Cleaning funnel info?

I'm doing a bit of research on the Commonwealth cleaning funnels that many of us have seen. Used primarily for doing the boiling water clean out in Enfields and other arms.

I'm trying to find out who the manufacturers of them were, where they were made, time periods, different designs, etc.

I'd like to ask a favor of those of you that have them - what are the markings on them?

If there are markings, many of them will have them on the outside flat portion, centered about a centimeter down from the rim. Usually fairly small font.

For example, mine is stamped:

Alfr J Parker
Birmingham
1941

With a broad arrow right below.

Thanks in advance!

No markings on mine belonged to a WWII armourer friend now deceased I feel it may be a home made job or at least made in the workshops as it is quite well done.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

No markings on mine belonged to a WWII armourer friend now deceased I feel it may be a home made job or at least made in the workshops as it is quite well done.

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Thank you, Cinders. Also, thanks for including the photo - your example is quite a bit different from mine. Different joints, larger rolled edge, etc. As you say, still a well made piece of kit.

Armourers used to have to make one of these as part of their apprenticeship in the days JUST before Carlisle came on stream. But there's more to it than that of course. There always is when you're an apprentice! First, you had to draw it all up as part of your engineering drawing lessons and then trace it out, I think it was a truncated cone of sorts, cut out the parts and sweat it all together during the tin-bashing phase with one of those huge copper soldering irons. We had some other items to make and as always, there was a sting in the tail because as you set about soft soldering the next part along, the previous soldered joint would quickly fall apart due to the heat and so on. So then you designed a small jig to hold it together during the process but........... the jig acted as a heat sink so nothing really went well. I have that period of my apprenticeship to blame for the fact that whenever I solder anything the whole thing is virtually dripping with solder - known as 'snotty joints'. As for bending that xxxxxxx pipe over wood formers............. ! Happy days

More information on cleaning accessories with pics are in Jay's sub-forum .. ;)

ANCILLARY ENFIELD EQUIPMENT - Page 2

Pull Through's, Bore Patches, Cleaning Funnel, Wire Gauze, Oil Bottles, Drill Round's and Blanks

Regards,
Doug

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Armourers used to have to make one of these as part of their apprenticeship in the days JUST before Carlisle came on stream. But there's more to it than that of course. There always is when you're an apprentice! First, you had to draw it all up as part of your engineering drawing lessons and then trace it out, I think it was a truncated cone of sorts, cut out the parts and sweat it all together during the tin-bashing phase with one of those huge copper soldering irons. We had some other items to make and as always, there was a sting in the tail because as you set about soft soldering the next part along, the previous soldered joint would quickly fall apart due to the heat and so on. So then you designed a small jig to hold it together during the process but........... the jig acted as a heat sink so nothing really went well. I have that period of my apprenticeship to blame for the fact that whenever I solder anything the whole thing is virtually dripping with solder - known as 'snotty joints'. As for bending that xxxxxxx pipe over wood formers............. ! Happy days

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Now that's very interesting information! That practice probably accounts for funnels that I've heard about that have no information on them, versus the issue funnels that are out there. I went through some training like yours, yep, good times, good times. Just not while you're in them, lol.

Thanks for the information!

---------- Post added at 09:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Badger

More information on cleaning accessories with pics are in Jay's sub-forum .. ;)

ANCILLARY ENFIELD EQUIPMENT - Page 2

Pull Through's, Bore Patches, Cleaning Funnel, Wire Gauze, Oil Bottles, Drill Round's and Blanks

Regards,
Doug

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I'll head on over there, thanks, still getting used to the forum!

I've got a 1950s one which somebody who worked at Shoeburyness gave me. Might be a while until I can get hold of it.

Making your own tools used to be a common part of apprenticeship/trade training here. Afterwards you were permitted to buy them from the company at cost-of-materials price.

I have two, one is I am sure as Peter described, Armourer made with a recessed ledge that sits on the charger bridge and a suitably kinked .303 case as the spout.

The other is manufactured and dated 1944 ... Only issue is finding them!
I will look through my gear at the weekend and photograph them.

Mine is just a small tin funnel that has a cocked spout. Not sure if it's even correct, it's not marked. It sure works well though.

I have two Canadian ones. One has "STELCO OF CANADA LTD." printed on the inside of the funnel. I'd guess it just happened to be on the steel that was used to make it. The other is identical but unmarked.

The one I have is hot dip galvanized. If there are any markings, they are not apparent through the heavy layer of zinc.

There is the leather funnels with the tin spout as well.

Thank you, everyone. Some very interesting information, and if anyone has any pics of theirs, I'd appreciate seeing some more of them. I'll be crossposting on other forums on this same subject, maybe an article will come out of it, but at least one paper is in the works. If so, I'll be updating information in this post too.

---------- Post added at 09:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by old tanker

The one I have is hot dip galvanized. If there are any markings, they are not apparent through the heavy layer of zinc.

