Proof Marks......

I know it pops up now again and must admit I've bought stuff without checking the proof as its either come from another dealer as trade or similar, so I was just getting some pics of my Enfield No8 as its going on the market shortly and give it a quick check over..........

Proof marks are the crown over BM, on the Bolt head, bolt body, Body and barrel, the barrel also has the .22LR Nitro Proof engraved on it but no later commercial proof marks.

I know every one has different views and my view is why proof something twice but thought I'd have a look on the net to see if it is all above board as you never find anything carved in stone but was quite happy to find this snippet of info on the link below, It may be of interest to a few, scroll own the page to see the, Official proof of BSA Rifles and Shot Guns, think it explains it all.......

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Dating%20your%20rifle.htm

"The official proof covers in all particulars, the exacting requirement of the Government"

Well, that does seem to cover the proof prior to sale requirement Geoff...

John, Thats what I thought but still no mention as to the Birmingham proof house etc, only in the article above regarding the secret coding, in this case the two little crossed swords (not to be mistaken for the crossed flags Military proof) very similar to the Birmingham deac marking, My No8 has this which tells me it was inspected by....... and proved in 1953 at the Birmingham Proof House........

Out of interest I phoned the Proof House this Morning, explained what was on it etc, they replied its an old proof mark and should be submitted for re-proof as it doesn't have the BNP mark although it does have clearly stamped on the barrel NITRO PROOF.

So another trip to the proof house........

Mmmmmmmm....... where does it say that something has to be proofed TWICE. You don't get your car MoT tested twice. It's either IN proof or it's NOT in proof Geoff! Money making scam. 1953 is hardly '....an old proof mark' or an out of date proof' I'd contend

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Out of interest I phoned the Proof House this Morning, explained what was on it etc, they replied its an old proof mark and should be submitted for re-proof as it doesn't have the BNP mark although it does have clearly stamped on the barrel NITRO PROOF.

So another trip to the proof house........

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Actually the whole "requirement" to "proof" your rifles IS a scam.

Think this one fact through; In dealing with a no8 (or No5, No7, No9 ect.) what you have is a centre-fire action which was designed & manufactured for 45,000 CUP operating pressures which has been converted to .22lr; Yes I know a No.8 was "manufactured" as a .22lr, but really it wasn't, it's a No4 forging which has been machined slightly differently.


In addition to that, I'm really not sure how they commercially "proofed" my No4Mk2 as it is still in it's original Dec 1954 manufacturers packaging...the so called "mummy wrap", yet it has had the muzzle exposed and a commercial BNP marking applied, while the bolt is still sealed, and the bore is full of packing grease.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Mmmmmmmm....... where does it say that something has to be proofed TWICE. You don't get your car MoT tested twice. It's either IN proof or it's NOT in proof Geoff! Money making scam. 1953 is hardly '....an old proof mark' or an out of date proof' I'd contend

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My thoughts exactly, but thought I'd run it past the proof house first........... I was under the impression it was a 100 year old rifle that requires re proof and as you say a 53 rifle with Nitro Proof stamped/ engraved I thought would of been the deciding factor, The BSA snippet explained more than enough obvious outdated but its covered the requirements by law.

But as its on my RFD books and could be sold to anyone (with the right license) need to cover ones self. luckily have some other bits that I need to submit so its just an extra rifle.

Just a pain as I could struck a deal at the Weekend with a prospective buyer.........

Ahh the thorny issue of proof marks as required by law in the UK..... It is a legal requirement that any firearm / shotgun that is sold or even offered for sale in the UK must carry recognised proof marks either issued by the London or Birmingham proof houses or have been proofed in accordance the C.I.P. ( the international Proof Governing body), a list of countries covered by C.I.P. can be found on the internet.
I have attached three documents, two which outline the responsibility of RFD's and the third is a rather old copy of proof marks that will be found certainly on some of the guns that readers of this may have.
ALL UK military firearms will have been proofed at some point and marked as such, unfortunately these proof marks are not valid once the rifle leaves military service and passes into civilian hands.
It can be seen that there are different marks for "military" proof and "definitive" proof and a gun that only carries military proof marks MUST be resubmitted to the proof house for re-testing.
For example, if a rifle that carries only the Birmingham Crown over BM military proof mark is to be sold or offered for sale then it must be re-submitted for re-proof . Failure to do so potentially leaves one open to a very large fine but this does beg the question of how did successive British government bodies manage to sell off thousands of un-proofed guns to the general public!!!!!!!!!
I know that the London proof house "Definitive" proof mark has remained largely unchanged but the current Birmingham one now reads Crown over BNP. Proof marks can be very small and difficult to read especially on older arms but it is the responsibility of the seller to ensure that an arm is in proof so if in doubt get it checked.
From a business point of view if you buy an un-proofed firearm then technically the seller is breaking the law but as dealers we have all by accident or design bought out of proof firearms which means that you have to go through the expense and potential hassle of getting it tested and of course if it fails and the fault can't be rectified then you could end up with a pile of scrap on your hands.
Guns submitted to either the London or Birmingham proof houses will usually be marked on the barrel, action and bolt, the barrel marking is often engraved at the muzzle on the underside complete with the calibre ie proof mark .303, however if a gun is of historical importance and the owner does not want to degrade and original finish then the proof house can apply "minimal marks" but this has to requested at the time of submission.
Attachment 86489Attachment 86490Attachment 86491

