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As the thread, i just purchased my 3rd No1Mk3, 41 lithgow complete except it has had the barrel re-crowned. I have never seen a 41 Lithgow that had everything MA or MA41 marked i picked it up (helps i had a 41 bayonet to go on it). Pretty much the only reason i bought it as it was a 41 YOM
It also has the MA41 cutoff fitted, which i have not come across. Other thana c ouple of statement that MA41 cutoffs exist, i havn'
t found to much info on them
Are they a relatively common item?
Not overly common but by no means rare. Probably about as common as your rifle.
I must be living in the wrong area then, every 41 lithgow i have seen has been butchered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer
Be another 10 years before i see another i guess
Hi Bushy, my MA 41 No 1 MK 3 has the slot for the cutoff but no cutoff and it isn't butchered still all original
Dick
But also keep in mind, MkIII 41 actions are far less in numbers than a MkIII*
I have never worked out why in 1941 they turned out MK 3 no star actions with the extra machining of the cutoff slot, strange
Dick
They were producing MkIII's with cutoff right up to that time. Mid 1941 is the transition from MkIII to MkIII*
I have seen a few MA41 marked cutoffs. My 1941 has one.
Most of the 1941 MK111 that I see are either missing the cutoff or have been messed with and chopped down for hunting rifles.
What is unknown and will probably stay that way, is the quantities of parts, including bodies, that sat in storage, not quite finished until needed, or accepted and just placed into store.
The final factory mark is supposed to be there at acceptance, but at what stage was it applied?
Because of the method of production, runs of parts would be scheduled, machinery tools and gauges allocated and materials sourced. ONE component; as many machines, dies, gauges, tools etc, that it took to finish the job. This was the 19th Century way, as re-imagined by the lads at Pratt and Whitney.
Given a part was not completed until it had passed ALL inspections, at every stage right through to heat-treatment and surface finishing, there would have probably been a zillion carefully labeled boxes of funny-looking metal bits stacked up in the store, or in the feeder galleries adjacent to the machine floors. A classic is barrels: At each stage, appropriate stamps were applied to each workpiece as it proceeded down the line. If a machining operation, like profiling, skimmed off previous markings, the critical ones were reapplied along with the next inspector's mark. That way, if the "job card" in a box of unfinished barrels went missing, the inspectors could fairly quickly work out to what stage they had been machined.
And almost all churned out on odd looking, purpose-built machines, driven by overhead belts, all initially powered by steam.
And then there are the Lithgow rifles that shuffled between variants.
Start building Mk111s, and marked as such, then as the war gets more demanding, drop all of the "fruit" and make Mk111* variants. Did it matter that they had a room full of finished Mk111 bodies, complete with the slot for the cut-off? Nope. Just leave those bits off and maybe fit a fore-end that covered the slot, or maybe not. Bash a "*" after the "lll" on the stock ferrule side and away you go.
After the shooting stopped, things got very slow. The system reverted to the "proper" Mk 111 variant. So, if they had a bunch of bodies with the cut-off machining and a * stamped on them, they had to have the * cancelled.
Volley sights? What is the latest date seen on a genuine, "un-restored" Lithgow mk111? Supplementary question: Did Lithgow make differently graduated dial plates for Mk6 and, after the "restoration", Mk7 ammo? I have never seen the dial drawing(s), just those for the pointer and the rear aperture.
The Brits also had to deal with all this caper, plus a plethora of upgraded vintage rifles with multiple stars stamped on them, all whilst trying to put a new rifle into production, on a fairly constrained budget.
Wonder what muffets survey shows on thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Homer
Probably very little.
Do you have some doubt?
Bin O has hit the nail on the head once again (thread 9). Car plants operated like this all the time. Model change-over points are notorious! Trying to pin a date or chassis/serial number to a change point is a lost cause in spite of what the literature says. MGB reverse lights and trim changes and Mini Mk1 to 2 changes are just as mysterious! The GPMG L7 change from A1 to A2 at the factory...... impossible to identify from factory engraved designation and/or serial number. Like the change from Mk3 to 3*, it seems that although the L7 gun was nominally an A2, it came as an 'almost' A2 but with lots of old A1 parts. So we just upgraded them as and when!
Added later as an afterthought. The UK MoD found that they had a load of obsolescent L4A1 Brens in store in the UK and Far East that were perfectly serviceable except for the defective combined magazine/holding open catches. So in the mid 60's they contracted with RSAF to remanufacture the special-to-type A1 mag catches. Zillions of the mags in the system so it meant that these otherwise OK but obsolescent guns could go out to the ar5e-end units. I only ever saw a few of these A1 guns at some back-end training unit near Winchester plus some Cadet Forces but they were still going strong in the 80's or so. The real irony to this later was that when the useless HOD part of the catch failed you weren't allowed to just disable THAT part and retain the mag catch part. Nope......., it ALL had to be serviceable. Ordnance logic for you
All the 1941 Lithgows i have owned had MA41 marked cutoff plates, all the other Lithgows MkIIIs had either a MA or a MA with date that matched, imo Lithgow produced MkIIIs with cutoffs up till the change on 1941
That's how I understand it.
Even in my limited collecting time, I have never seen any cutoffs past the mid 1941 serial number range.
Out of curiosity what other dates or marks on Lithgow cutoffs have you see?Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thBatt
I have seen small & large Lithgow star, MA, MA 38 and MA 41.
I would have to look through all of my cutoffs to see if there are any other dates.
I recall MA37, MA38 and MA41. I'd love to throw an MA40 in there but my memory is not clear on that. Might be a phantom.
When I get a chance I will look and see what my 1940 has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer
Pretty much the same as what you just listed, cant really recall any other year stamp other than the late 30s & 40s, both my 35s had just MA. I have a 39 that has a cutoff plate fitted coming, will check that when it arrives.Quote:
Originally Posted by ufo8mydog
Although tangential to this thread, here's an MKL article on trials rifles cut-offs..
No. 4 Mk I (T), ex-Trials Rifle - Cut-off - Off or On? (click here)
This interesting article is accompanied by an extensive photo montage detailing the use and descriptions of the various of magazine cut-offs on Enfield rifles.
Regards,Quote:
Article Extract .....
Still reluctantly struggling with the concept of letting the "Other Ranks" have the option of firing a second shot at their own discretion, cut-offs were introduced by the War Department upon the demise of the Martini-Henry, then retained in one form or another for over half a century.
A MLM Mk II Skeleton Action illustrates how the cut-off was initially configured to employ the rifle as a single loader until the situation required the use of the magazine held in reserve.
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...icture-015.jpg(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...icture-011.jpg
Doug
Unreal, had no idea. For some reason i thought the receivers were milled with the slot but no plates fittedQuote:
Originally Posted by Homer
Makes me wonder if there's a '23 dated cutoff for my other lithgow