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As many have seen, I was fortunate enough to stumble on a No.4T barreled action and am almost ready to start the restoration.
Big question is, once colimation of bracket is complete, would I be commiting cardinal sin by stamping the rifle serial on it?
Sane question goes for scope serial on butt.
I know the general idea is once I'm long gone or rifle is passed on it may be sold as a legit T sniper, but would it be so incorrect??
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cpk5zsgd-1.jpg
Not at all. Just go ahead. It makes no difference. It just means that later on down the line the new owner knows that he's got the correct bracket on the rifle and correct telescope in the bracket. Just my take on things
Personally, I think an honest mis-match looks far better than a rifle that has been obviously stamped up AFTER it left military service. Peter would have re-matched rifles often, but that was in his official capacity, & to me at least, that makes a big difference.
I have, well, a number of 4T's, most of which are honest mis-matches, & I'm perfectly happy with them. But of course, it's your rifle, so what you do with it is entirely your decision.....
Stamping serial is completely wrong. Especially if you scrub an original number. Armorers could do that. Collectors can not. It is called Humping.
Makes me wonder how many rifles across all types are humped. Many probably were not even humped for profit.
Guy stamps his rifle he will never sell. Then he dies. Wife sells rifle to dealer. Dealer sells rifle to unsuspecting collector as all matching and at a huge mark up.
I have to agree that if you stamp a number now you're making it look original...and after you part with it the rifle will be touted as original.
Jonh: They left H&H without a stamped number so I would suggest just leaving it blank or electropencilling the rifle serial on the back to help keep it together with the rifle (after all the effort you've gone to to collimate it). Nothing good can come from post service stamping in a manner meant to replicate the real thing. Just one opinion.
Ridolpho
To come to an acceptable conclusion, I suggest you reflect on these questions:
1) Is it a legal requirement?
(no)
2) Is it necessary for the correct functioning of the rifle?
(no)
3) Is it misleading for a possible future purchaser/user who does not know that you did the stamping?
(yes)
---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------
... is quite simply fraudulent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
Thanks guys, lots to go on here.
Just to clarify, if I haven't already, I do not plan to commit any act of fraud, this is simply to replicate what actually happened to these rifles once they were setup CORRECTLY. (I emphasize correctly as I wouldn't even consider stamping of bracket not collimated).
I would like to remind or at least inform all that this rifle is in fact a legitimate 1943 no.4mk1T that I purchased as a stripped barreled action to further relieve the minds of those that believe this to be a distasteful fakery.
The idea that an individual may conceive the rifle as original in the distant future certainly does disuad me, but given the bracket will be collimated to the rifle would also be a good record to ensure that bracket stays with this rifle.
Perhaps as suggested a serial etched or stamped on the rear would satisfy both sides...?
Anyway, thanks again everyone!
Build thread to follow!
I am about to have the same dilemma when finishing my No4t restoration and think I have decided that I will stamping the correct number of digits for the serial in "X"s in the replacement stock on the wrist besides marking the date of restoration somewhere in the forend. It will sort of be an effort towards an authentic detail that does not stray too far towards sacrilege but in addition if anyone ever stamps a fake serial or S51 into the stock later or sands it off it will look very, very odd.
Not too much one can say when you've decided. I don't have to worry anyway, I won't be challenged with buying it later.
That sounds reasonable
What was done in service is legitimate. Many sniper rifles had markings added or changed during their service life and that is part of their history.
Having worked in museums for 40-years, mainly as a Curator, the ethics of this situation are very clear to me. To add any facsimile of original markings (e.g. Serial numbers, maker's markings, sniper "T", National markings etc.) after a rifle has left the military, is forgery and is unethical. It will eventually be sold without the buyer(s) being informed of the falsified markings. Making a sniper rifle match in numbers after it leaves military service is a way to greatly increase its monetary value. People do get greedy. If you restore a rifle and colimate the scope mount & scope to the rifle, then by all means enjoy it, but please do not forge any markings.
There were several thousand Stevens-Savage No.4 Mk.I or Mk.I* (T. LESS TELESCOPE) rifles and many orphaned scopes and brackets floating around. These are some of the easiest rifles to falsify as British sniper rifles and indeed they are usually sold as "sniper rifles" with an original scope and bracket added. There is one on Gunbroker as I write this. To add a "T" stamp, scope, bracket with the rifle SN added and stamping the scope SN on the butt falsely makes it look like it was a very rare Stevens-Savage No.4 Mk.I or Mk.I* (T) for collectors and at least doubles its price to unsuspecting future owners.
