N0.7 Mk.1/L Bayonet

Well, here's a "head-scratcher"! I recently acquired the above mentioned bayonet in pretty good shape. Though not exactly rare, they aren't that thick on the ground either (at least not hereabouts). What makes this one noteworthy is the scabbard. It's a cut-down '07 pattern scabbard! It's been the source of some speculation on another forum. One guy thought it was a home-made job (not so, since I've seen several of them) and one other gentleman thought the scabbard was from an India pattern bayonet (not so, blade would have been too long to fit). I haven't been able to find any information thus far regarding these particular scabbards. If anyone knows definitively about the origins, please pass on the info or direct me to a source. The scabbard had "OA" stamped on it and I was told that was Australian.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...onet_006-1.jpg

I've heard it suggested that the Indians sometimes used shortened 1907 scabbards with their L1A1 bayonets but have not actually seen any evidence of them having done so. "OA" stands for Orange armoury, I believe, an Australian company. I have purchased, in the past, a couple of short Indian smle un-fullered bayonets that came with full length Australian "OA" 1907 scabbards.

I believe they were made for shortened bayonets for the Owen sub machine gun.

Yes, I've seen pictures of Owen bayos with short 1907 scabbards, if memory serves me correctly.

Regardless of all the why's and wherefores this combination is clearly incorrect as the No7 was issued with a No5 scabbard. The only exception to this general rule, as I understand it, was that when the L1A1 bayonet was issued with the new-issue L1A1 rifles, units were issued with the bayonets only and the No9's (and the Energa launchers incidentally.....) were returned to Ordnance scabbard-less for disposal. Scabbards being taken on for use with the L1A1 bayonets. The same happened on a smaller scale with Stens and the No7's when the L2 came on stream with the No5 bayonet.

Thinking out aloud, I think someones taken the No5 scabbard off this bayonet (thread 1) and sold it on with a cut down old No1 bayonet scabbard. I mean, how difficult is it to cut a No1 scabbard down to length?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

how difficult is it to cut a No1 scabbard down to length

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Not so bad if you have the mandrel for the staples, or whatever the wire binders are called. These scabbards were made as short and also shortened because there were scads. The steel scabbards were continued in service as Peter says. The US did this too, that's evident with many of the scabbards through their issue of bayonets.

I have shortened several 1907 scabbards to fit scabbard-less short Indian smle bayonets and I have found that flat bladed screw drivers will turn over the staples quite well. I mark the shank of the screw driver with a black marker pen with the widest part of the blade lined up with the staples on the outside of the scabbard. I then insert the screwdriver into the scabbard throat up to the mark on the shank and twist the screw driver 90 degrees. You need to pick a screw driver that has a shank that will fit through the throat and a screwdriver blade wide enough to turn the staples over and you also need a bit of judgement on how to line it up but it seems to work quite well.

If you wish to make a mandrel to fit down the full length of the 1907 scabbard, this is a fairly simple task because the metal required is a standard stock size. I made one from 6mm x 25mm black mild steel which has rounded edges and all that is required is to shape the end a little and round it off. This will do the staples on the chape, if required.

I've got one exactly like it and always wondered how the combination wound up together. 10 years ago you could buy the metal scabbards for $10-15 bucks and the long leather scabbards were twice that so cutting one down for this purpose didn't really make sense.

Thank you all for your input. Based on your input, I did a Google search for "Owen submachinegun bayonet" and saw lots of my scabbards in the pics. As Mr. Laidler pointed out, the combination is not "as issued" correct, so someone mated the two at some point in the past. I know of 4 other scabbards like mine and I'm going to contact the owners to see if they are all marked OA. If so, this could support the speculation that these scabbards were an Austalian initiative. It would be nice if a knowledgeable Aussie chimed in with a confirmation. On another note, my bayonet is marked "M47A" on the pommel with the "crows foot" WD arrow. Does this denote the manufacturer and the year?

We had one of those lacing tools when our big parent workshop closed down and the calibrated 'bend box' for the bayonets. The staple legs were actually bent over the slots in the lacing tool as the staple was hammered in over the tool. Soft steel, two hits and it was there!

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

...On another note, my bayonet is marked "M47A" on the pommel with the "crows foot" WD arrow. Does this denote the manufacturer and the year?

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M47A was the 'secret' wartime code for BSA (think it could of been the Small Heath site? There were also M47B and M47C for the different BSA locations).

On the subject of No7 bayonets, someone ought to write up the full story about them and how utterly useless they were, the attrition rate, scrappage rate, internal problems and weaknesses. The only thing I can think about that gave them any sort of kudos was that for years and years afterwards they were used on the belts of bandsmen where the brown grips, screw heads, brass mouthpieces and scabbards could all be polished. But, alas, the rotating pommel parts of the bayonets themselves were epoxied solid!

