303 Brass Web Seperation

I finally got smart and bought a neck sizing die for my 303,s as I have 9 of them and have found that with full length resizing I only get about 3 reloads before my Casemaster tells me it is time to dispose of them. 2 questions: 1 how many reloads should i expect to get when neck sizing 303 cases? 2 was sitting here waiting for my computer to restart before doing something else. There were 6 cases sitting here so just for fun I went and grabbed the Casemaster and checked them . These have been fired 3 times now from new. One of them has evidence that there is a problem with the web. So I then checked all my fired cases and this is the only one. The line hasn't appeared on the case. Was this case defective from the beginning? Or am I worrying too much?
:surrender:

IMO it is tough to give a estimate how long a case will last. I have a few hundred .303 brass so rarely shoot any one case that often so have never had a fail. I just touch the shoulder so hope to get at least 7 or ??, have some at 3 now.

If loaded close to max. for sure that will cut into case life so you have to take that into consideration. Depends on the quality of the brass as well as the gun/chamber itself, most people I know recommend you use the same brass only in same gun.

depending on the quality of brass you start with you should get 20 or more if you anneal the shoulder and neck every 3rd time

I get over 10 when I full length size them but I never use winchester brass.

I posted this in 2015.

303 british case life (my experiments)
there is alot of variables in case life in my experience and I did a test
I took 10 of each case from what I had and loaded and reloaded them and kept track of them.
The load was 38 grains of 4895 and a 150 FMJ pulled from 7.62x54r
cases were annealed and trimmed every 5 loads
cases listed from worst to best
remington all gone by 4 loads for head seperation
winchester all gone by 5 loads for head seperation
ppu/nny all 10 made it to 9 loads but were all gone by 12 for neck splits
HXP 8 made it to 8 loads by 15 I had 2 left I still have 1 left thats loaded for the 20th time
Iraq (surplus converted to boxer by me) lost one to a reloading mistake but the remaining nine made it to 12 then by 17 I had 2 left. those 2 are loaded for go 20
RG1944 (surplus converted to boxer by me) all 10 made it to 10 then at 15 I had 6 left at 19 there was 5 . I have 3 left that are loaded for number 20
the brass was all full length resized and used in a different gun every time around.

other notes
I boiled the Iraq and RG42 cases in water to get the salts out when I first got them.
All the cases get washed between reloads. They get sized then get a bath in hot water and a bit of yellow ajax then rinsed and dried.
I anneal the top 1/3 of the case
Trim length is 2.22"
they get fired from 7 different guns
All cases get crimped with the lee factory crimp die.

update:and then there was 3
I have only 3 cases left now one HXP 69, one RG 1942 and one Iraq 1909 (1959).
They have made it to 22

these cases were fired from SMLE's, No4's, a bren and a vickers
the point is if you start out with good brass you will go further than if you start out with crap brass

if you neck size you will have to bump the shoulder every 5+or- reloads depending on how hot you load them

Too many variables for accurate prediction -

• Brass composition
• Brass hardness
• Brass thickness
• Chamber pressure
• Chamber finish
• Presence of lubricant on case or in chamber

Here's one example -


http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...7/afk9ia-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by mausernut

Or am I worrying too much?

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We get this all the time here and it always comes out the same. There's nothing you can do to keep them from separating, you only prolong it. I shoot them until they break and have a stuck case tool with me. They go scrap then. Examine them before loading...just have fun and use them until they break. Stop worrying.

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Too many variables for accurate prediction -

• Brass composition
• Brass hardness
• Brass thickness
• Chamber pressure
• Chamber finish
• Presence of lubricant on case or in chamber

Here's one example -


http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...7/afk9ia-1.jpg

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what you are doing there is a very dangerous practice. what you are doing is forcing all the chamber pressure to become bolt thrust. The case under pressure is suppose to stick to the chamber walls but by adding lube to prevent this from happening you are basically firing a proof round every time as the locking lugs are taking all the weight.
Chambers should be clean and dry and cases should be clean and dry.

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Originally Posted by Mr E

you are basically firing a proof round every time

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Originally Posted by Mr E

a very dangerous practice.

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I agree sir...

Horsefeathers, gentlemen. The Lee-Enfield is, of course, designed with plenty of strength for wet/greasy/oily cases or chambers. You are victims of a widespread myth purporting that the L-E action relies on the strength of the thin case wall to hold it together. Think about it! Better yet, try it, see what happens, and report your results. I have - no harm done to shooter or rifle.

If you accept the myth, please be sure to keep your cases and chambers clean and dry. You have nothing to lose but a bit of case longevity and you may gain some accuracy - eliminating a variable introduced by inconsistent lubrication.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Horsefeathers, gentlemen. The Lee-Enfield is, of course, designed with plenty of strength for wet/greasy/oily cases or chambers. You are victims of a widespread myth purporting that the L-E action relies on the strength of the thin case wall to hold it together. Think about it! Better yet, try it and see. I have - no harm done to shooter or rifle.

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some reading for you

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=496822

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...hamber-is-bad/



I am just putting it out there so people can be well informed and make their own decision.

