how would the m1 carbine compare to an AR for home defense or possible katrina or LA riots type of emergencies
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how would the m1 carbine compare to an AR for home defense or possible katrina or LA riots type of emergencies
It would do great, but I wouldn't use a G.I. carbine and the replicas are not that dependable. Actually, an AR in .30 Carbine would be ideal. Olympic used to make one but dropped it when it didn't sell. That was back when G.I. carbines were $200. They were 20 years too early. The round itself is perfect for those uses and a hollow point or soft point might be even better. I had a case of HPs made years ago now I have no use for them as the M1 carbine has no place in my tactical plans. This discussion always ends with the AK; ammo is affordable, it has more power than the carbine, big magazines are cheap and the guns are available although kind of expensive at this time mainly due to trade restrictions with Russia and of course China as well as many kinds of import restrictions.
I wouldn't use either for home defense as they will way over penetrate. AK too... Neither would I use a 70 year old carbine to stake my life on when I could get a new AR.
Still, a shotgun with buckshot would be invaluable. Body armor you say? Buckshot touches many areas at once. Easier to hit with in low light when you're scared too...
Try to keep the comparison with in the OP's parameters.Quote:
Originally Posted by rice 123
M1 Carb vs AR (can we assume 5.56?)
Over all you would be better off with a carbine or an AR then a shotgun. It's one thing in a home for a shotgun to be of good value but once your past the 25 yard mark the shotguns value starts to drop off. The further away you are the more it drops real quick. Now an AR with FMJ rounds will penetrate the walls of a home from end to end. A carbine with FMJ rounds will penetrate from the outside of the house and out the other end and keep on going. Yes it will out penetrate the AR round out to at least 100 yards. Myself and 39 other range officers along with the FBI range officers officers tried many different firearms and rounds to find out what worked and what didn't. On glass the 30 carbine deflected less then a 30-06 or a .223. When it came time to put some old cars out of their misery, the .30 carbine would go into the trunk and came out the grill if it didn't hit the engine block. Engine kept running. The .223 didn't quite make it past the rear seat in the cars. But the engine kept running. So one of the instructors said he had the answer. Loaded his M1 Garand with 8 rounds of USGI AP. Started at 25 years and fired into the engine block. But the engine kept running in that old Ford Falcon straight six. His last shot was at point blank range but it did nothing to the engine. One of the instructors had a .458 Winchester and so he tried it out. That old Falcon finally met it's match and the block cracked with the first shot from five yards away. But the point is the out to 25 yards the shotgun is viable with double O buck. Past that and a 12 gauge slug is viable to 50 yards. Out to 100+ the carbine is viable and past that the AR 15 is viable. So it all depends on what your going to use your firearms for. But remember that the carbine will penetrate more out to a farther distance then most people realize. Could be good and could be bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rice 123
That was exactly what he asked. In the field I'd use an AR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
the reason I asked is I am slowly getting rid of my collection I have a CMP rock ola mixmaster and a colt SP1 from the early 70s . My grandson is turning 21 I was going to give him the carbine and keep the AR for home defense / emergencies. But when I had him over on the 4th I showed him both guns and he wanted the Colt SP1. So I was wondering if I should pic up another AR or just relay on the m1 carbine
Everyone has a different philosophy as to what is or would be "the best". Is there a right or wrong answer? To me the only wrong would be to not have anything for home protection. Folks have different comfort levels with different weapons. Practice and become accomplished with whatever choice you make.
Personally I think a carbine or AR is too much for home protection. Only for the reason of distance. The longest shot inside my home would be 65 feet from the front door to the patio door. For that reason I choose a 45 acp handgun, and a shotgun. My wife not liking a 45acp chooses a 9mm or 38 special. Once they are out of the house the threat has gone away. I'm surely not going to shoot them in the back as they high tail their butts off my property.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zps1a61-1.jpg
Zactly...Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF4M1s
I will tell you that a carbine with soft point ammo is very bad Ju Ju for varmints with two or four legs. It will put some large holes in their poor bodies. But again it is a penetrator. I have seen carbine soft point rounds go into the armor plate from a Battleship and penetrate a good inch and a half into it. FMJ and 30-06 AP just bounced off the backstop. So if your closest neighbor is a good mile away or so then use the carbine or the AR. But if your next door is only 75 feet away then think twice about it for sure as even a good handgun round with go through walls with ease. There really is no perfect answer.