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Interesting, and probably another apprentice build unit? The one I have is made from galvanized sheet. It's rusty now, but I might run it through electrolysis for a surface restoration.

I'll be happy to take a picture for you but email me direct at bdlltd@bellsouth.net to request it.

Brian

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I'll be happy to take a picture for you but email me direct at bdlltd@bellsouth.net to request it.

Brian

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email on the way

The odd thing about these funnels was that we had to make one of the things, but a sort of universal use version on our first class course* I did my 1st class course with the Australians at 1 Base workshop training school along with a few others and another pom. I had the spout part all rolled over a jig and soldered and had to set it square into the upper part. The fit had to be perfect of course so I was pulling the large cup shape up the narrow tapered spout and it went nice and tight on the taper. And I thought how good this was going to be when the top cup part broke free and whacked me in the nose causing a sharp cut that wouldn't stop bleeding! Down to the RAP, got it all fixed and had the next two days off for my trouble. Mind you, I still had to finish the useless funnel. One of the RAEME VM's was a brilliant turner - he'd been a turner before he was called up - and he did the finishing cuts on most of our turning test pieces!

* the first class trade test had to be taken AND PASSED within 2 years of us passing out as apprentices. Generally this important phase was done at the REME training centre at Bordon but as I was abroad I did mine at Bandiana. Where was I now............ Oh yes, funnels!

What story did you tell them at the RAP post Peter be interesting to hear that one eh?
"Attacked by a wayward funnel!"

I have two, no markings on either one.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ay2gseje-1.jpg

Found this in a western Canada surplus store. They had a carton of a dozen. Unissued condition with a bit of surface 'patina'. No markings that I can see.

Thank you for that information, enfield.

Englishman: Thanks for that information, and the picture. One of the interesting things I'm seeing is that, for the commercially made examples like yours - there are variants, not a single style. How long ago did you find that funnel and do you have any recollection if that carton looked like the original box used to ship them in?

The other commercial examples I've seen consist of two modified, truncated cones stacked and soldered together, then having the brass spout installed. Yours is a single truncated cone with a spout. Haven't seen that style before, other than in shop built examples.

Gosh, a long time ago. I remember it was a very old dirty, very heavy cardboard box with a jumble of these, all the same design. I did look at the the outside of the box but did not see any broad arrows, I didnt pay much attention other than the box had no military markings. I was looking for country of origin. The store owner had no idea, they came from a surplus dealer, he could have bought more but went with just the one box.

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Originally Posted by englishman_ca

Gosh, a long time ago. I remember it was a very old dirty, very heavy cardboard box with a jumble of these, all the same design. I did look at the the outside of the box but did not see any broad arrows, I didnt pay much attention other than the box had no military markings. I was looking for country of origin. The store owner had no idea, they came from a surplus dealer, he could have bought more but went with just the one box.

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Ah well, it was worth a try. Thank you very much for the additional information, everything helps!

Hi Guys
I take it now that we don't use corrosive powder these funnels are superfluous.

Regards Chubbs

It was the priming that was the problem. Boiling water is still good to open up the pores of the metal and allow cleaning. There are still people here that use that method...

Just managed to find my two,

Sown Leather funnel, wire bound retained steel spout,

marked:

No16
CM4266
Mk1
1944

Second example

Tin, soldered with indent to rest on receiver bridge,

marked:
Parker Hale
LD
Bisley Works
Birmingham

Pics when I get a chance...

Sorry for the late reply, here are my two funnels guys.

Attachment 86120Attachment 86121Attachment 86122Attachment 86123

Seem to recall reading somewhere that the leather funnels were either Vickers MG or Bren gun kit. Am I misremembering?

Have two out in the Armoury all have Electro-Pencil markings on the rear: Broad Arrow within a C so probably Canadian

Please write your article. The only published article on the funnel that I know of was my article published in the August 1995 issue of the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting titled, "Cleaning Funnels, An Uncommon Lee-Enfield Accessory," by Paul M. R. Breakey. Only two pages long it is not detailed only identifying it and its uses. The article was prompted by the sudden appearance a number of funnels on the surplus market.

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Originally Posted by breakeyp

Please write your article. The only published article on the funnel that I know of was my article published in the August 1995 issue of the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting titled, "Cleaning Funnels, An Uncommon Lee-Enfield Accessory," by Paul M. R. Breakey. Only two pages long it is not detailed only identifying it and its uses. The article was prompted by the sudden appearance a number of funnels on the surplus market.

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Hi Paul, I've actually managed to get a copy of your article, and it's of definite help in this quest. As you mention, there really isn't much information on these, at least that I've been able to find. You seem to have had the same experience.

I've got queries out to museums, arms rooms, and other collectors for any more examples, or information. I'm still in the data gathering stage, but it somewhat surprises me how little information there is, out there. I guess a funnel just isn't sexy enough, lol.

