Ecuador 88 Commission Rifle Carbine Conversion

Mike knows I like unusual stuff and he alerted me to this one about a month ago and I was finally able to meet up with him yesterday to pick it up. His daughter is actually the one that said this one is right up my alley. Thanks Mike and daughter.

He sent me some pics and I spent about a month researching this monstrosity. Not a whole lot out there on it but three days ago I finally found a confirmation photo on the net.

Details are a bit sketchy but this is what I was able to find out. Ecuador purchased thousands of 88 Commission rifles off of Germany in the early 1900's. Out of these, a fair number were either converted prior to sale or sent back and converted after the initial sale around 1904. These were arsenal converted although not exactly sure which arsenal. There were two German firms which are suspected but Belgium and the Czechs are also rumored. The barrels were replaced, the sleeves were cut at the point where the cut is under the rear band, a new nose cap with no bayonet lug was fitted. The cleaning rod channel was filled and side mount sling swivels were fitted with the original rear sling swivel hole filled. I cannot confirm the cutting of the sleeve as I cannot get anything apart at this point. A cavalry sight is installed so it would seem to me they may simply have fitted cavalry sleeves. The receiver was scrubbed on many of these including this one. Some markings are there, the serial number remains but is faint. Many of the German proofs are present. There is nothing on the stock that I can see from a manufacturer.

Ecuador did not take very good care of these. They stored them in a huge pile in a large room. They were purchased by a single company and imported them in the early 2000's. Nearly all are in rough shape. This one looks horrible. All the screws are rusted tight. Stock seems solid for the most part but is missing some chunks at the butt and the for end. Many of these did not have their bolt heads and the bores were junk. This one is complete although a bit stiff which I suspect is just from the old grease. It also surprisingly has a decent bore. It was not however upgraded to the "S" standard so I'm going to have trouble firing it due to a lack of ammo.

My book on the 88 Commission rifle mentions the Ecuador purchase but not the conversion. I was able to find one website which lists it as a legitimate 4th version of 88 Commission Carbine. Some argument if it is a musketoon, short rifle or carbine but this specific site says it meets all criteria for carbine, mainly due to the side mount sling swivels

I'm not sure what I am going to do with it. I have a very strong desire to neutralize the rust and remove it but I do not want t destroy the rifle in the process. I suspect it is going to have a length of time with penetrating oil on the screws. Until I can get it apart, not a whole lot I can do other than wipe down the stock a bit. There is significant pitting along the wood line, especially along the barrel sleeve. Magazine has a decent amount of surface rust I can probably get off without taking the rifle apart but I'd like to put the whole thing in an electrolysis bath.

It does have a lot of character as is however. Introducing the beast:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...s3qbu4yl-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...620rukkt-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...qaya0jsl-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...pcqsc7ih-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nawcfckq-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t8ragioe-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lwgtzxk2-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fg3ftiit-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6kp4cwbe-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a4w4bmdy-1.jpg

Yep she's a bit rough. I'm sure by the time you are finished it will be beautiful and we will all be wondering how we didn't see it's potential. :D

Yup, pretty rough. I know you already know how it's going to turn out though, after the last one...

Neat little carbine. Looks like it is a good time for Commission Rifles at the moment, I have two M13s on the way (don't worry there will be photos and details).

Just a small point for the ammo. The 'S' marking on a Commission 88 doesn't mean it is safe to shoot .323 bullets. Most 'S' marked barrels actually have the original barrel still (which generally measures .3215). My personal loading for Commission rifles of all sorts is a 170grn .321 bullet (i.e. 32 Winchester Special bullet), under 40grns of IMR 3031. Haven't done much testing with the accuracy yet, but it has shown plenty of potential and I intend to have that same load out shooting today (this time for a 88/05).

I highly recommend slugging your bore before shooting any Commission 88 rifle, it can provide very useful knowledge as to what type of bullet to use. Remember some even have a .316 bore (Czech barrel) and I definitely wouldn't want to send a .323 bullet down that!

