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Hi guys,
I just acquired a (Quote) P1907MkII*, issued in WW2, eastern theatre, with Indian forces. Also found with a rounded pommel like that on the P1907 bayonet (the MkII no *, both fullered and unfullered). Most were destroyed or stamped "DP" after the war.(Unquote)
Mine is unfullered with the"DP"
What does the DP relate to?
Thanks
Drill Purpose
Thanks a lot for the answer. I had no idea.
I don't know who told you this but I probably have around 8 or so Indian 1907 mk2s, none of them D.P.s, none of them excessively expensive for me to buy and they don't seem especially rare in the U.K. to acquire, currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspen80
For some reason, they are no longer "cheap" in the US. They do seem to be rather common and about 50/50 DP marked although some of those are just the white stripes which many might be removing. $75 seems to be the going rate at present.
Thanks to all for the comments.
I had not seen one before and this one was for sale at a gun show for $20, so I bought it..
FP is now thought to relate to Delhi Police, I have pictures of them using the bayonets with the white band on the hilt during training. Delhi Police is a lot more men than would account for the DP marked as drill purpose. Also Drill Purpose bayonets tend to be blunt tipped not sharp, whereas most DP are still pointed
http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/...nets.htm#INDIA]
I take it you meant DP...and of course you can find pics of people using DP bayonets in training. A point or edge MAY be dulled or blunted...should be by the book but they weren't all done the same. I wouldn't believe for a second that "DP" means Delhi Police...Quote:
Originally Posted by old-smithy
I would only ever disagree with Smithy about bayonets with a GREAT deal of trepidation, thought and consideration. But I'm inclined to agree with BAR on this one just based on the fact that while DP on a bayonet or rifle might indicate Delhi Police - in the same way as RR might also indicate Rolls Razor (as in Sterling magazines), in the world of small-arms and life generally, DP is DRILL PURPOSE in my experience. As does RR indicate Rolls Royce. Bayonets (and rifles...) are downgraded to DP for all sorts of reasons. But to me, DP is DP is DP..., Drill Purpose. To use a well accepted, unambiguous and absolutely relevant set of initials to indicate something else in a similar context would be a recipe for, if not disaster, then total confusion. Just my considered opinion.
Think ZF = Zimbabwe Forces or condemned? DP = Dublin Police or Drill Purpose?
But if a bayonet is downgraded to D.P. status would you expect there to be at least some physical changes to the bayonet, such as rounding off the point, or are some bayonets downgraded to D.P. status, marked D.P., and no other actual physical changes made to the bayonet?
Usually, but not always. Some get missed and it's a Friday job...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
There are loads of cases where common acronyms will get you wrong ;
SAS, is Small Arms School not Special Air Service, or Scandinavian Air Services, you'll find 07's with these pommel marks, or it could be South African Railways
http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...sso20sar-1.jpg.
The original DP marked 07's which were official issue were marked on the pommel end and had a very rounded point, but were only produced in very small numbers, The official one was dropped from the lists and normal 07's were used instead.
The DP for Delhi Police is gaining ground, as so many show no signs of rounding or wear and damage that could be ascribed to use as a training weapon. What we need is an Indian collector that can do the research in India, I've written to thee museums and the army for information with no response at all.
DP can simply mean it's no longer suitable for service as in obsolete. New Zealand DP'ed a bunch of Enfield rifles for that reason, nothing wrong with them, they just wanted them off the books.
$20 is a steal for one of these these days, you did well. I paid $20 for one about 5 years ago and then watched in amazement as they kept going up and up and up. Bargains are still out there.
I've checked all my Indian 1907 mk2 bayonets tonight and none have the D.P. marking but I have noticed it on examples for sale but I don't recall seeing one of these with a rounded point. I have, previously, seen the "D.P." mentioned on-line as being possibly standing for Delhi Police in relation to these bayonets but I have been slightly sceptical about this information because I have not seen any evidence to back up this claim. It could be a case of one person suggesting the idea and others repeating it.
If "D.P." does indeed stand for Delhi Police would it not be reasonable to assume that if they would mark all/most of their other equipment in a similar manner, including serviceable rifles? Perhaps they do/did mark their equipment, other than bayonets, in this manner? If Delhi Police did mark their bayonets this way, would it not be reasonable to assume that other Indian Police departments would have marked their bayonets in a similar manner? Has anyone seen "B.P.", for example, marked on 1907 mk2 bayonets that may have once belonged to the Bombay Police?
I've always considered the DP marked bayonets with the white band to be Drill Purpose.
