Mystery markings on my M1917

Hello. I registered on this forum specifically for this mystery rifle, although I do hope to post on here more often, especially if I manage to collect even more milsurp firearms. I ordered this rifle, sporterized (I know, that bothers a lot of people) online a while back, and have been wondering about the kanji on the barrel ever since. The marking near the front sight is 12-18, so that appears to be WW1 original. I couldn't get a good picture of it, it was too shallow.

The interesting thing though is the strange markings on the underside of the barrel, accompanied by what looks like "J O"

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../J5OfEfH-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IuenOWn-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...56Sajpg1-1.jpg

I oriented the pictures in the way in which I have assumed, and been told by others, that they would probably be read. Does anybody have any idea what that means, or its origin? I really appreciate you taking a look.

http://imgur.com/a/9HgoF

http://imgur.com/a/zyMOj

I also included the full album of images of the markings I took, and general views of the rifle, if anybody is interested. It is really very beautiful. It looks like someone put a lot of time into sporterizing it.

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to comment on my own thread without an initial reply, but when I was re-assembling the rifle after getting clearer pictures of the Kanji, I found that they were also present on the inside of the magazine floor plate as well, in two additional places. I have added further images to the overall marking album, but here they are as well:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../mwWAUA9-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../A1bnAo0-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../wyHaGft-1.jpg

The Japanese captured a vast number of 1917's when they occupied the Philippines. Possibly yours was one of those? It will be interesting when someone gives us a translation. You might post this on the Japanese forum as well as I am sure they can get a translation.

There were also a good number of "17s sent to China and other friendly Asian countries before and during the war. This may be one of them.

Thank you for the replies. I am aware of the capture of some of these in the Philippines and did seriously wonder if the kanji were Japanese in origin. I would definitely post this in the Japanese rifles section, or anywhere else that might be more appropriate, if I were certain that the markings were Japanese. I was also, remotely, aware of their use by the Chinese.

I have spoken (prior to posting this thread) with one person directly who is quite good with Japanese, and have indirectly contacted another. The first didn't exactly recognize all of the characters, or the English translation of the their literal romanization. The second, going off of my old, blurry/hazy picture thought they recognized アザートン, romanized as azaaton, which apparently translates to Atherton. There was a U.S destroyer escort during WWII named the U.S.S. Atherton, which did operate in the pacific theater near the end of the war and today, ironically, is in service in the Philippine navy, having previously belonged to the Japanese following WWII.

I'm no expert, but the kanji don't seem to me to match those that were romanized as azaaton, no doubt because of the poor image quality. This may well all be possible, but it seems to be quite a stretch to me that the name of a U.S. destroyer escort is engraved in Japanese on a rear-echelon, infantry rifle, especially since this destroyer doesn't seem to have ever been captured by the Japanese during the war, unless the Japanese retained and fielded some full-length M1917 rifles after the war on naval vessels? It appears that that vessel was acquired by the Japanese in 1955. Additionally, the Japanese obviously renamed her while in their service.

I was mostly hoping for something similar to this having been seen before, because Google searches for anything similar have yielded nothing, although I don't yet know for sure what I'm looking for either.

i have seen a few of the Aisian owned 17s, what i found best,
is to have an actual Japanese person that can read it, tell you what it is.
like alot of things, info on the net can be wrong.
i have a couple friends on FB that live in Japan, one is a historian, and has helped me a few times with such markings

I can't offer a solution, but I think that before diving into interpretation it would be helpful to consider WHY the markings are placed where they are? Any kind of rack number, ownership marks or other such public statements ("This is OUR rifle") would surely be placed where everyone can see them?

Marks on the bottom of the barrel or - and this is really extraordinary - on the inside of the floorplate, where no-one can see them without dismanting the rifle, are therefore hardly ownership marks but something to do with parts/assembly identification.

