How Could Anyone Be So Stupid?

As a self admitted brass scavenger I found these rounds in the dud bucket at my range. I can only guess that some self centered idiot found these in grandpa's basement when cleaning it out. Look at the condition of these rounds. Covered with tarnish and decay. Who would be stupid enough to put rounds in this condition into a rifle and attempt to fire them. I can only hope that if any did go off that they weren't in grandpa's 1903 that is now leaning in the corner of a closet somewhere uncleaned. My hope is that they were fired in a new modern expensive tacti-cool hunting rifle which is now standing in the corner of a closet rotting away from within.

In case you cant read the headstamps one is WRA Co. 30 G. 1906, a Winchester made round that is from the initial change over of the cartridge to a 150gr spitzer. The other 2 are U.S.C. Co. 18, made by United States Cartridge Co. and are WWI surplus dated 1918. U.S.C. Co. was bought out by Winchester after WWI and that headstamp disappeared forever after 1918. USC Co. provided 65% of the US small arms ammo supplied during WWI.

Sorry for the rant but some things just get to me and make me think about the loss of history. These would be special to someone who actually cares, instead of some spoiled teen or 20 something who thought he scored because just found some free rounds to pop off at the range. - Bill

That's probably exactly what happened, or someone found them a a show and thought they were a great deal. If they work, great...if not...then right where you found them. Grandpa's gun was likely a mint '95 Winchester in .30 cal or a 1903 Springfield, first year of production...with a mint bore.

I have a U.S.C. co cartridge, I found it afield in Ft Lewis WA out on the range in a pile of like brass. It will have lay there since firing at that time frame.

Good eye.
"One mans trash is another's treasure"

The rounds must be assumed to be live, as the failure to ignite could simply be caused by a firing pin that was a trifle short or slowed down by crud, or a chamber with excessive headspace, so that the case was pushed forwards rather than struck firmly. It is therefore gravely irresponsible (and may even be a criminal offence, depending on where you live) to discard such ammo. In another rifle, with a slightly harder strike, or a firing pin that is a gnat's whicker longer, those rounds might fire.

I was shooting close to our discard barrel on our range years ago and saw a live .22 on top of things...with further searching found over 100 and a handful of live .38 Spl also. I took the info to members of the committee with some alarm only to find out they didn't care at all. They didn't share the view that these could go off when the trash was burned...not worried at all.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

The rounds must be assumed to be live, as the failure to ignite could simply be caused by a firing pin that was a trifle short or slowed down by crud, or a chamber with excessive headspace, so that the case was pushed forwards rather than struck firmly. It is therefore gravely irresponsible (and may even be a criminal offence, depending on where you live) to discard such ammo. In another rifle, with a slightly harder strike, or a firing pin that is a gnat's whicker longer, those rounds might fire.

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Patrick these rounds were found in the dud bucket. For the language barrier translation that would be the bucket for rounds that failed to fire. These were not in the trash or in the spent round buckets. Once spent rounds make it into the brass bucket they become property of the range officers which they in turn sell to a smelter to reclaim the brass. Failed to fire rounds make it to their very own bucket and become the property of who ever has the guts to take them home to break them down for reloading. Part of the range officers duties are to make sure no unfired rounds make it to the smelter which could be very nasty I'm sure.

Rest assured no local ordinances were violated in this instance. As for the firing pin strikes they were solid and deep. These particular rounds had been poorly stored over the last 99 or so years, exhibited extreme effects of humidity and had very little chance of firing which was my initial point. Why would anyone be so stupid as to try to fire antique rounds in this condition. - Bill

I recently found 9 3 round m1917 revolver clips with 26 rounds (one missing) of .45ACP cartridges made by the same company, U.S.C. Co dated 1918 in the range turn in bucket. I would not shoot them but I guess a returning soldier probably brought his M1917 Revolver home from WWI and a relative no longer wanted the ammunition and clips.

--fjruple

I can only hope that if any did go off that they weren't in grandpa's 1903 that is now leaning in the corner of a closet somewhere uncleaned.

My Brother and his buddies did that to my mint 1937 K98 all matching when I went off into the Army. Took it out and blew about 25 corrosive rounds through it. Threw it in the closet uncleaned. I came home on leave like 2 years later you can only envision what the bore looked like. I don't trust him with any of my firearms to this day and that was close to 40 years ago.