Re thread 12. Not quite as you say Smithy. A good point of course but while SAS did indeed indicate Small Arms School, it was changed immediately the Sp Air Svce came live. Thereafter the identification symbol for the Small Arms School became SASC - so as to avoid any similarity. Same as when the Corps of Signals became the ROYAL Signals, RS became associated with the old Royal Scots. So one became RSigs while the other became RSct.
Mind you, if I had a DP marked bayonet - or anything else now that I think of it - and a collector of Indian Police memorabilia had a large wallet and needed a Delhi Police bayonet, I'd have magically found him one!
DP= Drill Purpose; as does a white band
Military markings identification always takes a beating when interpreted by civilian's imagination...
[QUOTE=Flying10uk;408454]I've checked all my Indian 1907 mk2 bayonets tonight and none have the D.P. marking but I have noticed it on examples for sale but I don't recall seeing one of these with a rounded point. I have, previously, seen the "D.P." mentioned on
This is one that got me as well, I've never seen any other than DP. The DP question I remember first coming up as Delhi some 15 years ago form a very well informed dealer in the UK when I was writing my CD on the 1907. I also remember a big discussion some years ago that was quoting the size of the Delhi police in relation to others, and it all made sense as Delhi, unfortunately that data has been mis laid.
here is one picture with the white stripe hilt and I mentions that it is a school in Delhi - so not army although how their ROTC or whatever works I don't know - maybe DP mean Delhi Province???
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hort2007-1.jpg
the second picture shows a white stripe, again this is related to a college so again not necessarily military
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ia201907-1.jpg
and finally a WWI picture of training and the blades are not roundedhttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...training-1.jpg
The bayonet assault course is EXACTLY where you DO use DP rifles and bayonets. That's about the hardest course on rifles and bayonets so you don't want to damage serviceable models. These would be handed back, next man, next man... I can't even see any DP markings on the last pic, the second from right hand man perhaps? No fine detail to be seen on those bayonets edges...
I would imagine that like the rest of the world and certainly here in the UK, the Army Cadets (same with Navy and RAF) Cadet Forces and public schooll CCF cadet Forces are wholly equipped and funded by the MoD. My last word on the DP saga is this. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and waddles like a duck, thin it's usually a duck. If it's got DP on it..............
If they are doing bayonet practice with scabbards attached it probably explains the unusual damage that there is to the chape on the scabbard to one of my Indian 1907 mk2 bayo's that has been brazed repaired but then partially damaged again. I've been trying to figure out how it may have been possible for this damage to have occurred, for several years, and I wondered if it was some sort of fluke battle damage. Probably just bayonet training/practice after seeing photo 2 above. I will see about posting a picture of it another day.
In the book, if men are present then the scabbard not only has to be on but we go further and tie it in place. I've seen untied scabbards come adrift. It's not for the gallows, but for man to man practice. They aren't to be jammed into the ground or targets, just so they don't injure a man. When attacking the gallows or ground or targets, they're normally bare blades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
BAR is right. When men are on the fighting ground, usually with 'parry sticks', on the advance to contact towards the dummies on the gallows scabbards are always fixed and tied
Ok, thanks for the information about keeping the scabbard on, Jim and Peter.
Here are some pictures of the bayonet and scabbard which were taken before I read your posts. I have posted them for interest and to ask if anyone can figure out the damage to the chape, please. This is how it came to me and it does look like damage rather than a manufacturing fault. It looks to have been repaired by being brazed but then partly damaged again. Has anyone seen something similar to this before? Perhaps the soldier who was using it had to crawl over very rough rocky ground for a long period and the chape rubbed over rocks???
Just what we call fair wear and tear. I've seen scabbards FAR worse than that after a days fighting in the FIBUA house clearing gallery.
On an aside BAR and Gil, do you remember that some of the long parry sticks had the hard cloth covered ball on one end (as shown) that the DS would try to 'bayonet' you with or push you about but some parry sticks also had a 4 or 5" steel ring on the other end that he could swing around and hook your rifle and bayonet with so you had to wiggle it free and back-off. REALLY hard knackering work on IT days (Infantry Training days....) for us REME blokes
It really is hard to say what happened. It's like the injuries of a man over decades, often he can't even tell you ho it happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
I remember them well. Ours had a manila rope loop at one end and the other had a large knot of a lump. The stave would have been 6 or 8 ft long. You tried to point the loop and if you missed you could expect a buttstroke with the heavy end. It was more for balance I think that effect. The NCO would sometimes have the loop at a tree so you could try to pin it. Then a miss would bring the knot to the back of the helmet... We had the M1 helmets Peter, yours would have been a disaster at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I can't even tell you how I got injuries from yesterday. My wife will say "what did you do to your back?" No idea, huge bruise or cut. Legs, arms, cuts, bruises, no idea half the time. High pain tolerance and I just keep on going.