Carbines are wonderful pieces of history. I have several and have shot and enjoyed them for many years. Young men also need to learn some of their history. For possible serious issues keep the Ar15 for yourself. No question.
Wouldn't consider either to be best for home protection unless your closest neighbor is a long way away.
First line of defense are my 9mm pistols that stay loaded with 147g HST defense ammo. If things escalate, my Advisor Carbine with laser is ready, also loaded with defense ammo.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...07/ready-1.jpg
Before even getting to cartridge and ammo selection discussion I am going to take the AR15.
You can do almost everything from 10 to 300 meters (maybe a bit further) with a single properly equipped AR15 and a couple different mags of ammo. Carbine just doesn't offer that flexibility which is why I would go AR. You don't need to have the rifle filled with tacti-crap, just a flash light and optic of choice will get you through a lot.
The M1 Carbine is more analogue to modern PDWs, the FN PS90 comes to mind. A compact easy handling gun to replace a pistol that will get the people with it (truck driver is always the stereotype example) out of trouble. 5.7 offers the flexibility of AP options too but the ammo is very hard to get in the US and performance in the full length barrels is so so, plus the terminal ballistics of normal ball aren't impressive to me. However, the AR15, especially with optics, will out range both. Since this scenario said home defense AND SHTF scenarios that is why I say AR15
There is a lot that can be written about bullets, penetration, cartridge, etc. I will say that in the event of a miss, it doesn't matter really what you miss with - .223, .30 carbine, 9mm, 00, it has the potential to go through a lot of drywall until it hits something and numerous tests have shown this. But the rifle itself just doesn't stack up for me. And I love the Carbine, I just think it's time has moved on and it is now firmly a fascinating collectible versus a duty gun.
Self defense is going to be a little hard to justify at ranges beyond a few yards, unless the BG is shooting at you first. There may be no need to be considering a SD round for anything past 100-yards. Shotguns and pistol-caliber weapons seem very appropriate for that and I won't fear shooting my neighbors up in the process. I think the M1 carbine is a good choice. I have a 9MM AR and a 9MM M1 as well and they seem "more perfect" for the role to me and are very economical to shoot in practice as well. If I want to reach out and touch something, I have a 5.56 for that purpose.
If you really value your life get both it will make you happy!
I wanted one of these because this is how I envision my sons and I dealing with a nocturnal threat, but the guy at the guy shop just stared at me. Apparently he hadn't a clue where to order the backpack part of the rig from. :dunno:
Predator - Shooting Jungle [HD] - YouTube
You must be feeling better ?
Hope So....
Cheers
Charlie
I'll blame the meds....:madsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
If you ever shoot a centerfire rifle, carbine or shotgun inside a house, without ear protection, you'll never forget it. I'm with Jim on the penetration issue too. This is why I actually sold my shotgun and replaced it with a .40 cal pistol-caliber-carbine (PCC). Along with handguns, this forms the basis of my HD array. I live in a typical subdivision with homes on all sides. I still have ARs and an AK but they are more for area defense should that ever be needed. This scenario is actually getting more possible if the 'protests' and groups like 'antifa' take it up just one more notch, to come into residential areas to 'punish' the 'pigs' who 'unfairly' enjoy a half-decent lifestyle after decades of hard work instead of 'sharing' it with socialists.
"...Body armor you say?..." Any armour suitable to stop either cartridge weighs over 20 pounds.
"...Katrina or LA riots type of emergencies..." Are extremely rare and are dealt with differently than a horde of criminals entering your house or a bump in the night. The over penetration issue is something you need to consider too. You are responsible for where any shot you fire ends up. So the type of bullet, construction of your house and where you are matters. A varmint bullet will likely disintegrate out of a .223 if it hits dry wall. An FMJ will just keep going. 4 or 5 sheets according to the guys at Truth About Guns, as I recall. Glass won't stop a .22 lr. Shotgun with #2's or BB's is best.