Sorry guys it seems that the documents have not converted very well and are unreadable I will try to repost them....

Proof really is a total scam isn't it. But as a legal requirement we have no choice but to rigidity follow the act, no matter how ridiculous it is.

Especially the RFD's amongst us. I know we have discussed various issues that might possibly arise from selling a rifle out of Proof in the past.

If for instance there was an accident on the range involving a rifle sold out of Proof, the shooters insurance "might" refuse to pay out.

We all know insurance companies look for any get out regarding payment.

if they could prove a rifle was sold and used in contravention of the Proof act they would probably have their get out.

The insurance is the thing these days, Thats one reason a RFD friend decided to not to entertain full bore rifles anymore,, they can have all the proof marks under the sun, but you don't know what Joe public has been loading his hand loads up to, I know a few who have crossed the safety margin many times....... up to a point and often seen on the range with a mallet trying to get the bolt open.........

Even Public Liability insurance won't cover you , its Product Liability is what is required.........

Yep product liability Geoff, if people realised the personal liability they had
(even as an employee) they wouldn't sleep at night!

I remember being briefed on product liability when I worked for VAG 25 years ago, we were told several horror story test cases to drive the point home...

The Proof House has a vested interest in proving things as often as possible so that they get paid all over again. Recently they tried to persuade the government that everything should be reproved every time it changed hands so that they could make money out of it.

Recently they tried to persuade the government that everything should be reproved every time it changed hands so that they could make money out of it.[/quote]

I quite agree about the proof house making money as they seem reject rifles that in the past would have flown through.
Their favorite is "headspace", a gunsmith friend of mine has recently had guns returned with "excessive" headspace given for the reason for rejection even though he double checks every gun before it goes and he uses exactly the same gauges as he has always done.
It is impossible to argue with the proof house as they hold all of the cards and there is always a danger that "trouble makers" will find themselves at the back of the queue when it comes to getting stuff through the system, the only thing to do is keep quiet and take it on the chin.
I am not sure where the little gem in the above quote came from, but this is the first I have heard of such a proposal and I am sure that it would have gone round the trade circles as it would have been impossible to implement as the proof houses can't cope with the workload they already have.
I think it was probably just a good rumour to start by someone who got very p155ed off with the proof house, but then again I could be wrong................:madsmile:

Rifles that have been gauged with calibrated gauges, submitted with the current/in date calibration certiificates issued by the calibration department have been failed. ........... Nope..., I don't understand it either! Maybe someone ought to ask to see their certified calibration certificates. It's like being booked for speeding and the cops refuse to allow you to see or verify the accuracy of the cop car speedo. It'd be laughed out of court. But when you are a law unto yourself................

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

The Proof House has a vested interest in proving things as often as possible so that they get paid all over again. Recently they tried to persuade the government that everything should be reproved every time it changed hands so that they could make money out of it.

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The fact of the matter is that over (standard) pressure "proof firing" weakens and damages firearms by reducing their service life.

There has been much discussion & study regarding this in US discussion forums, specifically relating the the USGI requirement to proof fire M16 bolts.

Any "requirement" to repeatedly expose a firearm to such treatment defies logic, and any "liability reduction" thereby is simply a figment of the imagination (and again a defiance of logic & sanity).

CIP with Italian 2014 proof mark on my Longbranch probably imported from the Italian Navy stock they were given at the end of the war.Euroarms or Pedersoli (not clear who) tried to match guns to bolts and were successful about 50% of the time.
Looks newish with little or no useage marks.
If you buy a Longbranch from Henry Kranks it will in all probability have the CIP and a lettered date in a Square next to it.