You speak of rounds left at the range years ago at a club I belonged to a chap by the name of Robby Holthouse was mowing the 600yd at Harvey Rifle Club (Closed years ago) when the blade struck the rear of the case right across the primer which set the 7.62 round off.
Now Robby was very hard of hearing but he certainly heard that one the result was a person who never mowed the mounds again and a chunk taken out of the mower's cast body pan which ended its career at the range.

Thing that scares me the most is newbie shooters that one may be coaching or have brought dads old ammo he had in the war to shoot off when they get a click then immediately cycle the bolt to eject the mis-fired cartridge whilst we beat a hasty retreat away from the errant round. Then when all is safe having to explain the procedure again to them with what to do in the event of a mis fire as they always say "Oh forgot to do that, I thought it would be Ok?"
Yep we all know what thought thought it was......

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Thing that scares me the most is newbie shooters that one may be coaching or have brought dads old ammo he had in the war to shoot off when they get a click then immediately cycle the bolt to eject the mis-fired cartridge whilst we beat a hasty retreat away from the errant round.

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Any trained rifleman would know the drill:

"Misfire - Wait One"

tick, tick, tick.... (hope lots) :)

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

They didn't share the view that these could go off when the trash was burned...not worried at all.

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They where right not to be concerned. Ammunition is MUCH less dangerous outside the chamber of a firearm, not even enough energy to puncture though drywall six inches away.
This video was made by SAAMI as an aide to firefighters. Shame they wasted all that ammo....

Sporting Ammunition and the Fire Fighter: What Happens When Ammo Burns? - SAAMI - YouTube

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

They where right not to be concerned. Ammunition is MUCH less dangerous outside the chamber of a firearm, not even enough energy to puncture though drywall six inches away.

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I'm sorry but you can show me all the vids you like, I've experienced many things that debunk your video myth. I've been struck by shrapnel from exploding ammo, taken men to get medical attention after pieces of brass cases have penetrated flesh... Less dangerous than in a chamber but still dangerous.

Here is what happens when a whole load of ammunition and stuff goes up., sorry WP I agree with Jim if my house ever went up in flames I would say to the firefighters who rolled up forget it let it burn but keep away just protect the other houses from radiant heat that's if I could not put the conflagration out in the first instance.
The Halifax Explosion 1917 Nova Scotia, Canada - YouTube

The thing that will fly the furthest in a fire is the PRIMER cups.

There is a fair amount of energy stored in the tiny amount of priming compound.

When ammo is "ignited" outside of the confines of a proper chamber, the ignition of the primer WILL start the main powder charge.

HOWEVER, with the case, particularly at the neck, not being constrained by a chamber and the bullet not having to engage any rifling, the main propellant charge is not going to develop anywhere close to 40,000 PSI; just enough to "fizzle" and throw the bullet a few feet, and launch the primer, quite energetically, out of its pocket. A primer leaving a pocket under its own "energy" WILL be a MAJOR eye hazard, traveling with sufficient speed, and thus energy, to destroy an eye or break skin at several feet distance, somewhat like a pellet fired from a decent air-rifle. NOT enough to punch through the side of a steel ammo can, though.

Ammo in steel, Browning-type links behaves a little differently, because the necks are partially constrained by the link. i have seen the aftermath of several of cans of this stuff that was caught in a fire.

The "bullet" side of the can looked like a random cheese grater. Not all of the bullets had fully penetrated even at ZERO distance. The first bullet to exit essentially provided a "vent" that prevented a catastrophic buildup of pressure, i.e. a "cinematic" bomb. The "expended" bullets were to be found only a few feet away. BLANK ammo in "mil-spec" cans, in a fire, is likely to be MUCH more exciting if the heat does not cause the rubber seal to fail, and thus provide a "vent", before the cartridges start to cook off.

There is a reason that even the "Untidy Notions" calls it "safety ammunition".

