Wouldn't it be nice if all the missing weapons documents and plans of WW2 turned up like these did in such detail on microfish??
WW2 Mosquito aircraft blueprints found at Airbus factory - BBC News
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Wouldn't it be nice if all the missing weapons documents and plans of WW2 turned up like these did in such detail on microfish??
WW2 Mosquito aircraft blueprints found at Airbus factory - BBC News
Wow what a find
It's lucky that someone realised what they were before they went into the skip. The group that are trying to recreate a Sterling bomber cockpit/fuselage section have no original drawings to work with, I believe.
What you can't just Google it?
Tongue planted firmly in cheek.
It's amazing what nearly gets thrown into skips:nono:, what actually gets thrown into skips:yikes: and what gets pulled out of skips:clap:.
Watched a program where a fellow almost threw out five million dollars worth of baseball cards found in his Aunts attic . Whole stacks of turn of the century cards some of which only a few were known to exist.
If they build one that would be great apparently there is a "Mossie" in a barn somewhere in NZ'ed I heard whilst over there on hol's 7 years ago has had the outer wings removed so it fitted in the barn by all counts the owner starts up the Merlin's occasionally lots of stuff has been found in barns take the bloke who brought a farm with a gigantic concrete shed on it that was locked no one bid on the farm, when they got into the barn it was jammed packed with rare and vintage cars the realized value from memory was $20 million.
As a footer;
I hope they do build a mosquito.
As the glue they used I am unsure how long it was meant to last as the service expectancy of a WWII air craft was measured in hours we know some lasted for years & years but in the scheme of things they had to keep building them to make up for all lost causes.
The mossie nearly did not get the nod from the MoD and it was quite the battle by De-Haviland to get the prototype built for evaluation when they did there were some issues discovered in the test flights one of which instead of a nearly full wing aileron they split it just behind the engine nacelle but other than that it performed beautifully beyond expectations, it went on to a brilliant career as a Pathfinder/Bomber, Night-fighter & Reconnaissance plane "Cats Eyes" Cunningham flew one as a night fighter pilot Britain's highest scoring one.
It was the Germans most feared adversary, what happened was they were placed in the bomber streams to stooge as a bomber with I think Monica radar so the German night-fighter thinking it was attacking a lumbering Lanc found itself being attacked by a nimble fighter/bomber armed with 4 x 303 & 4 x 20mm that blew them out of the sky quite literally.
The Germans respected the plane so much they had built a prototype of the "Mossie" based on reverse engineering from downed Mosquito's in fact it was ready for testing when bomber command unknowingly bombed and destroyed the only place making the glue "Tigofilm" (Tee-go-film) all the formula's were lost as well as the equipment to make the glue if they had succeeded in getting them into production then the night "Battle of the Ruhr" may have seen bomber command losing allot more aircraft/crews.
As someone who appreciates the aircraft, the technology that went into building them, and the artistry of engineering drawings I would pay good money for frame-able A4 or A3 copies of some of the Mosquito drawings. Admittedly I would have to fight the wife for wall space to hang them - that is, after I convinced her they really are works of art.
I think they may be missing a few bits of info in the article... like the guy in NZ that has built a fuselage buck and turned out at least two airframes inc one that is flying in the US with kermit weeks.
Talking of throwing things out. When clearing my father's house I made sure I kept all the old photographs. This one I dismisses as just an aerial landscape until I looked at it with a magnifying glass. Three mosquitos, possibly Belgium, winter 1945, 418 sqn City of Edmonton RCAF.
PS: the old lad is still around
You never know, he may have been involved in Operation Jericho, which, for the Mosquito was an epic achievement and a feat of great airmanship by all crews involved few of which were home grown English pilots, the majority were brave Commonwealth pilots.
If you haven't heard of it before take a read for five minutes.......outstanding Military combined achievement. I have some footage somewhere, I'll see if its on disk not tape and put it up.
Operation Jericho - Mosquito Attack on Amiens Prison - 18th February 1944 - The Peoples Mosquito
Here it is a Pathe news piece: Jailbreakers - YouTube
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On the same theme, here is a piece of footage on the gun camera pod and the weapons used on the Mosquito, very interesting for the time bearing in mind it was plywood and Rolls Royce Merlin engines and nothing else............a frame that stood up all that shaking and achieve so much.
DeHavilland Mosquito gun camera film - excellent! - YouTube
Unfortunately not. He joined 418 sqn before Christmas 1944. The Squadron flew intruder missions and used the Mk6 fighter bomber. However, I believe they were the highest scoring Canadian Sqn.
