Lee Enfields: South African Modifications & Manufacture

(1) & (2) The South African “No.1 Converted”. From late 1941 to about May 1943 4,250 of these rifles were produced. They were conversions of expropriated Long Lees with worn barrels. Both Lee Enfields and Lee Metfords appear to have been used. In this “upgrade” British barrels, sights and furniture were used while nose-caps and swivels were manufactured locally. Some of these rifles retained their original dust covers and magazine cut-offs while other did not. Bolts were unchaltered resulting in Lee Metford Mk.II conversions having no safety catch. The lack of charger-bridge combined with the British-manufactured forend resulted in the very distinctive gap by which these rifles may be identified. Archival records indicate that they were used for training and issued to the Defence Rifle Associations. A few may have also ended up with the Parks Board.

(3) Magazine Lee Enfield with upgraded sighting. It is unknown exactly when this modification took place but they were on issue with the police shortly following the First World War and remained in use by the Defence Rifle Associations for many years thereafter.The South African problem with charger-guides appears to have predated the No.1 Converted!

(4) South African Bayonets produced during the Second World War. Top to bottom: Pattern 1888 Mk. III & Pat.1907 manufactured by the South African Railways, Patterns.1907 & 1913 by the Associated Engineers Company.

Terry,

Do you know whether the SA modified long Lees were used by SA forces in German South West Africa [now Namibia] in 1915 and in German East Africa [now Tanzania] in 1916-1918?

I can't find good photographic evidence, but the memorial in Cape Town is very realistic, and represents the South African soldier in Africa with a modified long Lee [sight protector shown] whereas the representation of a South African soldier on the Western front has an SMLE.

Rob

Here are the 2 statues I refer to:
Attachment 85122Attachment 85123

First time I've seen that pattern of 1913 bayonet, I'd like one of those too...

Rob, an examination of photographs in our Military History Museum indicates that the Union Troops used both M.L.E.s and S.M.L.E.s during the German South West African Campaign. Their issue seemed to depend upon regiment. I also came across one of an artillery detachment equipped with what appeared to be Martini Enfield Artillery Carbines! I attach a photo of an S.M.L.E. Mk. I* marked to the Natal Light Horse, a regiment which only existed during the invasion of G.S.W.A. I have not investigated the rifles used in German East Africa.

Jim, I wish you good luck! Although the South African Military Archives indicate that 11,500 Pattern 1913 Bayonets were ordered from A.E.Co. and 1,800 were “finished”, I only know of about eight in collections. Personally, I suspect that their doubtful quality resulted in them being scrapped once wartime pressures had passed.

Terry

Great post, the South African mods and bayonets are something there is very little source material written on.

Do any of the RSA experts know anything about the scrubbed No 4 MK I and No 4 MK II Rhodesian rifles? These rifles were imported by Century into the US about 20 years ago and had the following characteristics:

1) The left had action markings were removed
2) The Butts had been inletted for a unit disc
3) the serial numbers had been removed form the action, bolt forend and, in some cases the magazine body., replaced with a new serial number, hand stamped on the action body (front ring and bolt.
4) Actions on the 2 I got to examine were both Fazakerely, one 1949 dated the other 1948 dated. (barrel F markings , F49,. F48)
5) Hand stamped serial numbers seen in the 900 to 2400 range.

Any knowledge on these rifles would be of interest, nothing in print on them in the US of A

Frederick, I'm afraid that the study of Rhodesian arms is outside my field and era. However, I understand that arms supplied to Rhodesia by South Africa were scrubbed of identifying numbers. I also have some Rhodesian .303 and 7.62 cartridges in my possession. In all respects they appear identical to those of South African manufacture except that the head stamp consists of just the calibre and nothing else.
Terry

Terrylee,

Thought I would ask.

I really enjoyed your post on the No1 converted and would love to see more detailed pictures. I have never seen one up close and had no idea if thy were real or a "imaginary" creation, there being so little written on it, at least here in the US. Indeed this is one of the variations not really discussed by Skennerton, your post is the most information I have ever read about the topic.

Same about the shortened 1914 rifle bayonet, I have seen pictures in the books, but never the production quantity and the fact so few existed. Never seen one in the US of A.

Here in the US there is relatively little written about SA arms, other than the few SA collector articles that have made it over here. Rifles are kind of rare as well, other then SA marked No4 rifles from the 1994 sale.

Love to see more such posts.

The major components of the South African No.1 Converted were either from the original rifle or British imports. The only significant part of South African manufacture was the nose-cap of which I attach the photo of a spare in my possession. These appear to have come in batches from two suppliers. According to the archives, the first of these were castings by the South African Railways then machined by “Steel Engineering” with the second by the “Small Arms Factory”. There is also evidence that a local order was placed for magazines, though I have not identified one as yet.
Terry

Frederick, I have sent you a private message.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frederick303

Great post, the South African mods and bayonets are something there is very little source material written on.

Do any of the RSA experts know anything about the scrubbed No 4 MK I and No 4 MK II Rhodesian rifles? These rifles were imported by Century into the US about 20 years ago and had the following characteristics:

1) The left had action markings were removed
2) The Butts had been inletted for a unit disc
3) the serial numbers had been removed form the action, bolt forend and, in some cases the magazine body., replaced with a new serial number, hand stamped on the action body (front ring and bolt.
4) Actions on the 2 I got to examine were both Fazakerely, one 1949 dated the other 1948 dated. (barrel F markings , F49,. F48)
5) Hand stamped serial numbers seen in the 900 to 2400 range.