"...carbine with soft point ammo is very bad Ju Ju..." Yep. Grapefruit size holes in ground hogs.
"...65 feet from the front door to the patio door..." Mansion. snicker. Lotta glass too?
Um...no, that was referring to buckshot. Body armor will stop buckshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunray
Personally I'd have no problem with relying on a M1 carbine for home defence, not all houses are made out of timber and drywall, myself living in an area where most home construction is double brick I don't feel over penetration would be an issue. Unfortunately it's a moot point for me because here in Australia it is actually illegal to own a firearm for 'self defence'. As a licensed dealer however I have much experience with the little carbine which was very popular in OZ pre buy back days, still have a few on the books. Back in the day when legal on a private licence I shot many large pigs with one and most dropped stone dead on the spot. I still know of a few in use in the Northern territory for the same purpose on licence. I've always call BS on the old myth about them being under powered etc, sure they are no 30/06 but are deadly under 100 metres let alone hallway distance. Likewise I've found reliability excellent provided the mags are good, always had better success with 15 rounders as we had a lot of WW11 spec guns out here with the old mag catch that didn't support the 30's as well. No doubt an AR is a better thing but I wouldn't lack any confidence in your situation if I was left with the M1 Carbine. In fact one very small advantage against the SP1 (with carry handle upper) at very close range you wouldn't have to consider 'sight over bore' with the M1 carbine.
I know a cop who recommends the 55gr AR as an ideal home defense weapon. I would not agree since if it was accidentally loaded with 62s it would go through two houses.
All of this stuff is conjecture since most of us have never dealt with a home invasion. I would say that a Ruger 10/22 in the right hands would stop any threat if used aggressively. I can't imagine what it would be like to get shot with a load of #8 birdshot from 20 feet away, It would be awful I know that. It would take a lot of sand out of any intruder. If you wanted to make sure, the guy isn't going to be doing much after that, so shot#2 would do the trick. I have been using a Model 39 as a home gun, it is accurate and works. I would use a 1911 except that I don't want to risk losing one to some homeless tweeker who stops by when I'm gone. With a 45 I WILL kill you everytime, hit you and kill you. Around here, the marijuana growers and the trash that follows them has made a once safe place into a risky place. I would be more concerned that a home invasion would involve several people. Having another weapon or magazines handy would be the most important thing. People who have been shot hard, in the torso are in deep trouble within seconds regardless of the gun used. In the war people who were shot but not fatally, would go into shock and die anyway. So I'd say, have a weapon that you can use instinctively and effectively and pay attention to what's behind your puke. Ever round has your name on it. If your rounds didn't have the desire effect, shoot the guy again. Most asshats that break into houses are gun stupid.
Well stated Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
My fear would be getting caught off guard. More than 1 intruder multiplies that fear.
Best said... A defensive weapon, You can use instinctively, effectively and safely.
CH-P777
More I think about this.... When intruded upon, that defensive weapon will be on the Offensive.
Here is an episode that I didn't fully think through at the time. When I lived in California I was burglarized during the day in 2007 when at work. The police said they couldn't get into your safe and most likely would be back. They were correct, eight days later, again at work I was burglarized. The policeman who came was the same guy as the first time and told me to carry a weapon when home, but make sure I didn't take it off my property. I didn't tell him I already did. I asked the wife to go see her cousin for a week. I keep only one light on and no TV or noise. On the third night I heard someone trying the front door knob. I quickly opened the door to the face of a young 16/17 year old black kid. If he had advanced on me through the door way, I would have fired. He saw my 45 acp and his eyes widened, turned yelled to his friends who were going around the side, and they took off. I didn't fire, I didn't chase them, there was no need. Called the policeman who had come before and they were caught a few blocks away. He heard them talking about a crazy guy with a gun.