At one point a couple of decades back a gun store here in the city had a shipment of bayonets of all descriptions come in by the case lot. There were the short 1907s, the first we'd seen and #7s with black or brown paxolin handles...1903 bayonets...all without scabbards. Then he had a case or two of just scabbards come in to mate them up. There were steel with brass mouth, and about three length of 1907 scabbards. That's along with the other types of scabbards all mixed up. The dealers will separate them and make you buy them to make more. That's how this sort of thing happens. It's like a Krag bayonet with a picket pin case, they were done by the surplus dealers because they couldn't sell them otherwise. The story they create eventually sticks like sh*t to a blanket... The short scabbards aren't an Aussie invention, they were done by all that used them...

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

We had one of those lacing tools when our big parent workshop closed down

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The staple legs were actually bent over the slots in the lacing tool as the staple was hammered in over the tool. Soft steel, two hits and it was there!

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Does anyone actually have one of these "official staple/lacing tools" that they are able to post some pictures of please? I would be interested to see what the proper recommended tool looks like.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

"official staple/lacing tools"

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We had one here for a look a few years ago...do any of you remember? Here's the same discussion almost... There was some conjecture that Brian Dick had one of the correct tools for staples. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=41344&

Thanks for finding that, Jim. I'll try putting a shallow indent/slot each side of the mandrel that I have made already and see if it works.

A while ago I needed to push out some dents on a really bashed up K98 scabbard and for that I made myself a hardwood mandrel, intended for a single use only and it did the job fine. Some time later I needed to remove some dents on a No5 scabbard and I still had the K98 wooden mandrel to hand and so I thought that I'd just try it for size and I may be able to modify it to suit. I was surprised to find that my K98 mandrel, that I had made, fitted inside the No5 scabbard perfectly. Obviously the No5 scabbard is not as tall as the K98 scabbard but is it just pure coincidence that the internal sizes/profile appear to be the same between the 2 scabbards or was the No5 scabbard copied largely from the K98 scabbard and just shortened with a different frog mount?

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

"OA" stands for Orange armoury, I believe, an Australian company.

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Just to help out people's historical understanding, OA was Orange Annexe.

Small Arms Factory, Lithgow built the Orange Annexe in 1941 to cope with the high volume of No 1 Mk III* production required when Japan became Australia's prime threat and focus. Lithgow concentrated on Vickers and Bren production, while Orange manufactured rifles assembled mainly from parts made at Orange, Bathurst, Forbes and Wellington Annexes.

The (Lithgow and Annexes) Small Arms Factory was a Government facility, not a company.

Please don't take this as a pedantic rant, just helping share the history of Australian manufactured Lee Enfield components.

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Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE

Please don't take this as a pedantic rant

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No, correct is correct. Here(in my city) we had an "Expert" telling all that would listen it was Orange Arsenal. You see? Now that one's put to bed.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

A while ago I needed to push out some dents on a really bashed up K98 scabbard and for that I made myself a hardwood mandrel, intended for a single use only and it did the job fine. Some time later I needed to remove some dents on a No5 scabbard and I still had the K98 wooden mandrel to hand and so I thought that I'd just try it for size and I may be able to modify it to suit. I was surprised to find that my K98 mandrel, that I had made, fitted inside the No5 scabbard perfectly. Obviously the No5 scabbard is not as tall as the K98 scabbard but is it just pure coincidence that the internal sizes/profile appear to be the same between the 2 scabbards or was the No5 scabbard copied largely from the K98 scabbard and just shortened with a different frog mount?

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I have a couple of ground dug WWII S.84/98III (K98) bayonet scabbard mandrels. A dealer had a box of them at the War & Peace show 10-15 years ago and I bought a couple to clean up. It never occurred to me that they might work with a No.5 scabbard. That might come in handy in the future.

Attachment 85236Attachment 85237

surely a No5 scabbard is cheaper than the full length 07 scabbard?? I wouldn't cut down the leather scabbard unless the removed part was beyond help. shortening the scabbard makes you a Bubba and this question will then come up more often. Short 07 scabbards turn up often enough as it is. I have an Indian SLR long bayonet and it came in a shortened 07 scabbard, if you do it it makes finding the truth more difficult unless you mark the scabbard to show its not original.

1907 scabbards were fairly plentiful here in the U.K. but it's starting to look as if they are getting harder to get hold off which is not surprising as there is only a finite supply of originals in existence. The ones that I have shortened have been for Indian short smle bayonets and I have copied the length from an existing short '07 scabbard. My justification for doing it is to provide a scabbard to a scabbard-less bayonet that matches what it would have been issued with while in service. My motivation was to create a "complete unit" for my collection and not for financial gain in any way.

I did wonder if the British ever produced, in the latter part of WW2, any No5 scabbard bodies from captured K98 scabbard bodies by reducing the length and attaching a new fog button etc, etc. The U.K. must have come into the possession of significant quantities of captured K98 bayonets scabbards and comparing the 2 scabbards this does appear entirely feasible. While this is entirely speculation based on my own observations of the 2 scabbards it does offer a possible explanation as to why the internal size and profile of the 2 scabbards appear to be exactly the same.

Thanks for the information about the Orange Annexe. We don't seem to get to hear much information about Australian Arms manufacture.