Yes I notice the RCAF and RAAF lads made up a lot of the specialist crews, as did 617 Sqn the Dambusters, who had a large group, and they seemed to appear towards the end of the war ;)
When I was at boarding school in the late 50's/early 60's, my friend 'Dutch' Holland came in with a shed load of photographs that he'd got off his dad and they were all low level reccy photos of different bombed out sites in Northern Germany plus loads of machine gunning the sites on the run-in to take the photos. I don't suppose his dad was particular who was strolling about along the run-in path as he just hosed them all down with cannon and MG fire. Well, share and share alike as they say in polite RAF circles! I don't know what he was flying but he was flying Canberras when I knew him and gave the school a large scale aerial view of the school, taken as though it was a bombing target, all marked with co-ordinates, heights, attack levels etc etc. Hung in a frame in the senior library. He also had some leaflets printed on thin flimsy paper that were dropped over Holland and Belgium to apologise for the noise that they had made the previous night and to take care of any downed airmen they found who might ask for help and treat with reverence those who would not be returning home again - and that they would be amply rewarded when the RAF had finally finished the job. VERY sobering, even now when I think about it. Yep, very sobering
The de Havilland museum, near London, is very interesting and is well worth a visit. They also have a section of Horsa glider on display or they did when I visited a few years ago. I was amazed at the thickness and weight of the section of glass from the Mosquito's bullet proof windscreen which was on show. I believe that what is now the museum site is where de Havilland had their design centre situated during WW2.
World War 2 Piston Engine Aircraft de Havilland Aircraft Museum
The whole of the De Havilland team is based on the second floor of building 213 a two level RAF building with The Parachute Regiment archive downstairs at Duxford, or Airborne Assault as its correct title within the Imperial War Museum.
It is one of the original buildings built in 1933 on the north side of the A505 road, and still has the faint outlines of two tone camouflage paint on its exterior. Across the road is a small original wooden ship lad building no bigger than 20' x 30 ' which has been rebuilt on site, and is the original De Havilland designers workshop brought up piece by piece from Surrey, where
Moths, Bulldog, Tiger Moths, Chipmunks, and all things De Havilland including the DH82A.
Some history and the DH Dragon Rapide flies every day from Duxford airfield around the City of Cambridge for those who want to buy their family that special gift. An aircraft once treasured by all those who learnt Military freefall from.
Some history De Havilland has, with the Sea Vixen/Vampire and many more besides.
The Mosquito was actually built at Hatfield on the A1, where after the war and after its flying history became a film studios and where the final scene of Saving Private Ryan was filmed.
Hatfield Mosquito factory 1944 Geoffrey De Havilland would be proud of where his company went.................................
They talk about needing £7million to make a flyable replica of the mosquito from the newly found drawings...... If they can make a brand new steam loco for £1.5m I'd want a LOT of mosquitos for £7m
The Standard Motor Company built just over 1000 Mosquito aircraft during WW2.
The Curtiss H81 and H87 (Tomahawk and Kittyhawk) drawings were largely intact on microfilm rolls at the Smithsonian. What didn't survive are the fixture drawings! We utilized old factory floor photos and as much intact pieces as possible to reverse engineer the tooling. Along the way, it was discovered that the frame drawings that were retained have some dimensional errors. One area that comes to mind is in the firewall area. IIRC, the engine mount distances from the split line are fairly badly out! (As in there's no way you could make it work, trying to fit existing parts to an assembly created from the drawing. Not even with a big hammer!)
Peter,
Agree with that price assumption, when they can build a brand new Spitfire for 2 Million at Duxford, as long as the fragment if recovered from land crash sights has a serial number on it to identify the donor. Seven million sounds very high, perhaps a price made before this discovery.
A good friend at Duxford, has now personally built and assembled two Blenheims.
He crashed in the first one which nearly cost him his life, as he was in the upper turret, where the perspex slashed his neck, but the second one and the one now flying around airshows in the UK, he constructed from all remaining parts including a whole cockpit which he bought from a man down south who had made it into a car, and luckily kept all the pedals and other bits which would have been a nightmare to rebuild without drawings ot having the piece in your hands.
He has just finished a Lysander he built from scratch...........amazing skills.
A bit like building a valuable rifle!!
Gil, do you know what happened to the Mosquito that was owned by the Imperial War museum that had had one of it's wings cut off, years ago, so that it could be displayed against a wall inside the main museum complex in Lambeth, London? There was talk of doing something with it some years ago but I don't recall what exactly. Thanks.
No idea, but there is a yellow bellied one right outside our Airborne Assault museum at Duxford hanging from the ceiling
Looks like a target tug with that yellow colour scheme. Somewhere I have part of a red canvas/cloth target that my father picked up in a field during WW2 after he watched it being shot down during target practice.