To use other examples: a standard 1860s firearm with added Confederate markings jumps in value if people believe the markings to be authentic.
Re-enactors want "authentic" kit and suppliers provide high quality "replicas" of helmets, clothing etc. Age it a bit and it will fool many collectors. Much of this kit has wartime dates falsely added and sometimes the only difference in markings is the maker's initials. As one who bought a rare expensive 1943 dated uniform only to discover later that it is a re-enactor's copy, I can tell you that the feeling is not good for the victim. Such forgeries spoil the hobby. Many people have stopped collecting Nazi items, not because of politics, but because of the forgeries and high prices. There are companies "restoring" US WWII helmets and they will paint on real (e.g. Band of Brothers markings) or fanciful (e.g. FSSF) markings, modify the bales to very rare paratrooper "D" ring configuration and age them. That is clearly forgery.
How many times have you seen a rifle at an auction complete with its known history and what was changed on it? Not very often. Most times, Executors and widows have no idea where the info is and auction houses usually do not care.
On the Milsurps Lee-Enfield Knowkedge Library there is at least one rifle with forged markings for sure and a probable second rifle with false markings that have been profiled. One is a Trials No.4 Mk.I rifle, converted to a sniper in 1941-42 and a later civilian owner stamped the mismatched scope number onto the butt as verified by a previous civilian owner who stated that this scope number was not on the rifle when he had previously owned it. That rifle is now permently damaged and this depreciates its value. The backsight maker's mark was also altered from Fazakerley to Enfield. Another rifle has "4 CDO" (my Dad's unit in 1943) stencilled onto the butt and a fanciful story that has been concocted to give it an impossible and glorious wartime "history". In that case the falsely painted on markings could be carefully removed and the story scrapped, but as long as they remain with it, it is tainted.
I bought an M1 Garand with Canadian issue markings but after careful research, I discovered that they could not possibly be authentic. I carefully sanded them off and sold the rifle for what I had paid for it.
Historically restoration of automobiles has been seen as increasing the value of the vehicle whereas restoring a firearm (especially a pre-1900 one) was viewed as decreasing its value. Today many ex-military Lee-Enfields etc. are restored using mainly original parts. Some collectors do not like this, but if done well, and not stooping to false markings, it can usually greatly increase the value of the rifle, especially those that have been sporterized or are a dog's breakfast of mixed makers' parts.
Falsifying...yes, that sounds reasonable...Quote:
Originally Posted by jonh172
All well stated Colin...
What method do you recommend to ensure a properly collinated bracket forever stays with it's rifle but isn't in a manner to fool a future buyer?Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I think the idea of stamping the serial plus something to prove it was done post war isn't falsifying at all, actually the exact opposite.
NOTHING ensure anything after it's out of your hands. You can only control your own actions...just like stamping these. It's not up to us, you asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonh172
With a couple of rifles I have put together with a mix of parts, old and reproduction (USA, not Commonwealth), I have worried that in the dim future someone would attempt to increase their value by stamping "authentic" marks on them. I solved this, to my satisfaction at least, by stamping obviously not original marks, like a 2001 barrel date on a WWII rifle.
Its a tricky one marking up a rifle.
I say, its your rifle to do what you will with it.
The fact that you are sharing it with us shows that you aren't trying any slight of hand. I would perhaps add a marking to show its status, Just in case someone in the future tries to pass it off as an original rifle.
Let's not even discuss the so called "original" WW2 Mauser Snipers that come on the market, I personally only know of one genuine example in Denmark with a verified family capture history...
Seems virtually all of them are fakes...!
The days of splitting up the components an original sniper rifle are safely in the past when they were a dime a dozen and had no serious collector value. While not absolutely impossible, the odds of anyone taking components off a rifle worth several thousands of dollars are pretty damned low.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonh172
Let's not forget this was just a $20 part you started with, and most of the rifle will be your hard work. A perfectly honest way forward, IMHO, would be to re-build and re-stamp as you wish; and then stamp the inside of the 'scope bracket and the inside of the barrel channel "Re-built by Jon H 2017"
If you have a mismatched scope/bracket /rifle and choose to put on permanent markings, what happens when and if you find a factory matching item? What if a potential buyer down the road says "no sale" because he does not ageee. What if you change your mind later? (Been there, done that)
In museums we put accession numbers on artifacts so as to be able to link the history to them and do inventory control. This marking was usually done semi-permanently and semi-permanent is recommended. So, in answer to a question above of how to ensure that a newly colimated scope stayed with its new partner rifle, might I suggest putting semi-permanent markings on the inside of the bracket or underside of the scope?