Lots of incorrect information posted here . First the German military NEVER sold any Gew-88's in the 1900's , that is bad information put out by someone who made a some mistaken conclusions based on bad information . The Gew-88 was Germany's most numerous and main battle rifle until 1911 . Other than some commercial sales from Steyr of 1894 dated rifles , the 88's went to SA from the Czechs in the late 20's and early 30's . There are NO S marked barrels , only the receiver . So if the barrels was changed , the S on the receiver means nothing . The Gew-88 was never meant to fire a .323 dia bullet , ever . The Bullet in the S ammo was .321 dia and designed to be fired in the Gew-88 with it's .321 bore . The S is not a bore size . The Z marking IS a bore size , .323 , but it was still for the .321 dia bullet . The SA rifles will be found with more original .321 German barrels than the extra small .3165 Czech barrels . Yes the .321 dia Win special bullet is a good one to use in .321 88's . I put out that info over 20 years ago , when everybody was just sure the rifles all had .318 bores [ which they NEVER used ] .

This one is worse than the Belgian so a bigger challenge. Not in a hurry to shoot it.

According to Paul S. Scarlata, Ecuador obtained their first 88 Commission rifles in the late 1890's. These were said to be ex-German rifle's, not contracted through Steyr. Numbers were around 11,000. Now when you consider that the 98 was entering service and Germany was not at war, they would have excess 88's for disposal with production ceasing in 1897 and with over 2 million made. So you decide, Paul Scarlata, a recognized author/expert on the 88 Commission rifles or Bob. I'm going with Paul. We've had this discussion before. The first order for South America was from Peru, was through Steyr and predated the Ecuador purchase.

Great news. I got it apart. Photos probably tomorrow on interior and the state of the barrel shroud. There were three casualties, one fatal. The screw in the nose cap would not move, screwdriver, vise grips, etc so drilled it out. In the process the nose cap suffered some minor damage. The stock has some dry rot and the end cap area was very weak, a third of it had already rotted away and when I pulled the barrel out, it snapped off. Barrel shroud was indeed cut under the barrel band. It looks like they installed a smaller tube inside the two sections. Not sure how it is held together, rust may be hiding spot welds. The rust underneath is pretty bad on the shroud but doesn't appear to have gone through or weakened it significantly. I did not try taking the shroud off. Will wait until after electrolysis to attempt that. There is actually a 1 inch square of good bluing under there. The rest is orange. Receiver is pretty good, only one small area of significant pitting that I saw. Didn't mess with it much it was covered with liquid wrench and I was doing my best to not get filthy. Wife says I failed anyway.

Tomorrow I'm going to set up my electrolysis bath and get it cooking.

Hardly an expert , that guy has done more damage to the truth in the last 10 years [ at $200.00 an article ] . He has NO real rifles and does not read German . Production end was 1899 . The German military said it was their main rifle until 1911 , just look at the original records [ PS did not ] . 98 production was slow at first . There are no German records showing any Military Gew-88 sales in 1900's , but there are Czech records showing the sales in 1929 to 1934 . The whole 1900 sales bs started because all the rifles from SA were Gew-88s , no 88/05 , The rifles had unit markings from front line units , and some people did not know there were still more Gew-88's than 88/05's in German service [ on their books ] at the start of WWI . Yes Gew-98's did replace 88's early in the top units , but those rifles were not sold off , they went into reserve and then to Austria in WWI , then to SA after the war .

Sorry Bob, sticking with Paul. He has documentation, you don't.

To be fair, Paul does have many things in his books which makes me question the quality of his info. For example his book on Mannlichers he has a improperly loaded Mannlicher clip in a photo. He does mention several times that he uses others collections to get his data, which generally means he isn't a expert in the subject himself.

With Mannlichers and Commission rifles I take all data with a grain of salt, as there is so much misinformation floating around it gets hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I have four separate sources that list the sale of the rifles from Germany to Ecuador between 1898 and 1904. The exact date is in question, the time frame or the seller is not. These sources include the importer who purchased them and got his information from Ecuador. These same sources also indicate that Ecuador returned rifles to the Czech's to be rebarrelled when they became worn out. The new barrels were kept in the same original caliber as the initial sale rifles. What is also not clear is whether the carbines were part of the original sale or a secondary sale. Granted not a lot of information out there but there is at least some documentation for this and oddly enough, some of what Bob believes fits in, the involvement of the Czech's for one. What he believes was a sale was instead a refurbishment.

But really, I didn't start this thread to turn into another one of the senseless 88 Commission rifle arguments. I wanted to show a little known example and my efforts to stabilize and restore it.