And just to muddy the waters even further, I would be cautious of assuming that they are Kanjis of any kind. In fact, to my eyes they look more like Naga (North-East India) characters!

Or how about reading them from top to bottom - I see PHIL... in a kind of runic script...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xb0xisbetter

Thank you for the replies. I am aware of the capture of some of these in the Philippines and did seriously wonder if the kanji were Japanese in origin. I would definitely post this in the Japanese rifles section, or anywhere else that might be more appropriate, if I were certain that the markings were Japanese. I was also, remotely, aware of their use by the Chinese.

I have spoken (prior to posting this thread) with one person directly who is quite good with Japanese, and have indirectly contacted another. The first didn't exactly recognize all of the characters, or the English translation of the their literal romanization. The second, going off of my old, blurry/hazy picture thought they recognized アザートン, romanized as azaaton, which apparently translates to Atherton. There was a U.S destroyer escort during WWII named the U.S.S. Atherton, which did operate in the pacific theater near the end of the war and today, ironically, is in service in the Philippine navy, having previously belonged to the Japanese following WWII.

I'm no expert, but the kanji don't seem to me to match those that were romanized as azaaton, no doubt because of the poor image quality. This may well all be possible, but it seems to be quite a stretch to me that the name of a U.S. destroyer escort is engraved in Japanese on a rear-echelon, infantry rifle, especially since this destroyer doesn't seem to have ever been captured by the Japanese during the war, unless the Japanese retained and fielded some full-length M1917 rifles after the war on naval vessels? It appears that that vessel was acquired by the Japanese in 1955. Additionally, the Japanese obviously renamed her while in their service.

---

They aren't Kanjis, but Katagana.

In regards to Japanese service weapons post-WWII, I believe there were a lot of American arms (with the whole occupation of Japan). Look at how they converted some Arisaka Type 99s to .30-06 when Korea was going on as that was the new common caliber. Your also very unlikely to find much information about it, as Japan post-WWII isn't a popular research topic for firearms.

A destroyer would also be a more likely place to find a M1917, especially if you were sending it to a ally who you wanted to have similar gear but not the best standard. Retained and fielded M1917s post-WWII not be the best way to put it, rather likely received M1917s as post-war armaments from the Americans would be a good possibility.

I wish I did know an actual Japanese person. Unfortunately, I do not.

I had been thinking about the same thing, Patrick Chadwick. why the underside of the barrel and inside the magazine floorplate to begin with? If you look at the entire album, it even looks like the magazine floorplate is Winchester-made, while the Receiver (and probably barrel) are Remington, yet they have identical characters, seems odd that they would bother matching up the magazine floorplate to a receiver that's already mismatched. Reading from top to bottom had been guessed by me, and further suggested by those who know Japanese kanji/katagana/etc, before I started this thread.

All of my responses on this specific thread were made before you identified the characters as Katagana and not Kanji, in the Japanese thread. I honestly do not know the first thing about traditional Japanese characters, and assumed that all were called Kanji. Do we really know for sure that Japan was using .30-06 Arisakas? The only thing I can turn up about Arisakas being converted to .30-06 was for use in Thailand, and absolutely nothing about Japan using the M1917 at all outside of captured rifles used by Japanese police when they took the Philippines. A U.S. coastguard vessel was sent to Greenland, which dropped off 50 M1917 rifles for its inhabitants to use to defend against the Germans once Denmark fell against the Third Reich during WWII. For some reason we have plenty of information about these 50 rifles, and how they were put to use, but absolutely nothing at all about post-war use of the M1917 by the Japanese, as these Katagana may suggest. Maybe, assuming that this is the case, the Japanese have records of this having taken place, which have simply not been translated into English and/or are hidden away in some dusty filing cabinet somewhere in Japan. In that case, you would think there would be an appreciable number of similar rifles as well, and I can't seem to find a trace of any others like this one yet.

