I see so many milsurps these days without their original bolt.
Is it a stigma to buy a rifle in that condition? There are some pretty nice ones that are matching except for the bolt.
What do you think? Buy or pass?
Only Curious
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I see so many milsurps these days without their original bolt.
Is it a stigma to buy a rifle in that condition? There are some pretty nice ones that are matching except for the bolt.
What do you think? Buy or pass?
Only Curious
Depends on the price, the make, the model, the caliber (I own some head space gauges), condition. It may be worth buying for the parts if nothing else.
Al
Other than effecting the collector price , there is nothing wrong with a mis-matched bolt .
It depends on the rifle. For example I have a Bulgarian M95 with a non-matching bolt, but if I waited for another original Bulgarian M95 with a matching bolt, it would likely never happen. A Swiss or Swedish rifle I wouldn't accept a non-matching bolt as the majority is matching.
It also has the added benefit of making the firearm cheaper which can be beneficial if your seeking a more representative piece than a 100% correct from the factory example. When your shooting provided the firearm isn't handfitted to the rifle, you won't even notice the difference.
I look at a matching bolt as a plus. I don't look at a mismatched bolt as a minus. As stated above, I would not buy a Swiss rifle with a mismatched bolt because it is extremely rare for one to be mismatched. But nearly everything else is more common to be mismatched than matched. US rifle bolts aren't serialed at all, most Italians aren't either. Most Soviet Nagants match but Finn Nagants don't. Matching German rifles command a huge premium putting them out of the price range of all but the serious collectors because most don't match. Japanese and British rifles are about 50/50, maybe less. French rifles rarely match, Turk Rifles never match, Yugo depends on the model. Spanish never match, Swedes almost always match. I guess I shouldn't say "never", there are always the exception and if you find one, buy it if it's cheap. Austro-Hungarians are usually force matched. Kind of a crap shoot.
I agree with Steve. Most of all matching number firearms are collector grade
The point about numbering bolts is to make sure that they stay with the same weapon for mechanical reasons. Generally, that is so that the locking surfaces that take the whole of the rearward load (recoil) bear evenly on the body locking shoulders they're fitted to. That is a simple job for a competent engineering minder person to do. If they'e not bearing evenly, then it's a slightly more difficult job to stone the locking surfaces until they DO bear evenly - to spread the rearward loading of the bolt evenly. But in doing so, ensure that you keep the headspace within the limits.
Then number the bolt to suit. That's what real Armourers have been doing for the last 100+ years. I have simplified it a tad but that's what we do with Enfields, L1A1's Brens, Vickers and............. and............
Disadvantage? Not to me it wouldn't be! I'd just accurately fit the new or used bolt and number to suit
Only for collectors the matching is a necessary (or almost) plus.
I love to have my rifles with matching bolts just because of it, but one of my preferred rifles, a Soviet 91/30 MN is all matching BUT the bolt.
Trigger is wonderful and the rifle is as accurate as any other fully matching I have.
Another one I have that is a kind of Frankenstein, with different numbers on several pieces, also of the bolt, is a WWI Gew. 98. Still smooth as silk and very accurate. And stable in my top 3 of all times.
It's up to you. See what you like and be prepared for a higher price if everything matches, but if it doesn't, don't bother too much.
As Aragorn most correctly wrote above, many countries never even numbered the bolts, considering them interchangeable parts.
More about your being able to find a bolt for a reasonable price. Lots of milsurps have been assembled out of parts bins with zero QC, but installing another bolt isn't terribly difficult. Depending on what rifle it is, of course. It can get expensive though. A bolt head for a No. 1 Lee-Enfield runs about $30 and it takes a handful to check with headspace gauges(that run about $30 each too). More expensive with bolt that don't have separate bolt heads.
"...Most of all matching number firearms are collector grade..." No, they aren't. Not all 'matching' rifles are in decent enough condition and condition comes first when determining collectability.
And how do you know that the all matching number rifle hasn't been matched and numbered afterwards by an Armourer on his work bench in the Country from where the rifle originated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspen80
For me it's a pass. I want to shoot them, and a replacement bolt may not (or may) have correct headspace, etc. :thdown:
Condition doesn't come first. Desire comes first. Collectability is subjective, and it is all based on the desire of the person wanting the rifle. What someone considers collectable changes from person to person. I personally prefer rifles with character and usage (i.e. not best condition) over many pristine rifles for the simple reason that pristine rifle sat in a armoury somewhere and never did anything. If it is to marvel at the craftsmenship (think mint South American Mausers) that is one thing, but if I want to collect used examples it is another thing all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunray
Peter, you are basically correct, and I am not going to make sweeping statements for all countries, but on German rifles an armoury-fitted replacement would have the old number lined out and the new number stamped above or below it, but NOT over the original number. This was even done for such subsidiary components such as barrel bands. I have a Schulz & Larsen M69 with a heavy barrel fitted to an Imperial Gew 98 system, and the magazine floor plate has been renumbered in this way, demonstrating that they were very picky in this matter, even for a component that has nothing to do with shooting quality.
So a German rifle with a bolt that is not numbered to the barrel/receiver assembly is not original and also not armoury-fitted but a mix made by persons unknown. Even worse is when it has been force-matched by erasing the original number and stamping on another number. Erasing and overstamping of numbers on pressure-bearing components (barrel, receiver, bolt) is also an offence in Germany unless carried out by a licensed gunsmith and the functionality of the complete rifle has been validated by re-proofing. In which case, the rifle will bear new proof marks, which are also disliked by collectors. So I would stay clear of a German rifle with erased and overstamped numbers, as the collector value is kaputt. Shooter value is also low as the proof has been invalidated by what is, in effect, falsified numbering.
In this connection, I am amused by the preoccupation of the collectors of US rifles who agonize over whether a particular subsidiary component such as a barrel band is the "correct" one for Wednesday afternoon on the 10th of Octebruary 1944 when, as has already been pointed out, the functionally vital components of barrel, action body, and bolt are not number-matched. And before US-fans jump all over me, I hasten to add that my US rifles are my best milsurp shooters, regardless of numbering and "correctness".
Patrick,Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
You've passed along what I believe to be one of the best definitions of 'Preoccupation' that I've stumbled across...
Preoccupation:
collectors of US rifles who agonize over whether a particular subsidiary component such as a barrel band is the "correct" one for Wednesday afternoon on the 10th of Octebruary 1944
AH HA :rolleyes:
That nails it down to the barrel band being made on the 'Afternoon Shift' 10th Oct 44
Now just need to find which station and who was working the required machinery! ;)
Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777