretty special.

Sorry about the sideways photos, Photobucket is having some issues.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jzdg9yih-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nfbohued-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ep2qykul-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nkqttial-1.jpg

The small patch of chain mail is worn on the shoulders of the tunic in certain armored units. The last vestige of chain mail and suits of armor... Prince of Wales Canadian Dragoons (c1857)

Very nice Best Shot badge.

The dragoons badge is pretty well identical to the old 10th Hussars and later the amalgamated Royal Hussars (combined 10th and 11th Hussars)

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The small patch of chain mail is worn on the shoulders of the tunic in certain armored units. The last vestige of chain mail and suits of armor... Prince of Wales Canadian Dragoons (c1857)

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Very cool. Does it look like this all came from one soldiers uniform?

If it is, then it's from a Staff Sergeant from a mounted cavalry regiment - or Armoured. Maybe someone can identify the medal ribbon

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Originally Posted by KRASHED

Does it look like this all came from one soldiers uniform

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It's entirely possible. It all has a place on one tunic at the same time. The ribbon is King Edward VII Coronation...

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

If it is, then it's from a Staff Sergeant from a mounted cavalry regiment - or Armoured. Maybe someone can identify the medal ribbon

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It's hard to see but the one button is a picture of a cannon

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Originally Posted by KRASHED

the one button is a picture of a cannon

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Yes, seen...but that's not what the unit that the rest belongs to is. It could have come from anywhere...

One way of getting an idea of the age of a British/British Commonwealth cap badge is by looking at the crown because it normally changes slightly in style when the Monarch changes. For example the crown on a George 6th era cap badge is slightly different to the crown on an Elizabeth 2nd era cap badge. Presumably the crown changed on a badge from Queen Victoria to Edward 7th then again to George 5th and so on.

Why not mount the badges up in a frame and, perhaps, include a photo/tribute to your uncle in the frame.

I while ago I picked up several WW2 service medals from an antique shop which according to the vendor came from the same source, the family of a deceased WW2 veteran. I did try to find out the name of the veteran but the shop owner didn't know and the people who brought them in didn't return to the shop. I didn't think much of the family for getting rid of their relative's medals for a tiny amount of cash and the veteran probably went through hell to earn them.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

the age of a British/British Commonwealth cap badge

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With this one, if all that came from one uniform, except the Arty button...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The ribbon is King Edward VII Coronation...

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Then this is when it was worn. The crown would match.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Presumably the crown changed on a badge from Queen Victoria to Edward 7th then again to George 5th and so on.

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Edward VII through to Geo VI all used the same crown on badges, devices etc.

F10 you have to remember veterens are people too and not all people are good.
Case in point, a good friends (adoptive) father was a veteren but he was also a verbally and occasionally physically abusive, compulsive lying, alcaholic. She had washed her hands of him before he died (her brother and sister had done so years before) so his stuff was cleaned up and disposed of by a government organisation. Sad, yes, but true.

Another point that Henry probably didn't want to mention is that some veterans have 'memories' that are what you'd best describe as er...., far fetched! Or that simply don't equate with reality or have been, let us say, 'clouded' by time or what others have told them or just what others - not me you understand - have described as pure twaddle. Sorry, but that's how I found some that used to visit us. The best, I found, were those from Korea.

I have got my helmet on and awaiting the incoming..........

Krashed,
Due primarily to a rank I held in the Army, dress codes and the wearing of medals became an important part of my day job.
As a result, I did spend a great deal of time studying medals. I could therefore probably say that the medal ribbon shown in the second photo, Dark blue with central red stripe and white edging, is that of the Coronation Medal 1902 celebrating the coronation of King Edward V11 on the 9th August 1902. It was issued to selected NCO's and other ranks of both the Army and the Navy in Bronze, but silver to those dignatories and Officers taking part in the celebrations.
Hope that is helpful

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

some veterans have 'memories'

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We used to be attended by a WW1 vet in the Snr NCO mess back in the '80s...during the Remembrance day festivities... He was too old to be at the bar and just a little old white haired man. The older NCOs would always put the newest Sgt beside him for entertaining him. Someone to fetch him "Nelson's blood" and whatever he needed. I don't recall him wearing decorations but he had a UK accent still. The only part of our chat I recall was him saying "I had a company of Green Howards' during the great war"... Those days are gone.