Thanks for the info. I am going to use that case some more as the movement on the gauge was only a couple of thousandths, but it will be marked so I can keep an eye on it.
As all of my guns will mostly be used for hunting 5 to 7 reloads from them will be fine. Most of the time my deer hunting involves 1 shot. I do do some target shooting with them but until I retire I won't have time to shoot enough ( as this is my stress relief it is frustrating. Wanted to shoot last night but my MS caught up with me and my energy went to 0.) One of these days I am going to get to shoot until i have a recoil headache (only managed this twice). Life sucks because it keeps getting in the road.

As to brass lasting in other guns I have found Federal to be the worst for coming apart at the web. I usually shy away from it. Have had really good luck in other guns with Winchester. Not even sure how many loads I have for my 6.5 x 55 and my 30-06 Mexican Mauser and it is still fine.

I usually try to use different makes of brass for each gun to make it easier to keep them separate. Really like to start with new brass for each gun but I find the selection in local gun stores is abysmal. Hate buying factory ammunition just to get brass. Trying to empty my ammo cabinet of all factory ammo so I have room for my reloads.

Thanks
Cecil

Unfortunately, I can not give a good reference but here is a procedure I have read about that may solve your longevity problem.

1. Put an "O" ring around the case just above the rim for the first firing. This makes sure that there is no gap between the bolt head and case; therefore, no stretching. The shoulder moves up.
2. Segregate used cases by rifle. Removes problems with different head spaces and chamber depth from the equation.
3. Then neck size. These custom made cases, for the rifle, now effectively head space on the shoulder like rimless cases and last a long time.

I was going to try this, but then started firing my SMLE's less frequently.

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Originally Posted by mausernut

Really like to start with new brass for each gun but I find the selection in local gun stores is abysmal.

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You'd have never thought we'd run out of ball .303 would you, here in Canada? Specially where you are...35 years back there was so much.

Now 70 years later Jim its collectible and not shoot-able well some may do the latter me I collect them WWII Mk VII ammo that is.

I go through so much 303 that is amost a full time job finding it or finding components to make it. Gone are the days when I was able to buy it by the pallet for 3c a round when the GOV was dumping it.

Actually a friend of mine called me last year asking me if I wanted a bunch of 303 ammo. gave me two boxes of Imperial Gevelot ammo a partial box of Dominion Arms and 10 charger clips loaded with 1943 and 44 ball cartridges.

Attachment 86570Attachment 86571Attachment 86572

And a student of mine gave me a box of ammo

Attachment 86573

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Originally Posted by Mr E

I was able to buy it by the pallet for 3c a round

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Now you'd take a boxcar full...and still go short.

On a side note, when I'm teaching a course I like to show the picture of the 30-06 ammo and ask the people who think they know lots about guns what ammo it is. Most of them have no idea what it is. The odd person can work it out from what is on the box.

I'm with Para on this one. The weakest part of the rifle is the brass case. They were never intended to be reused, that they can be is amazing. How about the re-chambered M1893, and M1895 Mauser actions for the 7.62x51 NATO. They set the lugs back without any lube in the chambers. Many types of weapons use a lubricated cartridge. The Pederson 276 used a dry wax. The Oerlikon 20 mm cannon and Bofors 40 mm actually inject oil into the chambers. Yes they are automatic weapons but it is still lubrication. Here is a similar way to decrease the brass stretch, a long read but interesting:

Rifle Chamber Finish Friction Effects on Bolt Load and Case Head Thinning Calculations done with LS-DYNA

Dave

The last (small) lot of "surplus" .303 I was given turned out to be WW2 Japanese MG ammo in fairly good condition; not likely to shoot that lot off.

I recall the days of buying post WW2 FN .303 ball and tracer, ("pour Bren"), in case lots from the local "disposals" / "surplus" shop; mind you that was back in the early / mid 1970s...... I still have a few dozen cases here and some suitable RWS primers.

I do so miss the cheap Winchester MkVIIIz headstamped WCC 81. I was told by an Olin rep that was actually contract run of 8 million rounds for South Africa but before it was delivered, they got stung by the embargo. The next best stuff was Greek, headstamped HXP. Prvi Partizan makes good ammo, but their FMJ, like the Greek, does NOT tumble on impact like the old MkVII ball. The tendency of British Commonwealth primers to hangfire when they get a bit of age has always mystified me. I have a lot of mid- Fifties Radway Green in Vickers belts and despite the sealed tins a good bit of it is click...BOOM. Cal. 30 M2 ball headstamped DEN 43 goes off like it was made last week, corrosive primers nothwithstnding.

Are you sure the WCC 81 isn't Mk.7z? It's usually Mk.8z that will keyhole if the throat erosion in the barrel is well cut with cordite Mk.7. The best surplus I've ever had was FNM 71 Portuguese MK.7z. We tested it all for accuracy and nothing else held a candle to it. I bought 10,000 rounds from Century Arms when they had it. I still use it for test firing rifles here.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Are you sure the WCC 81 isn't Mk.7z? It's usually Mk.8z that will keyhole if the throat erosion in the barrel is well cut with cordite Mk.7. The best surplus I've ever had was FNM 71 Portuguese MK.7z. We tested it all for accuracy and nothing else held a candle to it. I bought 10,000 rounds from Century Arms when they had it. I still use it for test firing rifles here.

