once a machine gun always a machine gun

pretty sure that'swhat the ATF says.
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from one of the auction sites for a bm 59,

"Up for auction is a Beretta BM59 Type E Semi-Auto (select fire components have been removed); This is the Beretta version of the M1 Garand. Newly professionally re-built and blued. Rifle has only been test-fired since build, runs great. Bore is good, but slight pitting in chamber area - fine if 150/ or lower gr. brass ammo is used. Original military stock is rough, but no cracks. Sold as-is. See pics (BM59 is top rifle in pics - bottom gun is a BM62, nfs). Comes with 1 - 20 round mag. Lots more pics available upon request. Payment with USPS money order only. $50 s & h + ins. to continental US only. Do not bid if it's not legal to own in your state - it's up to you to know. Must ship to your FFL. Please email with any questions prior to bidding, no refunds or returns. Thanks for looking.
[Information added 02/23/2009 5:36:55 PM]
Reserve price is $999.00, which will include shipping "
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seems to me

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/123345000/123345900/pix173214250.jpg[/IMG]

if it was once a machine gun the thing is still unlegal

I think you are correct. My department received some M14s form the Federal Government a few years ago. They are semi-automatic, but must be registered as machine guns. I'm not too familar with the BM59 but I think it would be the same situation.

link,
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=123345900

Not exactly. The words "Once a machine gun, always a machine gun" won't be found in either the CFR or ATF regs & rulings. But, that's generally the way that they have ruled in the past, especially in regard to M-14 type rifles.

I would not possess the rifle in question without a written ruling from ATF, listing the rifle by serial number, stating that it is legal to possess.

But, for those who believe otherwise, I have a travel tip: If you end up in the stockade at Eglin AFB, stuff your towel under your cell door at night, or else you will wake up with snakes in your bed.

BM-59's made as semi-auto were legally imported several years ago and do not come under the NFA. I suspect this is one of those, but I would certainly make sure before bidding.

The OAMNAAMG phrase is a kind of shorthand, but that is what the law says. Prior to 1968, the NFA defined a machinegun as a gun that fired more than once for each pull of the trigger. But the then-ATTD, alarmed by the number of unregistered machineguns brought back by WWII GI's, established what they called the DEWAT (DEactivated WAr Trophy) program. Anyone with an unregistered machinegun could weld it up and it would not only be no longer a machinegun, it would not be a gun at all.

Immediately, gun importers like Sam Cummings, with access to thousands of machineguns, imported them, welded them in bond and sold them as "Dewats".
Naturally, some were opened up ("rewatted") and used in crime. In addition, the press blew the thing out of all proportion, so that Congress, in the 1968 law, in addition to banning mail order gun sales and imposing other restrictions, changed the machinegun definition so that any weapon designed or originally made as a machinegun could never become a non-machinegun or a non-gun. The change was a rebuke to the Treasury Department's DEWAT program, whose legality had always been questionable.

Jim

The receiver is the only "real" thing thats the machine gun. The BM 59's were built on semi auto receivers, so therefore they are not considered a machine gun. I own a Bren. The kit was from a real full auto machine gun. The receiver was torch cut into three pieces. I sent the kit to Texas Wholesale and they put the receiver into a jig, configured it into a semi auto, and now I have a semi auto Bren. There is no way that it can be fired into a full auto mode.

ltcboy ,not all BM59's were semi auto . There are quite a few that are select fire .
I cannot get a close up of the left front of the receiver to tell for sure, but I believe, that the rifle in question is most likely a semi auto only rifle, the rifle would need the round cut in this area for the selector mechanism as well as a few other features. These are often made from welded or unwelded M1 garand receivers.
You can have a M1 receiver converted to a semi BM59 by CMP armory for $450. Golden State and National Ordnance made some of the from welded M1demills back in the 60's and 70's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ltcboy

I own a Bren. The receiver was torch cut into three pieces...they put the receiver into a jig, configured it into a semi auto, and now I have a semi auto Bren. There is no way that it can be fired into a full auto mode.

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Well, ltcboy, that is just what MKS did with those M14s and they went to jail. If the receiver retains the original serial number or any identification as a BREN gun, I think you and the welder could be in trouble. It is not a machinegun because of how it can fire but because the receiver was originally a machinegun. That is the whole point of OAMGAAMG. The fact that the gun can't fire full auto is irrelevant, because that is no longer the definition in the law.

Jim

The Bm-59 was/is a select fire weapon. Beretta made a semi auto only version deginated as the BM-61 (IIRC)

Gun sold. This looks like trouble, even if only semi-automatic. One to be happy to have missed.

Actually Jim, the jigs and conversion parts for the Bren's and several other demilled machine guns have already been through approval from the ATF and are now in common commercial use.

There are lots of Brens out there but you will also find MG-34's, MG-42/53's, Stens, Sterlings, Thompsons and all kinds of commie stuff that has been through the wringer with the ATF. Most of them come with the approval letter from the ATF that approved the design.

Its rather a PITA to get through the process as they wont tell you crap usually if they dont consider it a gun but if you are close enough to a workable design they will give you what you need to finish for approval.

Normally you will find the original designer with be a 07/SOT, and from there it will flow out to the small potatoes guys like us.


Dan

No problem, then, I assume, but all the MG type semi guns I have seen advertised new receivers, which I took to mean newly made in reality, not just legally. At one time, ATTD took the position that if a receiver was cut, it was scrap, and anyone could salvage the pieces and make a working semi-auto in the same way they could make it out of a piece of scrap railroad rail.

Then came 1968 and they said that under the new law, an MG receiver did not become scrap as long as its "identity" as a machinegun remained. If it was a "weapon", meaning that it would fire at all, it was still a machinegun. Some folks got by with grinding off the markings (the identity) and re-marking the semi-auto receiver as a new model.

As you say, they never want to make things easy, always fearful that someone will take a "scrapped" MG, make it work, then use it a mass crime or show it firing full auto hour after hour on MSNBC. They are like any other group of bureaucrats; their purpose is not really to enforce the law, it is to cover their fannies.

Jim

I had one of those rifles, M1 Type 7, they called it. It was built on a US M1 rifle receiver, a welded one, that had been opened up for a magazine. I also have the modified M1 bayonet, large muzzle ring and serial number added (matching scabbard). You note there were no pictures of the receiver markings. Old Sacramento Armoury sold them years ago.

I might know an 81 year old gunsmith, who bought a well known M14 action that was and is semi-automatic only. He built an M14 with all military parts and a USGI stock. He might have said, "I can maki it full auto if I want to" Then he might have proceeded to do so with no metal alteration to the receiver, any metal on the rifle, and no alteration to the trigger group.

If a person were to own such an item, What could it become? Could you apply for a Cl. 3 permit and possess it?

Could you sell the secret mfg. process?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Larry McLarty

If a person were to own such an item, What could it become?

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Ten years in Leavenworth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramboueille

Ten years in Leavenworth.

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WHY?

There has been no metal alteration. The item never was a MG.

Yeah CYA is a bureaucratic disease for sure.

All the Brens that have been retailed have been built on restructured original receivers, some other guns are about 50/50 new/old, and as to what they call a machine gun I guess it depends on who you talk to and if he has managed to take a dump lately (anal a**'s).
Now I dont know if they were scubbing all the data, serial number and other markings off the receivers or not, I havent managed to pick up a Bren Kit yet (sooner or later hopefully).

Dan

"Once a machine gun, always a machine gun" is an ATF regulation they've made into a law. Call your elected representative and ask why a government agency is allowed to make laws.

A government agency didn't make that law. The 73rd Congress did in 1934 when they wrote "The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon..." in the definition of a machinegun.