Mosquitos were also made in Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdSOmA7DHdM
Nothing like a good "foosilidge" hey old chap what?:lol:
So...maybe someone should have just started making them...wouldn't they sell like hotcakes? Wonder how much they'd go for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
The film about De Havilland Canada construction of the Mosquito is quite interesting too:Mosquito Construction - YouTube
Jim,
I would hazard a guess that 2 million would be about right with two real Merlins not some other make fitted. 7 Million is way way over the top.
I would say the problem would be a supply of Merlin engines, maybe the 7 million is not far off, as they would have to contact the guy who was looking for the Spitfires in Burma see if he had any engines plus spares...:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
I came across a certain air museum in NZ'ed that had 2 WWII Merlin's brand new still in the crate in the grease so to speak, I said to them they are at a name your price on the open market now days........... (they weren't for sale)
Please BD6 not the Burma Spitfires again you know Peter L has the inside run on one!!!!!
Not sure what the rules are abroad, but I understand here in the UK, they can't be built unless there is a recognisable ID plate to attribute to a new build.
Useless bit of information now, the Rolls Royce plates often survived crashes and gave a definative ID on a plane, because they were made out of brass, not thin alloy as many believe!!
See I told you, you learn something everyday:)
What I would like to see is a Mossie doing a gun run with A) 4x303 & 4 x 20mm cannon all at once and another with B) The "Molins" gun firing away.
We could have a B-25 Mitchell with the 75mm cannon followed by one with I think the 12 x .5's up front doing a strafing run now that would certainly make it a worthwhile competitor to the A-10 with its 30mm GAU
There must be quite a few Rolls Royce Meteor engines about, based on the Merlin, out of Centurion tanks. Does anyone know if it's possible to convert/reverse engineer a Meteor engine into a Merlin engine, for aircraft use by way of modifications such as fitting a 2 stage supercharger plus numerous other modifications? Or is it technically impossible because of the way that the Meteor engine is constructed, to do such a conversion? I seem to recall reading that some components were common to both units?
Just some light humour Cinders, but to be honest I very much doubt anyone would part with a Merlin unless it was to keep a Spitfire, Hurricane or similar flying and I know I would be the same.
It would be nice to hear the sound of 2 Merlins roaring over head on a newly built Mosquito, but lets save them for the needy that are still flying....... Maybe someone has a shed full of them and willing to make a few ££, I would guess the alternative would be a Packard Merlin as these were mass produced, unlike the Rolls which were basically all hand built.
Maybe Jmoore has a few contacts for spare engines.
A small snippet from Sir Stanley Hooker's book.
While Rolls-Royce’s manufacturing techniques churned out very high quality engines, they simply didn’t jibe with Packard’s way of doing things (or Ford in Manchester for that matter). In his book “Not Much of An Engineer”, Rolls-Royce engineer Sir Stanley Hooker recalls his introduction to the matter with Ford:
“One day their Chief Engineer appeared in Lovesey’s office, which I was then sharing, and said, ‘You know, we can’t make the Merlin to these drawings.’
I replied loftily, ‘I suppose that is because the drawing tolerances are too difficult for you, and you can’t achieve the accuracy.’
‘On the contrary’ he replied, ‘the tolerances are far too wide for us.’ We make motor cars far more accurately than this. Every part on our car engines has to be interchangeable with the same part on any other engine, and hence all parts have to be made with extreme accuracy, far closer than you use. That is the only way we can achieve mass-production.’”
Funnily enough, I do know an ex RAF Aircraft engineer who has a working Boston engine in his garage in Coventry it is a 1,600 hp Wright Cyclone of which the Boston had two. I did a 30 minute film on the Boston Sqns at RAF Great Massingham in Norfolk many years ago as the aircraft fascinated me, one seat up front, but a very versatile bomber, and would you believe not one in the IWM collection flying. It all started from a chance meeting with a real wartime RAF hero of WW2 who lived ironically at Duxford Sqn Leader Evans DFC DSO.
He bought it in the days when noone wanted such junk in working condition on its cradle as that was his job during the war keeping the Bostons and Havocs flying, so I imagine on that basis alone, someone will have a Rolls Royce Merlin sat somewhere.
You could be wright Gil, see link below,
Bonhams : A Rolls-Royce Merlin V12 Aero engine,
There is no indication of it's current condition but the £20,700 price tag, that it went for, sounds very reasonable even if it does requires a complete recondition.
Just think if you bought a Spitfire frame that had been built needing an engine......save a small fortune matching them together;)
It would be a better investment than putting money into a bank or building society, at present, given the current levels of interest, Gil.
That was a 2009 auction and don't forget the 25% premium...........
Geoff,
Neverth less still a cheap sale in todays standards for such an iconic piece of history, if you also the space to park it
True Gil, Out of interest I trawled the net yesterday in my tea breaks looking at various Merlins and facts and figures, couldn't find much much up to date stuff though, but some figures from 2005 based on a Spitfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Engine removed for Overhaul at 500 hrs, rebuild costs circa £85,000.00 before spares etc.