I'll post up links to the paper once it's written, but any and all information is still welcome. Many thanks to all that have, and will, post information and pictures on these accessories. Thanks in particular to those of you that have taken the time to document your collectibles and post the information!

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Simon P

Have two out in the Armoury all have Electro-Pencil markings on the rear: Broad Arrow within a C so probably Canadian

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Now, the electro-pencil is interesting, haven't come across that yet, you're the first. Possibility of any detailed pictures?

I have a funny feeling that there was a line drawing of the leather funnell in the Vickers MMG parts list. I'm sure that it also showed a canvas 'lay flat' water bucket. Oh, no........ please don't tell me that someone in the universe collects lay-flat water buckets.......

Well Peter, I had one.......
:madsmile:

LEC - Album on Imgur

Canvass version, war time manufacture. Universal fit.

Talking of funnels....... is this a Cleaning Funnel or one for filling Oil Bottles? It came from an ex armourer about 20 years ago
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5soi6ffq-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...xzvawwvf-1.jpg

Looks like an oil bottle filler to me Kev with that rim at the base of the neck.

Any markings on it mate?

no markings on it. It might be one of those Armourers projects to make a 'funnel'?

Filling oil bottles.......... Nope........ You need to see how much oil is going in the bottle or it just overflows and goes everywhere. You wouldn't be able to see with this funnel type filler, not even with the large size oil cans in the Bren and MMG kit.

Does anyone have the drawings to make one of these?

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Just managed to find my two,

Sown Leather funnel, wire bound retained steel spout,

marked:

No16
CM4266
Mk1
1944

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I can't speak to other uses for the CM4266 funnel, but I can verify they are on the list for the 25 pounder artillery gun, and most likely other guns. Sorry for reviving an old thread, but this one came up on a google search. I am on the hunt for one or two to go with my 25prs.

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Originally Posted by stencollector

but I can verify they are on the list for the 25 pounder artillery gun, and most likely other guns. Sorry for reviving an old thread, but this one came up on a google search. I am on the hunt for one or two to go with my 25prs.

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I honestly don't remember them as being part of the 25 Pdr CES, what function where they used for?
The only area I can think of a use for them is for refilling the buffer recouperater recoil system.

I'm not sure the exact use is, as I have not read the handbook cover to cover. Here is a scan of the parts manual for the 25 showing the CM4266 funnel. I note that on the Gunner webstore, he says it is for filling the buffers, etc. Funnel Filling - The Gunner

I did four years on 25 pdr's, two of them in boys service and had to do an additional 3 months as I was too young to muster.
The powers that be decided that I should work with the REME gun fitter sergeant which I did for that period servicing the 25 Pdrs that we had. (We had a lot of them!)

I don't recall ever seeing the funnel described, instead we used a can like the one illustrated, albeit without the advertising.
After this period I got posted to the depot regiment at the School of Artillery where I found the battery I was in had six Abbot 105 mm SP guns and wait for it....seven 25 Pdrs!

During that time I don't ever recall seeing that type of funnel.
I wonder if they were withdrawn from service and replaced with an item like the one illustrated?

If we needed something in those days and it wasn't in the system it was usually procured through local purchase. i.e. we sent somebody down to Halfords to buy it!


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Strangely Brown

If we needed something in those days and it wasn't in the system it was usually procured through local purchase

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So did we, thus creating the mystery and arguments of "Well we had one and it was issued"...except it wasn't.

I only have the 1950 parts identification list here, but at work we have a few other versions, including war dated copies. I do know that the majority of the tools for the artillery will have the CM prefix to them. I am not sure if that prefix carries over to the machine guns, but it is certainly common to the artillery pieces.

It's my hope to have the complete EIS for the gun. I did recently get a small disappointment when I bought an example of the 11" adjustable spanner (the gun was supposed to have an 11" and a 15" spanners as part of the tool kit). The spanner showed up with a few other pieces of EIS that I ordered from abroad, and the spanner was a commercial made example in red, and made in Germany to boot. So the search for a broad-arrow marked adjustable spanner will continue. Even better would be a Canadian example, perhaps made by ETF.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I have a funny feeling that there was a line drawing of the leather funnell in the Vickers MMG parts list. I'm sure that it also showed a canvas 'lay flat' water bucket. Oh, no........ please don't tell me that someone in the universe collects lay-flat water buckets.......

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I can't speak to the Vickers use of the collapsible canvas watrer bucket, but again, there is a markV canvas bucket issued as part of the CES of the 25 pdr gun under part number JH1/JA0213. I recently found a box of them at my favorite surplus yard and grabbed several variations of them. I also have a Cdn made example, as well as a US made example of canvas waterbuckets. I don't think that makes me a bucket collector however, more likely just a militaria hoarder.