Read in between the lines for me.

I recently added an older carbine to my collection from a private seller, selling for a friend.

I noticed an electro penciled number on the butt plate very discreetly done. It looked like an inventory number of sorts. I chatted with the vendor and he could not help much with the provenance except that he believed that the carbine was part of a large collection out of Ontario purchased by a museum in Alberta. ah ha! Museum, inventory number, I need to find what info there might be on the ledger entry.

I got in touch with the museum, and got the following reply. No further response from the museum to any further questions.

Read this and tell me your take on it.


I am sorry but the sale of these firearms did not include the collection records. There is no one to do this work and the purchaser was not interested in the provenance which was reflected in the purchase price.

Destruction of these records is pending.

To me, this is a polite way of saying 'not interested, bugger off!'.

Yup. That's exactly what they are saying.

The number isn't a nine digit is it? Is it a social insurance number? That was done lots in the '60's.

Yes, they aren't interested in looking for any info for you.

No, not a social insurance number.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IesLmySP-1.jpg
Tis on the face of the butt plate at the edge. Very neatly don, very discrete electro pencil 'M1.1088'.

Could be museum inventory number. Could be a collection id number. Could be many things.

Just surprised that a museum would let recorded historical info wither. All will be history once the records are destroyed.
At one time they thought that the carbine was worthy of exhibiting. But if they dont have the resources and somebody to find the records and look it up, I can understand. Most small museums are run on a volunteer basis.

The trail has gone cold, we will never know.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mvbMXsDN-1.jpg

I worked in museums for 40-years, mainly as a Curator and Manager.

I can say without doubt that those museum staff are lazy bureaucrats and are not dedicated museum people. The key point of museums is keeping the history associated with the artifact! This is called provenance. They will make excuses of course.

The wanton destruction of such records is morally reprehensible. This is like a doctor transferring a patient to a new doctor and refusing to hand over any medical records.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by englishman_ca

not a social insurance number

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Nope...looks like a record of some kind.

It sounds like there might be some serious resentment over the prices achieved on the sale.

If it is possibly to visit in person you may get someone more friendly to your enquiry.

If they refuse again i would at least name and shame the museum. I understand that sometimes museums sell items outside thier normal needs but i wouldn't donate anything to a museum that would actively destroy the provenance of something they are passing on.

How is the museum funded? If it has public funding you may be able to apply pressure through a local politician.

NZ carbine?

The figure in the butt is beautiful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by henry r

NZ carbine?

The figure in the butt is beautiful.

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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2lp6MxcZ-1.jpg

The private sale Lee Speed carbine actually pre-dates the NZ contract carbine by about ten years.

These were apparently sold to officers to take with them overseas to South Africa.
A little bit better than a sword and pistol I would think.

The workmanship is a tiny bit better than military arms and the wood is certainly selected for its figure.

I gently cleaned and steamed this one. It started out looking like a beater but it came up well.
Somebody years ago had shellacked the wood, and I found traces on the metal too.
Shellac was an old school method to protect and is common to find on old hunting guns used in the weather. It works very well and I wished more old timers had done it.

The wood underneath is starting to pop after about eight or nine sessions with raw linseed oil. I wish that I could find some walnut lumber like this.

Spent quite a while working on the bolt and sear. Bubba had improved things by fitting a Sht.LE cocking piece. With the angle of the bent, it felt like it had a twenty pound trigger pull! I found a Metford cocking piece in the bins that was a take off from a commercial rifle, so it is perfect for the Lee Speed.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hiYSDuWT-1.jpg
The sear position has to be adjusted so that it sits just so. It has to be able to catch the bent and be blocked by the pistol grip safety catch. Neat mechanism that is so simple yet effective, it is pure design genius..

of course... no top handguard. I didn't realise that some commercial models used martini carbine style foresights.

it is the first officers pattern carbine I've seen pictures of.

add a thumb safety, lee speed patents on the wrist, commercial lee pornography.