Hindsight, that was stupid of me. If it were an adult breakin with multiple intruders I might not have been able to take them all on. I should have been the fifteen feet back at the stairway with my shotgun and pistol at my side. But for our last seven years there, we had no more issues.
Just read a story of a lady in Chicago that had a knock on the door, mid afternoon. Looked out at a 'young smiling face', opened the door and received a shot of pepper spray in the face. A number of them ran in and robbed her of her valuables. She was kept facing the floor with a throw blanket thrown over her. She couldn't ID anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF4M1s
We live in a small town, seldom seeing someone of color. But crime is everywhere and skin color doesn't matter. I've told my wife to never unlock the storm door, unless she knows who it is. And to beware no matter the age. I'm just not the trusting type.
Any major highway per the Feds is now a Drug alley. I often see State troopers with cars pulled over on the Detroit to Lansing to Flint to Saginaw to Grand Rapids to Chicago highways with K9 searches.
These often young gang members don't fear jail. If caught they aren't worried about 5-7 years in jail, if using a gun while committing. These are the Valuable street level earners. The very first to make bail, and back on the street earning. While a petty theft guy can't make bail.
Excerpts from Chicago Tribune:
Bond amounts for felony gun crimes doubled
In 2012 the median bond amount for felony gun charges was $25,000. In 2016 it rose by $25,000 to $50,000 while bonds for other felonies stayed even or fell.
But over the same time period, the average number of days a defendant spends in jail before posting bond for a gun charge has fallen by more than half, from 42 to 18 days.
Nonviolent, poor inmates languish in jail while those accused of violent crimes with access to money — like gang members — are released onto the streets to commit new crimes.
A lot of the shootings occur by repeat gun offenders, which are with the gangs. So when those guys get picked up, for whatever reason, who do you think the gangs are going to bail out first? They bail out the shooters because they are the most valuable pieces to that gang organization. Because they aren't afraid to use violence to get their message across. So what we see is just an unbelievable cycle of arresting these guys, and then for whatever reason, the judicial system spits them right back out, only to be dealt with … again and again.
Shootings are up but arrests are down
Shooting incidents in 2016 jumped more than 42 percent compared to 2012. Arrests for gun charges, meanwhile, dropped 9 percent since then. In the same time period the number of firearm recoveries, as well as firearm-recovery arrests, have plunged. Firearm recovery arrests dropped by 9 percent, and gun recoveries fell by about 33 percent, from 12,650 in 2012 to 8,416 last year, according to police data.
If Police are involved in a shooting, beside their own safety, they've put their careers in limbo and possible legal charges. All to see repeat shooters back on the streets in as little as 48hrs or less.
And they wonder why the police are stepping back?
I don't believe there will be any improvement until using a gun sentences become much stricter........ and no bond.
In Detroit some say a High Priority 911 call may be a 58-minute average response time.
Bottom Line: Be prepared to protect your family and property.
FWIW
CH-P777
In my humble opinion a pair of properly trained pit bulldogs would be the best home defense one could have. However, they do require much more maintenance and upkeep than the above mentioned options.
I use a number of guns for Home Defense, but I live on acreage in the Sierra. A Glock 21 .45 ACP loaded with 14 of the lovely "T series" 230 grain Ranger +P rounds is in my night stand. An Inland M1 Carbine with 110 Hornady Critical Defense is also handy for close in, as in my Sp1 AR15 Carbine clone (all Colt except stripped lower) loaded with 77 grain OTM MK262 MOD1 with a 4X scope for range.
My daily carry is a S&W Shield 9mm for around town to the store, and a Glock 19 9mm (I have had since it was my duty weapon around 1994) that I wear when I drop down out of the foothills to Auburn, Sacramento, and beyond. Up hiking in the mountains it is my Glock 21 .45 ACP.
In the last five years our lovely county/community has flooded with dope growers, trimigrants (those who trim for cash and suck up the local food banks and social services), meth cookers, and the flood of trash that surround that crowd. Homicides, robberies, and violent assaults are through the roof (though largely kept within the drug community).