In that note, I cleaned and washed the stock. Most of it is solid with the exception of the front 6 inches. Seems OK but shows indications of some dry rot on the interior. Does not extend to the exterior of the wood. A lot of the dents worked themselves out without me doing anything other than running hot water in the shower on it. Still plenty left. A few things showed up, a pair of crowns on the underside behind the trigger guard. Faint but there. There is a A J carved into the butt and an A carved into the middle of the stock. I noticed the A's but not the J prior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

indications of some dry rot on the interior. Does not extend to the exterior of the wood.

---

So, what did you do with the other? Are you going to do it to this one as well? You injected something...?

I thought about that but I'm going to wait and see what it feels like after the oil is out. I did inject the other one with wood petrifier and it worked real well. I'm thinking something will be necessary because something has to be strong enough to hold the nose cap on. I can't get the stuff due to the holiday anyway. I think I had to throw it away after the first use, hardens in the bottle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I think I had to throw it away after the first use, hardens in the bottle.

---

Probably, then you can guarantee your results. Otherwise we hold onto this stuff for years and wonder why it isn't up to snuff. Anyway, we'll see as it proceeds.

Stock is cleaned. Metal is cleared of the vast majority of rust and it's put back together, oiled. Coated with BLO and it looks as bad as it did before I started. Man this is an ugly rifle. But I like it. Still need to fix the end cap and I think I will get something to fill the pitting in the shroud. Rust did eat it's way through it with two pin head sized holes.

It does look a little better. It is stabilized anyway.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rmyegwkr-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g3yohoka-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...iylxe47w-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a2mwei6p-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...amxyoz9e-1.jpg

It DOES look better now.

Thinking about doing a full restore on this. JB weld the shroud, smooth and krylon black paint. Steam the stock, replace bad wood (cut it out). Polish the metal, cold blue. It's in poor condition now so not likely to harm the value such as it is.

What do you guys think?

The receiver would have originally been in the white and the barrel shroud blued. I personally would try to replicate that (I also love in the white parts despite the lack of practicality).

As to what's been pointed out, yes, I'd do it up. It doesn't have much left as is. The other one turned out fine...after all. Don't know about the krylon, perhaps a creme blue?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

The receiver would have originally been in the white and the barrel shroud blued. I personally would try to replicate that (I also love in the white parts despite the lack of practicality).

---

I was thinking about in the white for the receiver. The shroud can't be blued. JB weld only comes in grey as far as I know and even to just fill the pitting, I'll have a quarter inch to an eighth showing above the wood line to fill the rust. If I could get a different color of a fill material, I'd be willing to give it a shot. I just figured if I was going all out I'd fill in the big dents also. The paint color I'd be willing to look into also. I used black on that old Swedish Mauser I restored and it looked pretty good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

JB weld only comes in grey as far as I know

---

Right, guess it's krylon after all. It'll look fine.

I have a small pile of Gew88 barreled receivers from Centerfire Systems blowout. Rifles only, give me an email.

I found another product instead of the JB weld. PC-7 and it is a dark grey/black color. I may try cold blue with that and see what it looks like.

Hard to believe for me I have left a rifle sit untouched for over a week. Finally found some time today to start working on the stock. I've decided to go the full hard clean on this one. Spent some time both steaming and sanding the stock and put it through two more citristrip cycles. I think this makes 5 now. Currently hitting it with wood bleach and will let it dry and then finish sanding it. Not much improvement with it so far. It's just beat to crap.

Debating on hitting the metal with vinegar or not. Probably will if I can find it. I'd like to make sure all the rust is out of the pitting before using the JB weld substitute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Debating on hitting the metal with vinegar or not.

---

Or something, yes all the rust needs to be cleaned out.

I did electrolysis but it just doesn't look clean. The stock looks better now.

How about some muriatic acid? Apply with a q tip and work slowly and carefully, and out in the open air.

Had a rather unexpected weird thing happen last nigh. I got the stock dried out after the cleaning and bleaching and put the JB weld fill on it and thought I'd see how the area by the tang looked and put the barreled action in it. Looked dosn the barrel and the front sight is skewed a quarter inch to the left. Thought the shroud had magically unscrewed itself after failing to do so with my vise and wrenches but the rear sight was in place. Turns out they never soldiered the two cut sections together and with a little effort I was able to remove the front half of the shroud. barrel underneath is in great shape with no pitting at all but some surface rust, probably from the water that got trapped in there after the electrolysis. So I may try to get the dents out of the shroud now. Looks like a 1 inch copper pipe might fit.

1 inch copper pipe proved to be too small to do anything other than getting temporarily stuck at the dent.