Black-Powder fueled ammo? A WHOLE different bag. Note that the old "battleships" used (and STILL use) coarsely-granulated Black Powder in their main armaments. Thus, incredibly stringent procedures and very special handling equipment is required to transfer the silk-bagged charges from the magazine up to the turrets. These magazines are usually below the waterline, but a "lucky" torpedo or, as with HMS "Hood", a steeply-plunging AP / HE projectile WILL ruin your day.

Like these poor souls found out in 1989 on the Iowa;
USS Iowa Battleship(BB61) 16 inch guns huge accident (Explosion)1989 4/19 - YouTube

I have no doubt Jim, point being there's no need for extreme responses to unfired cartridges on the ground or in dud boxes.

Cinders, comparing the Mont Blanc which was full of explosives and the Iowa incident which involved something around a 100lbs of BP to small arms ammo isn't a fair comparison,,,Good God man!!!:lol:

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

extreme responses to unfired cartridges on the ground or in dud boxes.

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They were in a burn barrel though...not on the ground. Yes, we've had a lengthy thread here before about this whole thing. I just know that one of my troops would have a story that's unquestionable as he lost the end of his middle finger to an exploding cartridge, down to the bottom of the fingernail. He carried on a served a full service career after...just retired a few years ago.

Yes, BP is a whole nother thing...I have some good (Humorous) stories about that stuff too.

Most nerve racking experience I ever had was being in the middle of a string in a match and the guy next to me was having hang fires, and was way too eager to rack them out.

Realistically I'd guess 10 seconds is safe to at least recock if possible, 30 seconds to open the bolt is what I go with. All when pointed down range of course. Most old stuff I don't see the need to shoot but will admit a friend and I recently sacrificed some GP90 for science, confirming what was found in other videos by Bloke on the Range that those are in fact fully smokeless.

The Mont Blanc was carrying 2,300 tons of picric acid, 200 tons of TNT, 35 tons of high-octane gasoline, and 10 tons of gun cotton. Mixing a cargo of high explosive and high-octane gasoline is not a good idea.

--fjruple

Our SSR's state "In the event a shooter has a mis-fire they will keep the weapon pointed down the range for 30 seconds, after which they will re-cock the weapon and fire again in the event the cartridge does not fire they will leave it for a further 30 seconds after which if it has not fired it will be ejected from the chamber and removed from the firing line and placed in a safe place for disposal of or de-construction by the owner."

While in the US Army in my early years I taught demolitions for the Engineers and we had quite a few folks that could put together any type of explosives for demolition work. The most dangerous I thought was black powder. Static electricity or small spark could set the stuff off when not properly stored. When wet the black powder is useless but when dried out the stuff can be as dangerous as the day as it was made. While being stationed at Ft. Belvoir, VA, then the location of the US Army Engineer School, there was an off post incident where a home was leveled from an explosion. At the time the PLA and other terrorist groups were conducting bombings. The local PD asked us to take a look to see what our opinion was as to the cause of the explosion. Initially the PD thought it was a natural gas explosion but the home had electric heating. We interviewed the home owner who was not home at the time of the explosion as well as his family thankfully. The explosion appeared to have originated in the fireplace of the home owner. The home owner told us that he had the fireplace going and that he and his family put out the fire and left to visit relatives in the area and came home to a police barraged street with their home gone!! In the remains of the home we found a 15 inch Rodman shot, at first I thought it was a 10 inch Rodman shot. I inquired to the home owner if there were any other shells in the fireplace, He said he had purchased two found a local scrap yard and it took three individuals to move them. They weighted about 400 lbs each!! (Powder filled shell only weights 352 lbs) He thought they would be neat to keep the burning logs in his fireplace. Well you guessed it one of the 15inch Rodman shells was not a solid shot but a black powder filled shell. With the continuous heating of the shell the black powder dried out and the heat from the burning logs set it off. We determined that the 15 inch Rodman shells had come from Battery Rodgers which was located in Alexandria VA during the American Civil War or as my Southern comrades would say the War of Northern Aggression. The shells were probably thought to be all solid shot and probably scrapped that way until the local home owner found something neat at the local scrap yard.

--fjruple

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Originally Posted by fjruple

We determined that the 15 inch Rodman shells had come from Battery Rodgers which was located in Alexandria VA during the American Civil War

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So his house was shelled about 160 years after the fact...the last shot fired in the civil war...