BSA or LSA?

is the bolt original? (with the standard bolt handle an option)

you must have a stunning collection of pre charger bridge carbines now.

I will do a thread once I have the little carbine looking respectable. I am too busy shooting the thing right now to pull it down. That will be a 'make pretty, make nice' project for this winter.

The carbine has had a hard life. The wood is so worn (not sanded) that the checkering is smooth and all but gone in a couple of areas.

Bubba has had this in his tool shed. The front sight ramp was at one time of very similar form to that on a long rifle. However, the sighting being typically low, somebody slotted and inserted a brass blade into the ramp. Not an uncommon thing to see, and if done neatly does not detract in my opinion as it makes the rifle more useable.. However, Bubba set the windage with a hammer and pounded on the ramp either to remove it or bend it over. It is bent like a banana, but point of impact is on point of aim!.

He also had a crack at the rear sight bed and tried to remove it too. Typical Bubba marks. He took the screw out and started pounding on the sight bed to remove it from the barrel not realising that it was also soldered in position. This Bubba was smart, he did apply heat to melt the solder. Pity that he didnt take the action out of the wood to do this. I have a couple of scorch marks to patch on the barrel channel edges.

It is a BSA. The bolt is original in that it is serial numbered to the action. I guess that rifle bolt was an option and a wise one. The carbine bolt looks neat and allows the carbine to slide into the saddle scabbard, but it is not the best for cycling the action rapidly. I dont think that it would be possible to do much of a mad minute with a carbine bolt.

The finish is completely worn off from handling, it has a wonderful patina, I love it!
I just wish that I could find out about its provenance. It has had a lot of use. I am sure that if it could talk it would have a few stories to tell.

The collection is coming along. Many of my complete and original specimens are devoid of woodwork right now as I get my wood duplicator cranked up.

The only carbine that eludes me right now is a Baltic carbine, an official factory conversion.

I have just the one rifle with a charger bridge. And I have that one so that I can mount a drill and tap scope rail.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...H3pBxl1m-2.jpg
Chambered in 222 Remington

one of these?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...56996540-1.jpg

I had to look it up to see what you meant. I had seen the picture but didn't know what it was.

now I look at it I really like it, a carbine length CLLE, it they ran a Sht LE magazine it would be near perfect.

Yes, that would be the one.

You'll need to "befriend" someone who works there and get hold of the info that way, and I would waste no time doing so.

Another reason such records might be destroyed would be if a museum was "de-accessioning" artifacts that they were not supposed to, or which had some terms attached to their donation which they do not wish to honour. They might even have been loaned rather than donated and if the original owner is dead, or not compos menti, or his family doesn't know or doesn't care, you can imagine the possibilities.

According to what I was told, the Canadian War Museum was given the Dupuis collection of Ross Rifles and then proceeded to junk most of the papers, experimental work etc.

I will echo Colin's comments based on my own impressions: a lot of the people in museums these days have little appreciation for artifacts, their provenance and history generally. Museums are quiet and comfy places to put up one's feet, and build a nice resume and portfolio of "projects" etc. Artifacts can be such a damned nuisance: always having to store them, conserve them, move them etc. The old boys club is being replaced by a not-so-old-girls club in a lot of these places and from my personal observation a lot of these people don't give a damn for artifacts or history per se. I had one tell me recently how much she "would love to get rid of" a whole category of artifacts from their museum.

Also, a lot of the politicized p_____s who are around these days have a visceral hatred of firearms which they are glad to put into effect where they can.

It's a competition for financial resources in the end, and "our" wages and benefits wins every time with many if not most of the present generation.

And of course a surprising number of people in museums seem to regard the artifacts as their personal property or near to it, rather than things held in trust for present and future generations of which they are just the hired custodians. A gent now deceased who was familiar with most of the museums in BC told me about half had a problem with theft by staff members and some of the examples he mentioned were downright grotesque.