Any knowledge on these rifles would be of interest, nothing in print on them in the US of A

---

I may have one of these rifles. It is a No.4 NK2 and apprears to have all of the marking scrubbed off except for a "serial number" 0758 near the ejector screw and the typical No.4 MK2 electro-penciled on the receiver. The rifle was well used and came with Savage No.4 MKI* bolt and a magazine with serial number with the first letter or number outlined out and the remaining numbers are 27756A. The buttstock is marked with a large L/0758. Any thoughts on this one.

--fjruple

Not being an expert on this, but UDI took place long after FN/R1 were the normal issue for police and military. No 4 rifles were never seen in Rhodesia operations even when RSA forces were there clandestinely. Scrubbed No 4 rifles really need to be investigated.

To be really honest, the idea of scrubbing rifle numbers for clandestine use or sale to other nations or whatever is the stuff of comic books. Well, that's what Major gxxxxx Sxxxxx our 'tame' IO told me. The reasons are so bleedin' obvious, it would pain me to even insult anyones intelligence again! There ARE reasons, but clandestine reasons or most other forms of int, ain't one of them!

Some people's comic books, others' facts. Until you hold it in your hands in the store, being issued with it together with other similar stuff.

Interesting thread. Were all Long Lees converted, or did they serve in the Reserves throughout WWII as per this 1940 Pathe clip?

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/s...d/query/rifles

A relatively small proportion of the Long Lees on hand were converted into "No. 1 Converteds" of which 4,250 were produced. This program was also confined to comandeered rifles of which it is recorded that about 40,000 alone were originally available.

Archival records also contain a proposal that the program be extended to government stocks of Long Lees, but a lack of further documentation and an apparent lack of surviving conversions with South African barrels suggests that this never took place.

The records are probably incomplete but it is of interest to note that on the 31st July, 1945 government stocks of Long Lees stood at 28,938. Apparent discrepancies are probably largely accounted for by the contemporary conversions of government-held Long Lees into cadet carbines. Also, why else would new Pattern 1888 bayonets have been manufactured?

Archival information indicates that Long Lees were certainly on issue during the Second World War. Training and the Defence Rifle Associations are mentioned.

Terry
I had this SMLE for 20 years.South African marks on receiver,barrel and target sight.No serial # on MLE bolt.Nose cap is unmarked.No markings on forestock.BSA barrel,like new.Still has MLE butt stock.Marked 1910 enfield MK II on right and 1910 CLLE on left behind target sight.
Is this one of the rifles converted by South Africa?
Attachment 89467Attachment 89468Attachment 89469Attachment 89470

Superbee, The fact that your rifle has a charger-bridge shows that it is not a ""No.1Converted". The somewhat indistinct markings on the knoxform appear to indicate a B.S.A. commercial barrel which is typical of an earlier Union Defence Force replacement. I expect that the M.L.E. bolt was fitted following the rifle's sale as military surplus. The U.D.F. markings on the target sight suggest that it and the reconditioned rifle were purchased by a member of one of the Defence Rifle Associations or later "Skiet Kommandos". These were in effect glorified target shooting clubs where membership entitled the holders to buy rifles and accessories from the government at favourable rates. I know! I still have the rebarrelled SMLE with identical sight that I purchased in the 1960s !

Thanks for the info!It is one of the more interesting target rifles in my collection.

Fitted with a good reliable MK7 Parker Hale 5A sight too!

Superbee, out of interest, is the BSA barrel a cut-down Long Lee barrel, or is it an SMLE barrel? If cut down, it will have a heavier profile at the crown.
Rob

Rob, for those familiar with the rebarrelled South African Magazine Lee Enfields (Long Lees), you ask a very relevant question!

Some time back the completely flat uncrowned muzzles on my SMLE B.S.A. replacement barrels also aroused my curiosity. I have three such rifles and these muzzles suggested to me that their barrels may have been shortened.

I consequently stripped down two of them to investigate. There is now no doubt in my mind that their B.S.A. commercial barrels were of original S.M.L.E. configuration and have never been shortened or altered in any way.

I also note that the replacement B.S.A. commercial barrels on my South African military MLEs have flat uncrowned muzzles. Was this a characteristic of B.S.A. commercials??

Just got what I think to be a SA rifle for virtually nothing.

Commercial BSA carbine action with a CLLE BSA long barrel mounted, special nickel steel marked.

of course the forend was shortened.

Buttstock converted to use SMLE buttplate, not SMLE as it has no safety cutout.

Have the SA 1937 inventory marks and the rear swivel is DOW marked.

Shame the bore is rough.

I have seen commercial 'BALL BURNISHED' barrels that appear to have a perfectly flat muzzle with no crown. However, if the very edge of the bore is examined it will be seen to have a tiny chamfer which gives it a fine perfectly round circle of a crown, as opposed to a five sided polygon shape.

If a barrel has been cut and is left unfinished, the shape of the rifled bore at the muzzle is quite apparent.