Appx 8hrs maintenance to 1 hrs flying......
Link below regarding two Griffon engines but from an Avro Shackleton, I'm guessing all or most in collectors hands are take out ones with no more air miles and sold off rather than repair, guess back then with a hanger full of New or previous rebuilt engines it was cost effective to bin the old ones when the Aircraft was due to be replaced.
Not quite an aircraft but the same Gravy when I was looking for parts for my Matchless, searching high and low for cams for the engine, in the end they come from Germany NOS in there original 1956 box.....
Griffon: Chance to own rare successor of the Rolls Royce Merlin engine as three are auctioned | Daily Mail Online
Please do tell Cinders!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Nooooo Nooo we went through this for ages about a pie in the sky on crated Spitfires being buried somewhere in Burma and as yet naught has happened in them being found or even existing it is like that thing we did at school you know the first person tells the second the second the third until the message goes around the class room back to the 1st teller.
It may go like this ~ "The orange fell to the ground" comes back as "There are 12 new WWII orange Spitfires crated and buried in Burma." get the drift...........
There's plenty of Merlin engines still available, there modular construction means that there is very little that can't be remanufactured. The RAF probably still has hundreds of them tucked away in collections etc.
The meteor is basically a merlin and can be converted, there are even Meteor engines that were once merlins, these were engines that were no longer air worthy but were perfectly fine for ground use for example an aircraft which landed wheels up and damaged the prop. I think it was Rover who converted these. They also had a Meteorite version of the meteor which was diesel!!
The army must, surely, have still had a few spare Meteor engines in store into the early 1990s because there were still a few specialist/modified Centurion "engineer" tanks in service with the British army until then.
Those spare engines have just come up for sale (well back in Feb) they were rebuilt at Warminster in 1991 (probably a rush for Gulf War 1) and have been in storage since. I think it was BV Trading who purchased them from the MOD.
I was tasked to move a couple of Centurion tanks on to the Anti Armour firing ranges many years ago.
I contacted Col Pay who has a flock of warbirds to see if he was interested in the engines, organised a deal with Range Control and tasked my Tech Support boys to do the job as a training exercise.
Every one was happy.
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I was tasked to move a couple of Centurion tanks on to the Anti Armour firing ranges many years ago.
I contacted Col Pay who has a flock of warbirds to see if he was interested in the engines, organised a deal with Range Control and tasked my Tech Support boys to do the job as a training exercise.
Every one was happy.
---------- Post added at 08:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------
Well that was interesting.
10 hour job to remove a Centurion engine. I have a funny feeling that it'll only be the very basic engine that could be used. Nothing else and in real life, it's not the bores/pistons/crank that wear out. They don't even sound the same. Even outside the tank on a test bed facility the meteor doesn't sound like a merlin. I'm not sure that it's a goer.........
It is pretty much the basic short block that is the same. The ancillaries are lighter on the merlin and obviously has the supercharger. There are also different marks of the merlin that have substantial differences and not all are interchangeable without modification. That's the beauty of the modular design.
If anyone remembers the near loss of the BBMF Lanc a few years ago, the initial cause was thought to have been caused by the incorrect clearance set on the valve gear. This was required as the Left cylinder bank had been replaced during the winter overhaul. There was a lot more to the final outcome but the investigators believe that where it all started.
Actually, the meteor is just a de-tuned merlin, lower compression, only running one bank of plugs, variable timing fixed etc.
One of the engines we supplied found it's way into a Mustang, before being replaced by a Packard, another block was set up in a water bomber/agwagon.
That used to sound real good.
What a lovely sound and must have been a proud moment to fire her up after 17 years inside
Spitfire MK XVI - First Engine Run in 17 Years! - YouTube
The biggest difference is that the meteor has to rotate in the opposite direction to the merlin. As a result the cams are different and the starter Motor is beefed up. The supercharger and reduction gearbox are also removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
The job of testing all types of weaponry on these Rolls Royce laden aircraft must have been phenominal, with retightening of bolts and ancillaries a frequent task!. If you bear in mind the air frames, especially the wing constructions where most of the ammo was stored, with the exception of the Mosquito, I am surprised you could here yourself talk!!
The Spitfire the "role model" leaped from 8 X .303 Brownings with 300 rounds a piece, to 2 X Hispano Cannons one in each wing. Down side was that when the cannon jammed which they often did in combat, the remaining cannon threw the aircraft well off course and off target. They then moved onto 2 x 0.5" Brownings to support this issue on the later Marks of the Spitfire/Hurricane, an unbelievable achievement in a short stressful five years of WW2 IMHO.
Spitfire Gun camera actual combat footage - Battle of Britain - RAF - YouTube