Well, when using a mandrell you need to drive it in to get it lodged and then pound the dents flat from the outside. Then the mandrell will move. They don't pop out voluntarily. Personally I'd make one from steel to about four inch length and tight fit, then thread a hole in the center for a solid rod. Then carry on a just described, I think copper pipe too dainty.

The problem is the barrel is still attached so it has to be a pipe. I just tried the copper as I thought it would be a good fit. It wasn't Not tight enough to pound out the dents. Probably a good 32nd of an inch all the way around. I'm a carpenter, so my house is not a bastion of metal or pipes for that matter. I do have a set of pipe clamps I could check the diameter. It's bathing in vinegar at the moment.

My recommendation for getting the jacket off the receiver if you haven't already is to apply a bit of heat by the threads with a propane torch. Nothing ridiculous (i.e. colour changing), but it should be able to cause the jacket to expand and the threads on the barrel to stay the same size (provided you don't heat it for eternity). Just put the action in a vice, and try turning the jacket off well heat is being applied, it should cause it to go.

I may try that. I would like to ensure no rusting on the barrel. Exposed portion looks good now, no pitting at all but that bottom 10 inches I'd still like to know for sure.

I never could get the full jacket off. Front half came off, barrel looked good, sprayed a tone of Remoil in the other half. Not sealing it back together so I can monitor it. This is the near end product. The stock had three treatments of citristrip, then was steamed, then sanded a bit, then two more treatments of citristrip and one of wood bleach. It has one coat of BLO on it. Metal was all put in an electrolysis bath which got the rust off but left a coating of grey on it. Polished the metal a bit with fine sandpaper, packed the bottom half of the shroud in PC7 which dried a dark grey. Bare metal with the exception of the receiver and bolt were cold blued and then steel wooled to a light uniform color. The PC7 blended in pretty well. I did not attack the dents in the shroud, may at a later date but for now I'm OK with it. Located an old Spanish type mauser sling for it that looks age appropriate and here it is for your viewing pleasure, still a bit harsh on the eyes I'm afraid. My main goal became stabilizing the rust rather than the full restore which would have proven difficult anyway due to the condition. I did sand the stock but not heavily, main reason was the stock bolt which was rusted very badly and sticking way outside the wood line on the left side. I also evened the two sides along the barrel channel between the two bands as it was choppped up very badly. I still need to get a screw and fix the end cap.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7pjrcidz-1.jpg

Before

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a4w4bmdy-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...je82x0tk-1.jpg

Before

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...620rukkt-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...vqnwuzd8-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fzpbsdb4-1.jpg

Before

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...s3qbu4yl-1.jpg

Well I am happy that it came out great. Knowing full well all the time an effort you put into that wreck. Will give you $20.00 over what you paid for it now.:D:D

I'd have cleaned it up too. Looks much better.

Update. Son in law worked with a welder to fill the oversized holes I drilled through the nosecap with 50% success. The large hole on the left was filled with no problem. The hole on the right side ended up being filled with flux along with an accidental burn through. With lessons learned, he thinks we will have full success with a second attempt. I also was not happy at all with the light color fill I used. So tonight I experimented and mixed the filler with some dark stain. It's been two hours and it does seem to be getting hard. Wasn't sure what the combo would do together but there are no more light spots on the stock now which I like. I'll probably sand it up this weekend and know for sure if it worked or not. I have no BLO on this yet. I had thought I put a coat on but did not knowing that I still had one area behind the tang to fill. It has darkened up a bit. Oil continuing to come to the surface. On a side note, I wrapped the fore end of the rifle with scotch tape when I glued in the small piece of wood in the cleaning rod channel. The tape drew out and lightened the wood. It has since evened out and I don't know what the practical application would be but scotch tape seems to draw out oil.

Stain mixed in with the PC7 met with only limited success. It did not fully harden. Thin areas did not adhere well. Deep areas did better and hardened better, not sure why. Could simply be my perception of the hardness and the thicker mass simply is more cohesive.

It may harden more over time, probably will.