I have, thus far, been told by two different people, including Eaglelord17's acquaintance , that the Katagana translate to Atherton, but assuming that this is 100% accurate, the question of why the Japanese would engrave the name of a U.S. navy vessel into its rifles when the vessel will not even be called this while in service with the Japanese navy. I do believe that you're 100% spot-on about it being Katagana, as I found literally every single character other than the vertical line in the center in a Katagana alphabet table.

The more questions that are answered, the more pop up with this thing. I'm beginning to think this is going to remain a mystery unless someone who just so happened to be a former Japanese Navy armorer aboard a former U.S. Navy ship, somehow happens to see this and recognize it, which still assumes that this is actually related to why these Katagana were engraved on the rifle/s.

OK, so let's go with Katakana characters. Katakanas are syllabic characters, i.e. consonant plus vowel combinations. And assume that ALL marks are deliberate, not accidental!

Take the first photo in the original post, and read it top to bottom.

First character is an A with no preceding consonant.
Second character looks like a Ta, but the small marks above and to the right are not accidental, but diacritical signs, in this case dakuten or voicing marks. So the Ta is to be pronounced as Da.
Third character has me stumped, unless it is just a hyphen (remembering that katakana is used for transliterating words in Western characters). It is more likely to be the symbol for a long vowel, written vertically, thus makiing the Da into a Daa.
Fourth is a clear To.
Fifth is not N - the small stroke top left is part of the character. It is So.

We now have:

ADaaToSo.

And as to what that means - your guess is as good as mine!
I repeat - these are marks that can only be read if the rifle is dismantled. That must be a clue.

I have done some more digging. These characters are definitely not related to Chinese. I searched them all against every Chinese character that exists, at least those compiled on an "exhaustive" list online, and none of them matched. I think you're right about the vertical line still acting as a long vowel mark, as websites I have found have said that it can be written either vertically or horizontally. All translations I have gotten to that effect, other than yours, including online translators, Patrick Chadwick, have come out to AZĀTON or AZAATON in romanji, translated to Atherton in English. The translation of ザin every location I have checked (3 or 4 online) comes to z or za.

ア a
ザ za
ー (acting as a second a)
ト to
ン n

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...kana3gif-1.jpg

This website does mention the long vowel mark being used interchangeably in either vertical or horizontal form: http://www.japanesewithanime.com/201...ound-mark.html

Additionally, according to C&Rsenal, the 10,000 rifles sent to China as a part of lend-lease were shortened into carbines, with a 22" barrel, because the Chinese were having problems handling the full-length rifle. I have measured my barrel again to be sure, and it is the standard 26".

Although, still, none of this makes me any expert of any kind. Thank you all again for your input thus far.

This may be dumb theory but you said the rifle was sporterized could this be a mark of a company in japan that my have sporterized the rifle

Sorry chaps, I slipped again (I blame it on my glasses!) It's Azaaton, not Azaatono.

However, I am still not happy with the reverse Anglicization as Atherton, as the Anglo-american "er" is definately not a long "aa", but a short vowel "uh" (sorry, no phonetic script available).

Regardless of the interpretation of the markings, we are still left with the fundamental questions:
1) Why mark the rifle in a place that cannot be seen unless the rifle is dismantled?
2) Why mark a part that is not important for basic functionality (such as barrel, receiver, bolt)?
3) And why mark that part twice?

Rice 123, were there companies that were mass sporterizing M1917s in Japan? I knew of only mostly Winchester and/or Remington doing it, since they had made the rifles to begin with, and had plenty of parts and know-how to turn them into nice sporters. My guess is that it was not sporterized by a company. If it was, someone did a significant amount of custom work to the rifle some time after that, but I'll let the images of the alternating bluing, hand engraving, and hand checkering speak for themselves.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Qgw4iPZ-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../O3iLX2q-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../G0uXZS1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../p9MfIea-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../jTXK6Nf-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../lDOD1VJ-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../sD2mx9M-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Y2u6WRM-1.jpg

If that was done by a factory, it must have still been an extensive custom job. If that factory was Japanese, why would its mark be an Anglo-Saxon name and not a Japanese one? It would make more sense that it were an English gunsmith ... operating in Japan, plying his trade to the Japanese market, which seems pretty far-fetched to me, even before knowing that the laws regarding weapons in Japan literally begin with "No one shall possess a firearm or firearms or a sword or swords", with very few exceptions. From what I'm reading, private gun ownership has been, for all intents and purposes, outlawed in Japan for 3 centuries.