I first moved here in 1977 when I got out of the Army, and was hired on as a deputy. After a couple years, I followed my career, elsewhere, but always managed to return (1988 to 1992, 2000 to 2007, then the last time in 2011). I could cry when I see what has happened here.
A number of years ago, I used my M1 carbine with a 30 rounder to run off a car load of hairy scary scum pulling into my property to burglarize it in the middle of the night. The rest of the family was gone, but I was home and surprised them.
Sorry Hooks I can introduce you to several Pitts that might lick you to death or hurt you with their wagging tails. If a Pitt is that dangerous it wasn't raised properly. Oh and if ours hears a shot they are trying to crawl under the bed which is on the floor. But they are loveable. Better off with a Shepard or a Dobie.
Update: I am glad I have my AR15 SP1 carbine clone (1/7 twist 6420 barrel) with the 4X handy. Yesterday the next door neighbor saw a mountain lion in my creek bottom. We have horses, dogs, and small grandkids here, so if he comes any closer, he'll being eating a MK262 MOd1 77 grain SMK OTM up his @ss. With 150 yards max, I think it is a tad far for an iron sighted M1 Carbine.
Lots of livestock attacks in our county (we live in the Sierra Nevada Foothills) and some recent very close calls with humans. I'm on Search and Rescue, and its possible one or two of our missing hikers fell prey to the swarm of big cats we have here lately. This month a neighbors dog was just eaten by a lion, and a friend had a lion kill a deer 50 feet from her back door just last week.
Those cats have spread across Calif. We used to have one sneak through on the way out to the coast, but now they reside right here in Annadel park in Santa Rosa. There are dead carcasses on my local golf course. These are not benign fun little cats, when the deer are gone they will kill and eat people. Last time I was up in Modoc, you couldn't find a deer with a Geiger counter, even the squeakers were gone. These cats kill with a single bite to the back of the neck, kind of like Stalin. If one comes on my property, it's toast.
I have 800 sq acres of forest beside my place here and I have to agree with you Dave, I wouldn't hesitate if one wandered out of the forest. It does happen but I've not been present.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
This park is about 1 1/2 miles up the mountain from here and hikers spot them all the time sitting on rocks sunning themselves. When some kid gets snatched and eaten everyone will go nuts. I have a 3-4 acre field behind my place and one side abuts the state highway 12. I regularly have Skunks, racoons, foxes and turkeys in my back yard. A mile from here a cat was given rabies by an infected bat. The cougars take a deer a week, and there are plenty left. The deer hang out on the golf course to avoid the cats. One doe had three fawns and spent the whole year bopping around that course without losing any of the kids.
Cougars and Coyotes,
When thinking of either nothing "Cute' comes to mind.
Friends hunted out west for years. I was told that most kills by Mountain lions/Cougars were killed as Dave H describes. but was also told they first consumed the vital chest organs... by going through the ribcage. They discard the stomach and often bury it so it doesn't spoil the meat and that the stomach/intestines smell doesn't attract moochers. After ward dragging their leftovers and hiding it in a cache, often buried or covered with brush. Taking a few days to finish off a mature deer. They are NOT the solitary hunter many think they are. When a dominant dies his range of upwards of 120 sq miles is quickly taken over by another.
Coyotes, I have some experience with, having killed nearly 2 dozen. With night vision I've seen/heard/watched Coyotes push deer toward a no escape corner, like high fencing, or a ambush. After the kill they will eat from the rear end, often leaving the carcass spread out and in dismembered pieces.
Coyotes are in numbers here, Wolves being reintroduced up north.
The Feral Hogs are quickly becoming an issue here that will soon be a major problem.
Be safe and dispatch when needed.