I ripped it all out and put the PC7 in it. I popped the receiver out and the filler at the end of the tang just fell out. Experiment a failure. I may have said the wrong thing earlier. I used JB weld wood weld with the stain. The PC7 is almost if not as dark as the JB weld with the stain in it so just going to try that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Great news. I got it apart. Photos probably tomorrow on interior and the state of the barrel shroud. There were three casualties, one fatal. The screw in the nose cap would not move, screwdriver, vise grips, etc so drilled it out. In the process the nose cap suffered some minor damage. The stock has some dry rot and the end cap area was very weak, a third of it had already rotted away and when I pulled the barrel out, it snapped off. Barrel shroud was indeed cut under the barrel band. It looks like they installed a smaller tube inside the two sections. Not sure how it is held together, rust may be hiding spot welds. The rust underneath is pretty bad on the shroud but doesn't appear to have gone through or weakened it significantly. I did not try taking the shroud off. Will wait until after electrolysis to attempt that. There is actually a 1 inch square of good bluing under there. The rest is orange. Receiver is pretty good, only one small area of significant pitting that I saw. Didn't mess with it much it was covered with liquid wrench and I was doing my best to not get filthy. Wife says I failed anyway.

Tomorrow I'm going to set up my electrolysis bath and get it cooking.

---

Well done on taking this rifle on, all credit to you. The wood damage is unfortunate, but when it's reached this point of decay and become one with the corrosion, it's beyond saving.

Had you not taken this rifle on, it would have gone on someone's wall as a relic and carried on towards oblivion.

I look forward to your restoration updates...

Are replacement parts easy enough to locate?

Only replacement part needed was a screw for the nosecap and already have one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I ripped it all out and put the PC7 in it. I popped the receiver out and the filler at the end of the tang just fell out. Experiment a failure. I may have said the wrong thing earlier. I used JB weld wood weld with the stain. The PC7 is almost if not as dark as the JB weld with the stain in it so just going to try that.

---

Why don't you let me splice a piece of real wood in there for you? The offers there..:thup:

You give Jeff a challenging job he will get it done.

Thanks for the offer but the missing areas are not very big and as rough as the stock is, I think it will blend in pretty well when I'm done. If not, I'll bring it to Oaks sometime.

Offer stands anytime...

As I wrapped up the East India Company Musket, this one was hiding behind it in the corner and I brought it out again yesterday. The nose cap area is what was bugging me the most about this. Failed attempt at using fill on it just left it sitting. I finally decided I needed to act. Cut the end off yesterday morning and attached a new tip. Cut both at a 45 degree angle to give it more surface area and gorilla glued it together. After drying for two hours, took it out of the clamps and drilled a 5/16th hole in it for a solid dowel. Went in from the end so you can't see that. After two more hours of drying, I started the forming and fitting and got it all finished up except for some slight touch ups by the afternoon. As this stock is reddish in color under all that dark, and the only piece of wood I could find in the house big enough to serve the purpose was cherry, that's what I used. I haven't started trying to color match. I need to find some of those dark stain sticks everyone is talking about. Photos will follow soon, they are on my phone and I need to transfer and upload. I was very concerned about the strength of the repair as gluing end wood together isn't recommended but this held up to all my filing, cutting, grinding and sanding without giving at all. Now I just have to find the nose cap screw that I know I have but misplaced, drill and tap the nose cap and it's basically restored except for the cosmetics. Cap fits nice and tight now so it's on.

Kind of interesting way of clamping it but it worked. Took two clamps each pushing in perpendicular directions.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../dABw5pL-1.jpg

The dowel in place.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Ig3Qtp2-1.jpg

And three shots of all but the finish sanding done.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../l0XsmfL-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../MYTUKNH-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../JzlUibz-1.jpg

It just needs a little more sanding to get them lined up a bit better and the glue gone at the joint.

Looking great, excellent job bringing that back!

Went to Walmart for bird seed and checked their stains out. They had both minwax and Rust-Oleum brands. Never used Rust-Oleum before but I've had issues with Minwax staining dark and took a chance on a can of Ebony Rust-Oleum. Seems to work better than the Minwax. I still havn't done the final sanding but I thought I's see what the color match would look like. This is a mix of the stain and black sharpie. Looks pretty good. Also made improvements to the East India Musket.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../JSXS8om-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../BbQqsc5-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../agRhC3t-1.jpg

If you want me to refund your money I will :madsmile::madsmile::madsmile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mmppres

If you want me to refund your money I will :madsmile::madsmile::madsmile:

---

No thanks. I'm good. It's still an ugly little rifle but I've grown fond of it. I can't find that screw you gave me for the nose piece. I need to start going through my mugs and cups I guess, see if I dropped it into one of them. That's the last piece to finish it. It should turn up.