Patrick Chadwick, your guess is as good as, or better than, mine. I think we're going to run into more questions than answers unless we stumble upon someone who knows exactly the situation in which this was done.

All we can be reasonably certain of right now is that whoever engraved that word on the rifle was Japanese. Does anyone know of any knowledgeable Japanese historians who might have at least some idea of the practices of Japanese arsenals who could shed some light on this?

I think the answer maybe quite simple now I can see the whole rifle. It was not uncommon for US service folks to have Japanese and German engravers do work on US servicemen's sporting rifles after WWII. Where there was a citrical shortage of work by the engravers. I believe the Japanese (sic) engraver just signed his work. Just my thoughts.

--fjruple

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fjruple

I believe the Japanese (sic) engraver just signed his work. Just my thoughts.

---

I'll bet that's it too...

A Japanese engraver signed his work with a non-Japanese name? Why engrave it, in the largest/grandest way, into the barrel when there's no other engraving on the barrel?

That is good to know, however. It would make sense for Japanese and German engravers to be working on personal servicemen rifles immediately after the war.

Maybe it is where the rifle has to go back to after being finished (in this case the Atherton?). In any case it looks nice

I suppose anything, however unlikely, is possible. If we do say that maybe it was a Japanese engraver, marking an Anglo-Saxon name in Japanese, then the bluing still would have likely been done later, unless those who could engrave (outside of gunsmithing, since that market would pretty much not exist in Japan) could also blue metal parts in Japan.

As far as it being marked as such just for return to the correct ship, why would it be marked in a way in which the rifle had to be taken apart in order to double-check? Also, from what I am reading, it looks like the Atherton never actually directly visited mainland Japan until it was transferred directly to the Japanese.

It does look quite beautiful. I was surprised when it arrived.

Is it possible that it was signed by whomever did the work in the typical humble style of the Japanese? You will never see the makers name on a Samurai sword blade. It is always hidden beneath the grip. Perhaps this is the same thing? - Bill

OK lads, I made a couple of mistakes. It is Azaaton, and just to be sure I made a reverse check and entered Azaaton in the online "RomajiDesu". It produced the text as on the rifle.

But I still find it totally implausible that this is a Japanese transliteration of a ship's name. That is, for me, just wishful thinking. The signature of the engraver seems more likely, as suggested in previous posts. Written in Katagana because Hiragana characters would be very awkward to chisel into the metal in the confined space.

And it certainly is a piece of work worth signing.

I think that it being related to the U.S.S. Atherton is implausible as well, I did to begin with after the first translation before posting on this forum. I can't think of a situation in which someone would engrave an Anglo-Saxon name on a rifle in Japanese either though. Assuming that it was an engraver marking their work, which is at least the best theory we have so far, do we know why they would engrave their name in the barrel with fairly large katagana, when the barrel has otherwise not been engraved? It definitely isn't an aftermarket barrel, unless the WWI-era markings and rifling were being imitated. The markings on the magazine floor plate are tiny by comparison, even for the relatively small available space.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xb0xisbetter

I think that it being related to the U.S.S. Atherton is implausible as well, I did to begin with after the first translation before posting on this forum. I can't think of a situation in which someone would engrave an Anglo-Saxon name on a rifle in Japanese either though. Assuming that it was an engraver marking their work, which is at least the best theory we have so far, do we know why they would engrave their name in the barrel with fairly large katagana, when the barrel has otherwise not been engraved? It definitely isn't an aftermarket barrel, unless the WWI-era markings and rifling were being imitated. The markings on the magazine floor plate are tiny by comparison, even for the relatively small available space.