Jim,
You are right there..........now called the Rifles with all those great Regiments like the Green Jackets lost inside them, with the Green Howards making up the Yorkshire Regiment.
Those amalgamations, and also those famous Scottish Regiments now swallowed up by Royal Regiment of Scotland....sad times indeed, I often wonder, why they needed to do that in my time, so to speak.
Lets hope the youth of tomorrow bring them all back as Armies will naturally increase due to the many plates they are spinning around the world!!:thup:

Looking forward to speaking to many veterans in Normandy in the next few weeks.

I just remember that no one would sit down and talk to him, he had such a feeble little voice over the din of...well, you've been in the mess during festivities, you know. When he died though, they hung a picture of him on the wall above the chair he loved to occupy... That building is gone now, the pic would have been gashed because none of the youngers would have known him.

Jim,
Thats why it is imperative, that Military history and those individuals who paid with their lives, or survived and left with their memories, are treasured, and in many ways immortalised, by simply writing their details on the back of all the obje dats that messes acrue.
I made sure that our mess manager had all pictures and every single artefact logged and passed to the next person and so on, which I assumed was SOP with every Regiment, besides the silverware!!

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Thats why it is imperative, that Military history and those individuals who paid with their lives, or survived and left with their memories, are treasured, and in many ways immortalised, by simply writing their details on the back of all the obje dats that messes acrue.

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Quite agree, what we are trying to do is preserve history for the future. The fact that the original owner of the item may not of been a nice person, in some cases, doesn't really enter the equation, in my opinion; the item should still be preserved.

Having talked to older relatives, at length, over the years in the years following WW1 there were veterans living in the community with all manner of health issues, some physical and some mental. One of the private schools which my father attended in the 1940s had a headmaster who had been an officer in the British army during WW1 and had seen action in the trenches. The headmaster's and school's "normal" policy of dealing with naughty boys was a few slaps across the backside with "the slipper" administered by the headmaster. But very occasionally he would get "the cane" out, if he thought the offence warranted it. On one such occasion a boy had been caught interfering with another boy's bicycle wheel nuts and the boy was severely caned in front of the whole school in morning assembly. I do wonder if the headmaster's apparent nasty temper was due, in part, to his experiences in the trenches during WW1. The same headmaster did bring out his WW1 Webley service revolver on school sports day to start the races. The mind boggles of what would happen if something similar was done today.

Thats really how MILSURPS must have started, I am sure.

Taking a look back at history, and whether we did, as nations, something well, regardless of whether it was the USA/Australia/Canada/New Zealand or Great Britain \(as it was known back then), designed something fundemental that changed the world for good, although it was primarily built for war.

A "something" that has stood the test of time, which we now all enjoy using, and talking abou, as enthusiasts;)

Some 40 years back here in St John New Brunswick Canada, a school bus was on it's way to morning school assembly when the bus driver heard a noise behind him. He looks back at the children on the bus and sees a boy with a 1928 Thompson... He stopped immediately and queried as to what was happening...? The boy was taking the gun to school for show and tell. He'd brought it aboard in his back pack and had taken it out to show a pal... No ammo, no hazard. I believe the local police relieved him of the fine firearm at the school and no charges were presses. Imagine THAT today...

Thank you all for the help. I'm going to frame all of these items in a shadow box and put it down by my bar with my little memorials to my OPA (sergeant in Dutch Airforce) and my Grandfather.

Makes for good conversation with friends when we are having a pint.

Was also thinking of bringing it to the local regiment to see if they had any interest in preserving it.

If they relate to the local regiment it's always worth telling them that you have it. They'll make a note of it in their records and it'll be recorded. In England it's called the '.....but I know a man who does(or can or has etc)' syndrome

The cap badge is an officer's cap badge. 3PWD was a Peterborough militia cavalry unit that was disbanded and then amalgamated with The Peterborough Rangers, Headquarters and "C" Company of the 4th Machine Gun Battalion, Canadian Machine Gun Corps, to become The Prince of Wales Rangers.
Probably affiliated with the 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards of England. Same cap badge.
www.canadiansoldiers.com

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Originally Posted by Sunray

3PWD was a Peterborough militia cavalry unit

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I say again...just read post two attachment... Prince of Wales Canadian Dragoons (c1857)

Don't most Commonwealth medals have the name of the recipient stamped on them?

