Help with British ? Colt New Service revolver markings

This 1918 built New Service is a puzzle I have yet to solve. It appears to be maintained by an ordnance facility following British Military ordnance procedures.

It has no US import markings or British Commercial proofs.
It has no British military broad arrow or Enfield inspection markings.

The barrel has professionally been shortened to 4 1/8 inch and front sight reattached, barrel muzzle crowned. British rust mark on left side of receiver chamber area. The entire arm has been refinished in dull military brush blue with no polish marks. Cylinder chambers have been lengthened to .45 Long Colt. Grips are replacement Sile.

The back strap has typical British style markings: * / R P / 9 '59

The butt flat has a star and double H marking. The double H mark also appears on the trigger. The frame (under the grip), trigger and hammer are numbered 25 which I take to mean an assembly number added during the rework/refinish. One source says they could be Colt rework markings??

The date, September 1959 throws me. I am leaning towards this being a Rhodesian Police arm. Comments??

Attachment 85987Attachment 85988Attachment 85989

I would go along with Rhodesia Police too. THey were schooled exactly along UK Military lines

As far as I know, Rhodesia Police didn't exist... though I may be wrong... I often am.
Prior to UDI in 1965, the country was known as Southern Rhodesia, not Rhodesia; Rhodesia came into being on 11/11/1965. But before and after the birth of Rhodesia, AFAIK, the police force were known as the British South Africa Police [BSAP] and were replaced by Zimbabwe Republic Police in 1980.

A nice chronology of the BSAP can be found here BSAP History: Chronology

They certainly did exist, in fact the one and only Reg Seekings one of the SAS originals, was in charge of the Special Branch Anti Terrorist unit which he formed there within the Marlborough Police Service of Rhodesia before coming back to the UK in 1982 to become a landlord at Ely of the Rifleman Arms.

I was honoured to do research into his life history for Lt Jock Lewes family some years ago, who have always professed, as did David Stirling, in a letter to Jock's father when he was killed on 31/12/4 in Libya, that he could call himself more the founding father of the SAS, then he!!

So in short Rhodesia certainly had a Police Force.

Your barrel is post Ww1. The earliest commercial barrels done that way that I'm aware of are the 1919 RNWMP contract revolvers. Remember that M1917 production continued post the Nov 1918 cease fire Un abated into 1919. The barrel is also pre-1928 judging by the single thickness of the front sight blade.

Colt standard barrel lengths for the cartridge and time frame would be 4-1/2", 5-1/2" or 7-1/2".

Could the barrel have originally been a 4-1/2" which was shortened to the current length? Does the front sight look factory?



The only wartime barrels with the re-inforce against the frame are 45acp m1917 barrels.

This was one of the improvements put forward for m1917 production supposedly influenced by S&W.

The grips are either very late 1920s or thru the end of production assembly in 1944... Or post ww2 replacements

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So in short Rhodesia certainly had a Police Force.

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Indeed, when I lived there it certainly did have a police force... But it was designated the British South Africa Police [not Rhodesia Police].

Reg Seekings helped set up the Police Anti-Terrorist Unit of the BSAP.

Rob,
Agree with that, albeit stuff he showed me had Marlborough Police Service on it, which could have, been in those days of British backed Imperialism!!! and been part of a bigger picture of the BSAP one assumes.

Very underrated man was Reg, who, because of his "fiery can do" attitude and boxing prowess, sorted many officers out, which often went against the grain, and in my opinion, and also his peers, who have always stated he should have won the VC on a number of occasions, which were, as per records, held back from him, by those very same officers back home!!

Another story for another day, however, back to the thread, for simplicities sake one has to assume the pride of those that lived in Rhodesia at the time, wanted their own Force which is what evolved IMHO, and it was Humberstone that got him out of farming and made him an Inspector. His "can do" skills would have been wasted on a farm!!

Front sight appears to be factory re-positioned on 4 1/2 inch barrel that was shortened about 3/16 inch. Barrel was 4.5 inch based on comparison of patent information length and positioning markings compared to a factory 4.5 inch revolver.

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Originally Posted by breakeyp

Front sight appears to be factory re-positioned on 4 1/2 inch barrel that was shortened about 3/16 inch. Barrel was 4.5 inch based on comparison of patent information length and positioning markings compared to a factory 4.5 inch revolver.

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Judging by the position on the barrel I think your front sight is no repositioned, it is too close to the muzzle due to the barrel being shortened.

Unless there are signs of silver solder or a locating slot cut into the barrel behind the existing sight location.

LE, you might reconsider your comments. Thanks for the effort.

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Originally Posted by breakeyp

LE, you might reconsider your comments. Thanks for the effort.

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Hello Mr. B, I will blame typing on the phone and auto correct for what ever seems to have offended you. This is the first time I have been able to look at your photos on an actual computer screen and blow them up to larger than "life-size".

To re-frame my answer so that it is hopefully (much) clearer:

Your front sight may well be in the proper position for the barrel to have originally been 4-1/2" long...and subsequently shortened to the present length.

I only have 1 NS with a 4-1/2" long barrel, but note that the front sight is consistently placed in relation to the muzzle position on 4-1/2", 5-1/2", 6" & 7-1/2" barreled guns. The only observed exceptions are the (VERY) few factory "Fitz" specials, which look like overgrown Detective Specials.





I have been collecting NS revolvers for around 25 years now, and I must stand by all of my other observations.

However I have now been struck by something, as you say the gun was built in 1918 ? From my understanding, there was NO commercial production of New Service revolvers from October 1917 thru Feb 1919 - ALL NS production was in the form of M.1917 revolvers during that window.

The RNWMP 1919 shipment of guns (250 guns Oct 1919) (with this same post-WWI type barrel) was serial numbered in a serial number range "block" (143,000-149,000) which pre-dated the USGI M1917 (approx. serial numbers 149,000-305,000) production, so they (by serial number at least) were out of sequence for 1919 production.

I wonder if your revolver was part of the same "left over" (approx. 143,000-149,000) serial number sequencing scenario, and possibly a post-WWI (private?) purchase which was "bought in" or "turned in" for gov't service later...it would explain the barrel profile (but of course not the length), and the lack of Brit military & commercial markings.

Interestingly the "Colt New Service Revolvers" monograph by Bob Murphy (1985) records 1x 4-1/2" and 2x 5-1/2" .455 revolvers as being reported by collectors in the 1919-1928 serial number/frame variation "standard frame" guns.

Thank you for the information. I also have 4.5 inch revolvers and this one has the front sight far closer to the end of the barrel than the other ones I have and consistent with the barrel having been shortened. The barrel length is about 4 1/8 inches not 4.5.