---

I would envision that the engraver probably not only engrave the parts as a signature but as an inventory to ensure that same parts went back into the same rifle after engraving. The engraver probably used the rifle owner's name as a control. The "name" engraved on the barrel is a control for the other parts being engraved which makes sense. Additionally this even makes more sense if several apprentice engravers are working on the same project. The other thing to keep in mind is that as a general Japanese population before and after WWII was prohibited access to personal firearms so they would be unfamiliar with the guns that are being engraved. I cannot speak for the processes in Japan but I am familiar with post war Germany. Usual engraving was done through two ways, the easiest way was through the local Post Exchange system which sold firearms to the US service members. The Post Exchange would have one or two engravers and gunsmiths on hand to provide these services. Sometimes the US serviceman would take parts of the firearm to get engraved directly to the engraver since the local engraver could not be in possession of a complete firearm. I have also seen this circumvented as I recall a totally 100% engraved Colt Single Action Army revolver that was given to the engraver and he would not engrave the revolver the way the US serviceman wanted. The US serviceman was totally surprised when he got his revolver back it was totally cover in Germanic style oak leave engraving, silver plated, and the backstrap was engraved the standard poetry, "be not frighted of any man no matter what his weight, shape or size, just call on me and I will equalize.." The German engraver was a American West geek who loved Cowboys and Indians. (The TV show "Bonanza" was very popular at the time in Germany and the US serviceman was from Texas.) The gun engraving only costed the serviceman about $400.00 which was a lot of money for a Captain in those days. Today who knows how much it would cost. I cannot speak for other local US Post Exchanges located in Italy and Turkey where I know the US servicemen could buy firearms. I know local gunsmiths were available but I do not know about engravers. I believe a lot of the engraving was encouraged by the local military governments after WWII as these folks are extremely talented and needed work to feed their families. When I was on active duty in 2000 in Germany these local Post Exchange gun buying and engraving had disappeared to conform with local laws.
Just my two cents worth

--fjruple

Thank you for the information, fjruple.

I wouldn't say that really settles it, but it is more likely than anything else we've thought of yet. It does, again, bring up more questions than answers though. Supposing this was a Japanese engraver, engraving the last name of the customer on the rifle, and engraving in multiple locations to ensure that matching parts went back together into the same rifle, why only the magazine floor plate and barrel? They're already mismatched at that point. You would think if anything would need fitting if mixed up, it would be the bolt to the receiver, which was not engraved at all (although maybe they didn't even remove the bolt throughout the whole process). The magazine itself is also not engraved, which pretty much just falls out when the rifle is disassembled. I'm no expert on the subject, but weren't various types and/or treatments of steels used on different rifle components, as needed, even as far back as WWI as well? That would make using the barrel as a control a little pointless, unless they were certain that this was no the case. It also seems like an awful lot of work for just keeping track of which parts go to which rifle.

Assuming that all of the engraved components are made of the exact same type of steel, with the same treatment, and the engraver was aware of this (or was completely aloof of this and assumed as much), the idea that multiple engravers were getting a feel for the material would definitely possibly explain there being 3 separate engravings of the same name.

That Single Action Army story is fascinating. It must be beautiful.

I guess the thing we will really never know for certain about the history of the rifle without going back to the previous owners. I know the Japanese captured well in excess of 200,000 M1917 rifles which were supplied to the Philippine Army in the late 1930's. Without going back to the owner who sporterized the rifle its going to be impossible to determine specifics.

--fjruple

PS-- Having seen the fully engraved Colt SSA Revolver you could not but love the workmanship on the revolver. I wish it was mine, I was considering having one done myself but I was leaving for back in the States.