Remember the old Dymo Tape labelling machines?
RECOMMENDED: Probably the easiest method today is a modern label making machine such as those made by Brother. One can often make the printing much smaller if desired and Brother for example sells tapes of varying adhesive power (normal and super sticking power). We do not know how many years such tapes will last, but I use a Brother label maker and so far I have not noticed any problems. The biggest drawback is that the tapes are always (?) black letters/numbers on a white background. Adjusting the letter size to very small and trimming the excess tape off before applying the tape to the item in a discreet location can help. I use this for accessioning many of the items in my collection which is handy. If you have a helmet worn by a Victoria Cross or Congressional Medal of Honour recipient or by a relative, and a second identical helmet bought at a surplus store you want to know which is which!
Then there is the old fashioned museum way which has a very low cost but takes time and is not nearly as tidy:
1. Use clear nail polish to create a background to print on. Allow it to dry fully.
2. Use India Ink or a contrasting permanent white ink to print the SN. Permanent white ink is a pain to work with. If the nail polish is totally dry, a super-fine marker pen might work.
3. After the ink is totally dry, put on a covering layer of clear nail polish to help prevent the lettering from being rubbed off. It is best to do this in one fell swoop because repeated swipes will likely soften the earlier coat of nail polish and cause smearing of the numbering. Blobs of ink when writing are a normal problem.
The above can be removed with nail polish remover if you ever change your mind.
Some museums have put on permanent numbers with electric engravers or metal stamping the way police told us to mark our valuables years ago for ID. (How many firearms and swords have you seen at gun shows with Social Security or Social Insurance Numbers engraved into them?) This is NOT recommended. The Canadian War Museum used to use 1/4" high (approx) metal stamps to stamp their catalogue number onto firearms. Sadly they did this in the most obvious locations!
Whatever method you use, remember that gun oil as well as wood and leather treatments may affect it, so do monitor that will regard to any semi-permanent markings that you put on.
I have stocked up with a few spare 1907 scabbards over the last few months and I notice these have been marked with what I assume to be serial numbers on the top of the locket at one time in the distant past. Why anyone thought it necessary to serial number these items I have no idea because they are all interchangeable and now as they are just spare scabbards they are just meaningless numbers.
Soldiers who lose their bayonets are prone to swipe someone else's bayonet. Numbering the bayonets helped identify whose bayonet it really was. The bayonets that came with the No.4 MK.2 rifles post-WWII were serial numbered to the rifle.
If you think that this is anal, think of the WWI Germans who even numbered the sling swivel and muzzle cap on the Gewehr 98.
Thank you for the comprehensive explanations Seaforth72!
A discreet, semi permanent marking sounds best.
Colin, thread 22. We NEVER serially numbered bayonets, ever! Someone might have, but not us. All serial numbering does is make it a matched part and so far as I recall, all bayonets were fully interchangeable. If not, they were fixed so that they were - or scrapped.
If someone lost a bayonet or a magazine or a cleaning kit out on exercise etc, he sneaked into the Arms storeman and explained his plight whereon a deal might be done to the benefit of all concerned....... But if he reported the loss to the DS, such as BAR or Muffer or Gil then they all went back out to look for whatever was lost. It concentrated the mind a tad regarding looking after your kit
But in answer to whether to number the mount or not, if it wasn't numbered, we didn't bother to number it UNLESS for very specific reasons
There's no telling who may have stamped the serial numbers on the scabbards after they left British service. It could be any country that used the 1907 bayonet.
This being a bit aside but...that's a weapon part now and as such is subject to a summary investigation. Also an MP Report. All this means a charge so yes, we form up and search like we've lost a button and need to find it..."No stone" so to speak...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Yes, baksheesh and dope deals. Beers for bayonets. Every storsie had a few spare, and mags, compasses... Let's not get into the scale of issue and accounting shall we? "A" class, "B" class..."C" class...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Are these Aussie scabbards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
No, U.K. made scabbards. I do have several WW2 era Australian 1907 scabbards and I haven't noticed a serial number on the Australian ones, although I haven't thought to look on these particular ones particularly closely.
Aussie bayonets were issued and numbered to the rifle to some time after WW1, 8 to a crate/ box. There will be a MD number on the scabbard lockert: 5MD 1234 which will also be stamped on the knox
This is the bracket in question I want to stamp. It has been heavily modified and bears a serial from it's original setup.
I doubt any future buyer will be fooled into thinking its in anyway original to the rifle.
When I get a good reproduction from Roger, then I can see the issue with stamping it.
But this one is.... what it is.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...96m7e0ja-1.jpg