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You maybe right, but I seem to remember the bullet weight as 180 grain, it was all fired long ago. A couple of the Vickers barrels I have are stamped with a "7." The erosion and subsequent inaccuracy problems you mentioned were pretty well documented. I never came cross the FNM ammo when it was available, sounds like missed an opportunity, although I may not have had the sense to keep some round as reference ammo. I have a case of South African MkVIIz left, but the WCC and HXP are long gone. The mid fifties Radway Green and assorted POF are all the surplus blasting ammo left. For more serious target shooting, I do like reloading. the Hornady 174 grain bullet and Reloder 15.

Both Mk.7/7z, (flat base), and Mk.8z, (boat tail), have 174 grain projectiles. The Mk.8z was for use in the Vickers MMG. I still have a .50 cal can full of the WCC 81. I just looked and the headstamp doesn't show Mk.7z or Mk.8z. I think it's Mk.7z as Winchester has been set up to produce it since WWII. I found a couple of boxes of '43 dated at the SAR East show in Pennsylvania in June 2015. It's great stuff with great brass for reloading too. I think Winchester is missing the boat by not producing it again for the civilian market at a reasonable price. The Remington-UMC Mk.7z is still available but they've priced it so high that most won't buy it. They opt for S&B or PPU Czech and Serbian made Mk.8z and it won't perform well in some rifles with throat erosion caused by cordite.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

. The Remington-UMC Mk.7z is still available but they've priced it so high that most won't buy it. They opt for S&B or PPU Czech and Serbian made Mk.8z and it won't perform well in some rifles with throat erosion caused by cordite.

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Brian, I managed to pick up some Remington 174grn FMJ cartridges (green & white boxes) last year in an auction over here. Out of curiosity, I pulled a bullet to have a look and it bore a striking resemblance (that is to say, "identical") to the 174grn PPU bullets I usually reload with. Are Remington buying in components from PPU?

Are the Remington-UMC cartridges sporting Mk.8 spec boat tails now? As far as I know, Winchester and Remington produced a Mk.7 equivalent projectile for their ammo but maybe that's changed. Winchester doesn't even have an offering anymore. It wouldn't surprise me that they are outsourcing components. To be honest, I've lost a lot of respect for Remington since they were bought out by Freedom Group several years ago. It would seem that the quality control on their firearms and ammo has deteriorated along with the change in ownership/management. I sincerely hope they rectify the problems.

The American ammo manufacturers are missing a great opportunity to produce correct 174 grain, Mk.7z specification ammunition at a reasonable price. We know they can do it. The demand is there too but it MUST be reasonably priced.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The Mk.8z was for use in the Vickers MMG.

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Most of the .303 I shoot is in the Vickers. It came with one barrel already stamped with a "7." Its barrels are considerably easier to change to suit the bullet than a rifle's.

Both my Enfields, the No.1 Mk III* and the No. 4 Mk I/2 are well-worn and boat tail bullets are a waste of time. It does not matter what brand or who loaded the ammunition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The American ammo manufacturers are missing a great opportunity to produce correct 174 grain, Mk.7z specification ammunition at a reasonable price. We know they can do it. The demand is there too but it MUST be reasonably priced.

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Some time ago there was a vendor selling pulled .303 bullets at Knob Creek. Based on the color, I assumed they were cupro-nickel jacketed salvage from POF .303 that was more click than boom. I do not know if they were a true Mk VII bullet as I never sectioned one to see. The last I saw with aluminum in the tip was South African.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7/09/375-1.jpg

I believe that a more conventional design FMJ was loaded in the long gone WCC 81 and HXP 86.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7/09/372-1.jpg

Club match shooters with their old military rifles would probably like a flat based .312 dia. version Hornady's 174 FMJ. Are there enough buyers to make it worth tooling up such a bullet?

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Originally Posted by old tanker

Are there enough buyers to make it worth tooling up such a bullet?

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I'd say so...just here alone.

I went around with Sierra Bullets in 2011-12 trying to get them to produce a FB Mk.7 equivalent and even supplied them pulled Mk.7 projectiles from Canadian and British cartridges for study. When the 2013 nonsense occurred, the project was shelved. They told me they'd resurrect it but I'd have to cough up the cash for a million projectiles before they'd even think about it!

I still prefer the .311 180 grain Pro-Hunter as my projectile of choice for .303 British reloads.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

the .311 180 grain Pro-Hunter

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Our problem is getting anything actually here. Our people have to buy from certain distributors, Brian knows about this sort of malarky all to well I'm sure. They want paid in full right away and bills of $75,000 can occur without trouble. They don't get some of this stuff and cost counts. Best we can get is cast off or pulled bullets from Yugo or Russia I guess. They'd be 7.62x54 bullets too...not these beautiful FMJ .303.