All of the "family" medals I have here, or are held by others in the clan, have the Service Number, surname and initials around the circumference.

Don't know about "restrikes", but, as near as I know, if it doesn't have a name. it was not officially awarded.

If there is no name, it could also be a replacement of an awarded medal.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Don't know about "restrikes", but, as near as I know, if it doesn't have a name. it was not officially awarded.

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I had one here from my past mother in law's dad that was un named and issued to him. It was a long service medal with a Colonial ribbon...and no markings. It was pre WW1.

Bruce,
Yes Campaign Medals invariably do, stamped on the rim with Service Number Name and unit, in that order, but not on other "BLING COMMEMORATION MEDALS" or indeed on UN Medals issued whereever you served ie Cyprus/Bosnia etc due to the width of the rim. It was decided to award a parchment instead with a capbadge for the duration of the UN tour.

Sadly there are providers out there, that do inscribe BLING medals for people, but the wrong sized lettering, much like on some made up weapons, are very obvious and for the individual counter productive, as many soldiers know what they are looking at, and they should never be worn with Campaign medals on the same bar, contrary to dress code Armed Forces Act 2006

My understanding is that British WW1 service medals normally had the details of who they were being issued to engraved on the rim at the time of issue by the British Government and at the Government's expense. British WW2 service medals were issued without the details of who they were being issued to engraved on the rim but the person receiving them could, if they wish, arrange to have their personal details engraved on the rim, off their own back and at their expense, if they wish. Different arrangements may have been in force for other Commonwealth Countries. The reason that I state this is purely from examination/observation of WW1 and WW2 British service medals but if others have further information available on this matter could we see it, please.

Don't assume that a WW2 British service medal wasn't officially issued just because of a lack of personal details engraved on the rim, for the reason I've already explained.

There should be an official record of who received a Service medal during WW1 and WW2. The WW1 medal records are easy to access on-line. I don't know how easy it is to access the medal records for WW2 because I've never tried and they may still be held by the MOD, like the WW2 service records.

As a matter of interest, there is no actual 'record' of those issued with the golden and silver jubilee medals, not even on a soldiers record - although it could be. Note the word 'issued' as opposed to 'awarded'. This lack of record keeping was raised a couple of years ago and the answer was that his/her service can easily be verified and with that, his authorisation to it

It is a unit responsibility to notify the Medal Office, as there were other medals like all ther stars, ie Africa/Atlantic/Italy even the recent issues Diamond Jubilee/Silver Jubilee have no inscription on the edges.
You can through the Veterans Agency ask for a copy of your family members medals if they were never issued and likewise they can tell you what he was issued with. Royal British Legion also do a service.
The whole medal subject is a massive minefield, but just because its not enscribed doesn't in itself mean it was never issued to someone.

By "modern" tradition, the King's crown looks like a "dome" with a little Maltese Cross at the top, or as one wag put it, a Cartier bicycle helmet. The "Queens's Crown" has the "bumps" around the circumference and a "depressed" centre topped with a cross.

It is a bit murky because, apparently, over the last five or six hundred years, or so, there have been a LOT of "mods", changes in style, personal preferences, etc. of the crowns.

I dug out the mounted set belonging to my late uncle, the "RAAF" type:

The 1939-1945 Star and the Pacific Star both have his details engraved on the reverse face.

The 1939-1945 Service Medal, the Defence Medal, (King George WITHOUT his crown), and the War Medal, 1939-1945, all have his details engraved around the circumference.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

all have his details engraved around the circumference.

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He may have had this done/arranged by himself such as by his local Jewellery shop. I have a couple of WW2 "Star" service medals engraved on the back with the soldier's details which is an obvious DIY or amateur engraving job. I've never checked the name on the back to see if the person was actually entitled to the medals but I have no doubt that if i was to check I would find that they were.