Anyone telling you Cougars are lone animals should see this..... @ 1:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiAReGMArPs
Here is a Newspaper link to the video below:
Mountain lions prove rare wildlife sighting for Bennett Valley residents | The Press Democrat
Is Bennett Valley in Santa Rosa? Is it near Northern CA ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq0oc8jg9ac
Charlie-Painter777
The .30 carbine round is ballistically close to the .357 mag round. Not really suitable for most hunting, it's should be able to handle any 2 legged threat within 100 yds. Even a rebuilt USGI M1 carbine should be reliable for SHTF situations. Operation is really simple, there's little that can go wrong with it. With USGI 15 rd mags, feeding is reliable. Plus, the low recoil, light weight, & short stock make it easy for women/children to shoot. One caveat: don't store loaded mags with a rubber cover; they will rust.
Bottom line folks; 2 different rounds, 2 different weapons, 2 different ballistics, 2 different effective ranges, use a weapon most suited for it's intended purpose or do the best you can with what is available!:surrender:
The real reason I started this thread is because I have been collecting for 30 years and now my wife wants me to sell off everything because if something happens to me she does not want to have to mess with them. I told her I would get rid of everything except what I need for self defense emergency situations. So with that excuse I got to figure what I can keep out of what is left of my collection. I have a Remington 870 riot gun from the Kansas Nat guard, a rock ola carbine, a colt SP1 dated 1977, a original 1941 Garand, 2 1903s , a 1917 enfield, a S&W navy victory, a Remington rand 1911A1, a colt 1911. a 1942 Luger, a early Nazi high power, a Nazi Saur, a CZ27 and a colt detective special. I know the Garand is not in the running for self defense but if I get rid of it I will never find another original prewar Garand. Any suggestion of what I need to keep
Suggestion: List all of your collection with fair market values And put it with your important papers. If you have a decent gun shop close by , go talk to them about liquidating your collection when you move on. This should make it easier on your wife.
There's the one you need for PERSONAL defense. Price up and sell the rest. If you aren't going to sell them then just hand a price tag off them with the established date and forget them. Due diligence is done. You can't control when you go or what happens to your stuff after.Quote:
Originally Posted by rice 123
Like most of us, my wife wouldn't have a clue. These are my hobby joys, not her's. I have a gun inventory sheet for all my weapons. Shows purchased price, date bought, serial number, etc. I gave my wife a copy on a thumb drive. There are still great shops out there. I took her to the LGS and introduced her to the owners, two brothers. They charge a flat fee, $75 for a sale less than $750 and $100 for anything higher. I think that is very fair, a lot of shops hike up the consignment fee. And they pack and ship at a very reasonable rate as well, which usually is paid for by the buyer.
My preference is the M1 Carbine with HP or SP ammunition. I prefer the .30 caliber to the 5.56mm.
Just had this discussion with my wife of 35 years as of August 7th........ (Jim, I purposely kept that quiet).
I've never revealed how many arms I own and don't plan to. But will say I also have my Fathers lifelong collection of lever actions, along with his colt pocket pistols and Sharps carbines.
Her first thought was most should be donated to a Museum.
Is it me? Or does that sound like she doesn't want to mess with this after I'm gone?
Problem is.... I'm not done buying, I gotta find a Stan Pro.
Then there are the other hobby collectibles, Pocket watches, Pocket knives, Fishing tackle, Coins, Fossils, and late 1800's to 1930's fountain pens.
She's an avid shooter with her own target and self defense guns.
This is a topic for further thought on our part (Wife and I), but needs to be acted on.
I also have a son, daughter and young grandson to keep in mind.
Charlie-Painter777
I have a good friend that runs the gun department at a pawn shop. The original plan was she was to take everything to him and he told me he would give her good price for everything. That was the plan but now he is retiring. and that plan is out. So I took a original 41 Remington 03 with a RLB stamped grasping grove stock,( a NZ lend lease) to Cabelas I wanted to see what they would give me for it. I was told 600 I told him the stock was worth that! He told me it Remington did not make figure groove stocks I sold the gun on the CMP forum for 1700. Then a took a 1873 colt artillery in. People ask between 3 and 5K for them on gun broker. He told me Cabelas pay 600 for them. That is when I decided to get rid of the collectable expensive stuff that she could not sell locally I do not mind her getting wholesale prices but I do not want to see her robbed