Seeking some help in identifying a Model 1917 bayonet marking

G'Day All,

Thanks for reading this. I'm hoping you may be able to assist my fruitless research outcome. I have a Remington Model 1917 bayonet (the successor to the Pattern 1913 bayonet for the Pattern 14 or Rifle No 3 Mk 1 of Commonwealth service.

Photos below show the two sides of the ricasso, with the model, maker and inspection and acceptance stamps. But it's the AD 'Star' on the Pattern 13 scabbard that I'm interested in.

Attachment 84715Attachment 84716Attachment 84717

So, what do you know of the meaning of the "AD Star" stamp in the scabbard?

Grateful for any ideas you may have, thank you.

I'd be sort of interested in what the mark above the 30 indicates

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I'd be sort of interested in what the mark above the 30 indicates

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Peter, that chook (chicken...) looking thing is a bona fide US Inspector's stamp, believe it or not. The 'flaming bomb' (grenade) is the US equivalent of the 'Broad Arrow' in the Commonwealth system. The chook is a stylised bald eagle with the factory inspector's number.

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Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE

Peter, that chook (chicken...) looking thing is a bona fide US Inspector's stamp, believe it or not. The 'flaming bomb' (grenade) is the US equivalent of the 'Broad Arrow' in the Commonwealth system. The chook is a stylised bald eagle with the factory inspector's number.

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The 30 is the year I'm told....... and similar to our reissue dates, I've seen dates from 26 -30

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

The 30 is the year I'm told....... and similar to our reissue dates, I've seen dates from 26 -30

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BD,

As these blades were all made prior to 1918, and taking your guidance there, would you see the '30 (1930) as an inspection for back in service, or perhaps, first issue out of an armoury post WW1?

That's an interesting twist, something to consider.

I think that the chicken and 30 indicates a 30 year old chicken. In fact I probably eat that very chicken in my take-a-way last Friday

You haven't shown us the scabbard mount/mouth-piece. I'm guessing that it's the American M1917 scabbard with either of the 2 versions of mounts/mouth-pieces rather than the British 1907 scabbard used with the Pattern 1913 bayonet. I would speculate that the "AD star" may be a manufacturer's mark of the leather scabbard?

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

You haven't shown us the scabbard mount/mouth-piece. I'm guessing that it's the American M1917 scabbard with either of the 2 versions of mounts/mouth-pieces rather than the British 1907 scabbard used with the Pattern 1913 bayonet. I would speculate that the "AD star" may be a manufacturer's mark of the leather scabbard?

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Thank you F10. I'll post photos in response in another comment.

In response to F10's valid query, here are the photos:

Attachment 84720Attachment 84721

My take on the bayonet/scabbard combo is a US Model 1917 Remington bayonet, coupled with a US made, UK owned Pattern 1913 scabbard, for a previous P14/Rifle No 3 Mk 1 bayonet. My understanding is that the UK owned many P14/Rifle No 3 Mk 1 post WWI and also bought many US M1917s around 1940 when a great deal of materiel and arms were lost at Dunkirk. In UK service, the US style wire belt hanger was incompatible with the Pattern 37 webbing, which had a webbing frog and hence required a round or teardrop shaped button to attach -as this scabbard has.

A good thought on the maker, though I haven't seen such an obvious maker's mark on any of my other US Springfield, M1917 or Garand bayonet scabbards. Hence, my thought was that this stamping was a unit ownership mark.

Any other ideas from the audience? :)

Could it be one of the Indian State Forces as discussed fairly regularly on the forum. I seem to recall that AL was Alambrarahad

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I seem to recall that AL was Alambrarahad

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Peter,

Did a quick search on Alambrahad and nothing came up (probably my poor search technique) and looked for P14 and M1917 in Indian service. Zip.

The AD is still curious, to me. Can't quite accept the likelihood of it being manufacturer rather than Unit.

WIll keep digging...

The U.K. manufactured 1907 scabbards usually have the leather marked on the back of the scabbard which denotes the company that did the leatherwork, so I understand, but not necessarily the metal parts. You could well be right about it being a unit marking but what I've no idea.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I'd be sort of interested in what the mark above the 30 indicates

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The first bayonets produced by Remington on the US contract in September 1917 used the standard British marks as shown above. These then had the British proofs marked out and the US marking added as shown above. Why the British proof was used is not known as the British inspectors were no longer at the plant. A very few dated 10 17 have also been noted. Some of the 9 17 and 10 17 marked bayonets do not have the British proofs on the ricasso, but instead have the standard US marks of the Ordnance Shell and Flame, US, and a stylized eagle head with number underneath. The Ordnance Department adopted the eagle head over number mark in 1917 so that the individual inspectors could be made responsible for their work. It may also be noted that neither of the Remington specimens shown above have the typical British X mark denoting the convex side of the blade for bend tests, although it appears on later production.

Bayo Points 10

This is a knife/sword bayonet manufactured beginning 1917 and was used on several firearms to WWII.
They are very similar to their predecessors: the British P1907 (muzzle-ring is closer to the blade rib and does not have U.S. markings) and the US/British Model 1913/17 (has the same dimensions, but does not have the U.S. Ordnance Bomb on the ricasso). The Model 1913/17 will interchange with the Model 1917 but not with the P1907.
These were manufactured for the U.S. "Enfield" or "Eddystone" .303" caliber rifle (not to be confused with the British No.1 SMLE series which accepts the British P1907 Bayonet).
Bayonet examples made in the U.S. are stamped with model date "1917" over the manufacturer's stamp (in this case REMINGTON in a circle). Reverse is stamped with the U.S. Military "ordnance bomb" (aka "flaming onion") logo above "U.S."; to the left is an "eagle-head" over a date of manufacture (in this case 1929); to the right is an "X" presumed to be a testing or proof mark (perhaps a bending test as with the British counterpart).
Manufacturers were Remington and Winchester (the latter being quite scarce). Blade is made of steel, grips are of wood with two horizontal grooves cut into the sides; pommel will have an "oil-hole."

Scabbards were either green (olive-drab) fiberglass with steel throat or green leather body with steel throat, drag, and belt hook.

http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/us1917b1.htm

From what i found in my searches it that it could be a proof mark and the inspectors initials.

"...to the left is an "eagle-head" over a date of manufacture (in this case 1929)..."

Onefastokie,

Thanks for the great wrap up. This info would be of great help to others, I'm sure. Not everyone would have such an appreciation for the details as you've presented. Well done.

A query that bothers me that you might be able to assist with: The US only made the P14 and M1917 between 1916 and 1918. At the end of WW1, the M1917 was considered obsolete and stored as a second line reserve. That makes me wonder why there would be a mark suggesting a manufacture date of 1929?

Could it be that these eagle marks are:

1. annotated with the Inspector's personal ID number (hence, this bloke was "Number 29" in the Remington factory, or
2. that the date of inspection was 1929, for whatever reason the bayonet was being assessed within US service?

Curious, your thoughts would be most helpful on this.

Thank you again.

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Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE

Could it be that these eagle marks are:

1. annotated with the Inspector's personal ID number (hence, this bloke was "Number 29" in the Remington factory...

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Yes I believe this is the case...a bit like the German WaA inspectors who had their own individual WaA number.