I did recently purchase a couple of WW1 service medals off eBay. When I looked up the soldier's service record I discovered a most interesting yet very sad story connected to the medals from the service record. I will share the story here on the Forum shortly.

Maybe it's an Australian thing.

The lettering on the back / rim of these medals is very precisely done.

It MAY have been done by the folk who did the thoroughly professional mounting job, but I doubt it.

My own personal "gongs"; Australian Defence Medal and Defence Long Service Medal, with first clasp, came with my Service number and name neatly engraved, at delivery. "Perseverance Prizes" was one description I have heard for these.

The Defence Medal has this information engraved around the rim, probably because it has "images" struck on both sides, whilst the Long Service one is marked on the (plain) back.

Checking for this information is the first time they have ever come out of their presentation cases, neat little metal boxes that also contain the "miniature", along with spare ribbons for both sizes, bar, clasp, etc.

My brother holds our grandfathers WW1 set. I'll get him to scan them and note any extra details for my files.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------

Back to my earlier post:

"The 1939-1945 Service Medal, the Defence Medal, (King George WITHOUT his crown), and the War Medal, 1939-1945"

These three medals are "double-sided", like a coin. Thus, I guess the rim was the only place to engrave any text.

This type of engraving is called "Pantographing" the recipients details on the reverse of the medal where there is no rim to conduct the printing as with many medals issued.

As I say there is no fixed answer to pantographing where and when it is done, but you can detect official pantographing to that done by a cup engraver for sports for example.

A good example is the issue of thousands of medals such as the Silver/Diamond/Golden Jubilee medals. None are issued with the recipients details on the rim, due to the cost as given by the mint through MOD. This excuse applied to ALL Commonwealth countries too.
Thats how much of a minefield it is, no rhyme nor reason except cost!!

I get the Medal Yearbook each year, and everytime I am amazed at how varied each country proudly struck and issue a new medal, and the variety of pantographing or simply no name at all. The MOD Medal Office know exactly what an individual should be wearing, as unit by unit informed them of their committments on return and thereafter medals were struck and engraved accordingly.

Does anyone have a WW2 British issue Service and Defence medals that has had the rim engraved, at issue, with the details of the soldier to whom it was issued? If anyone does could we see some pictures of the engraved rim, please, because all the WW2 British examples that I have seen have been without any engraving on the rim.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Maybe it's an Australian thing.

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Probably just a continuation of what was done with the WW1 service medals.

Just a minor point regarding the marking of medals issued until recently. They were actually carefully stamped around the edge while clamped into an upright rotary jig which the operator could rotate mechanically one letter at a time to get the spacing exactly. It was very time consuming too! Recently, from Gulf 1 onwards it was mechanised to a sort of burned-in etch

Gil, I am referring to specifically WW2 British issued service medals; I'm not also referring to Post WW2 British issued service medals. I've not taken that much interest in Post WW2 service medals.


A distant relative, by marriage, who served in both WW1 and WW2 as a doctor received the Military Cross. I have no idea which war he received it or what he did to get it. I looked up his WW1 service record which was not available but because he also served in WW2 I assume that it's still held by the MOD.

Pantographing applied to WW1/WW2 medals to, but not the Stars as mentioned earlier. I do know of several old soldiers who definately did the time, but had no pantographing carried out on their medals, so again, it appears to be hit and miss affair, but most have their details enscribed. I noticed when I applied for medals not given at the time, for a few of my locals, they came back with no pantographing at all FYI.

Here are some examples of a group containing both pre and post WW2 medals which are currently for sale on that site. Notice nothing on the stars at all. Incidently the Military Cross does get stamped with the year it was won nothing else FYI

Yep, definately hand stamped as opposed to engraved. With the old 7 figure regimental number (shown by Gil in thread 42) as opposed to the later, post 1949(?) ARMY 8 figure number that I seem to recall started at 20 000 000. Mine started 23xxxxxx allocated in 1963. Officer and Womens numbers were all 6 figures and from 2010 this changed and Officer and NCO's numbers were the same, starting at 30 000 000

It is these 2 medals which I'm referring to, specifically, the 1939-45 war medal and the 1939-45 Defence medal. I have not seen an example of either that has been marked on the rim with the soldiers details which leads me to suspect that they were issued unmarked. If anyone has an example of either medal medal that has been marked on the rim and it is believed that this was done at the time of issue I would be interested to see an image of it, please.

As I said earlier in this thread. The pantographing of all medals was never the case, it was very hit and miss.

I can however say that the War Medal 1939-45 was struck in cupro-nickel and issued "unnamed", however, those issued to Australian and South African personnel were officially named. The Canadian version of this medal was struck in silver.
You would have had to have performed 28 days between 3rd September 1939 and 2nd September 1945 to be eligible for this medal.

In relation to the Defence Medal 1939-45 (Green and Orange) it was struck again in cupro-nickel and it was generally "unnamed", the Canadian medal was struck in silver. Issued to service personnel for 3 years service at home, one yeras service in a non operational area eg. India or six months service overseas in territories subjected to air attack or otherwise closely threatened.
Hope that answers the query, but I am sure there will be those out there who have had their own medals enscribed by other services on both these medals, not by the MOD.

This link may also be helpful for a few conundrums surrounding British Medal issue note it is a General Guide;)

Naming Styles on British War Medals General Guide

Ok thanks Gil for the information which confirms what I suspected about the U.K. issue of these 2 medals, i.e. they were issued in the U.K. unnamed. My Grandfather was entitled to both medals but didn't claim them on the grounds of "if all his country could give him for risking his life for several years were 2 cheap bits of metal, they were not worth bothering with" and so he never claimed them. My Grandfather was entitled to them because of his service in the Home Guard and according to The Imperial War Museum very unusually also served in the Civil Defence as an Air Raid Warden during the same period.

Air Raid Wardens put themselves in "harms way" and in danger because they were out and about during air-raids trying to give help and assistance to people where it was needed. I know one incident that my Grandfather helped out at involved a farm that had been hit early evening with incendiaries, which was on fire, and there was an urgent need to get the fires out before the main bomber force arrived and started bombing using the fires as markers/aiming points. There was a problem with getting access to the farm with a fire appliance but my Grandfather did help "manhandle" a portable fire pump to the farm, with some difficulty. The only source of water for the pump was a well which very quickly dried up at which point the main bomber force arrived and started bombing on the fires. There was nothing more that could be done and the fire fighters together with my grandfather decided to call it a day. The Fire Fighters of WW2 often seem to get forgotten about, risking their lives on a nightly basis, on the Home Front.

You can, as an immediate relative claim for his medals, which I suggest you do, even if it is only for future generations to marvel at.

The problem is that if the County Civil Defence or NFS/AFS fire authority didn't put the member forward or the paperwork is missing they simply will not issue the medal. I don't know whether that applies to civilians but it certainly applies to the Army.

My Grandfather qualified for the medals twice because he was a member of the Civil Defence, a civilian organisation, and also the Home Guard, a military organisation. The Imperial War Museum said, in the 1970s, that this was very unusual to be in both organisations at the same time because if the Germans had invaded he ran the risk of being shot as a spy by belonging to both at the same time. It has been suggested that the Germans would have treated the Civil Defence as civilians but captured Home Guard as prisoners of war had they invaded.

Being an ex medal Collector and still meet up with a few of them, UK issued WW2 Campaign medals were never impressed with any details, only thing that was issued with them is a small certificate that has all the medals in WW2 and is marked with the ones that were issued, of course this wasn't named either, so unless you have the box they were sent in or other means of ID its impossible to find the owner.

Its why collectors seemed to stay with Crimea, Boer War, WW1 medals etc. Even then many years ago before the internet and family tree sites etc, the main part of collecting was casualties or Gallantry groups.

A good example is The Crimea Medal, It was issued un impressed, and was either returned to the mint for "officially impressed" some were done within the battalion supposedly quite crude, others were done privately by jewellers, Its said in some cases The OC footed the bill for some of his men?

For obvious reasons there are now more " Charge of the Light brigade" groups in circulation than actual numbers issued.........

As Gill points out, a lot of folk jump on the band wagon and buy commemorative medals...... one example is the Merchant Navy medal, I've seen a few in uniform wearing this......... for anyone In the Merchant Navy you had to apply for medals , unless you were in the RFA........ or it was obvious you were part of a task force etc.