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I have five rounds of FA (Frankfort Arsenal) 33 (1933) cartridges for the M1903 rifle and am seeking information as to their rarity as these are the only examples I've had. The casing is of the standard brass M1 '06 configuration but in place of a bullet, the cartridges are loaded with two 42 gr. round lead balls, probably for guard use. Any info would be appreciated.
I have in my collection the early guard loadings with the rings around the case for identification which was later changed to flutes around the case neck. Also have
the Model 1919 Gallery Practice load with a single 140 gr lead bullet which was still in use around defense plants during WW2 despite the lead bullet loading.
Going back in time, the US Army did test a multi ball loading in the 45 Govt revolver cartridge, the 45-70 had guard loadings of multi lead balls up to the WW1 period.
Also have the 30-40 Krag muti ball loading with lead balls.
I think a multi lead ball loading for the 30-06 is not at all common and always the chance that it was made-up by someone other than the military
US military did not load a rb multiball ctg on 30-06 case according to "History of US Military Small Arms Ammo" HWS the bible on US military ammo.
Sounds like a civvie hand load.
Brophy both illustrates, and gives a description of the round that is identical to mine on page 312. I wouldn't waste anyone's time on something other than a factory load. I believe the cartridge is quite scarce but he doesn't go into much detail other than cautioning to not load this type of cartridge in the magazine. Thought I'd had about every type of round for the Springfield but this is a first. Perhaps someone has other examples and some additional background data. Thanks!
Ctg shown on pg 312 is a 30-03 not 06. HWS says this 30-03 load was discontinued in Dec 1904. Different ctg and era. I stand by my remark.
I'm just wondering if we can see them? I know I've loaded round ball into cartridges too...love to see these.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcorps
The cartridge must have also been made in the '06 case length but given the 1933 headstamp, that's obvious. Wish it were a .30-03. Still seeking reliable information.
Sent pix. During my enlisted service we had a double round for the M14 with two projectiles. These were supposed to have been issued but I never came across them although I have met some soldiers who did.
During the early 1960's, brig chasers supervising hard labor prisoners were armed with Model '97 Winchesters with 00 shot and these were about the only equivalent I came across. My guess is that these cartridges served a similar purpose.
The green tip (4th from left) was the M198 that used two (approx.) 84 gr bullets in an effort to double the volume of fire in the M14 rifle. Some combat service but soon gone from service.
Interesting also is the 5th cartridge with the white tip, called low recoil for use in the M14 for small stature people. They took one of the 84 gr bullets from the green tip M198 and used it in the low recoil cartridge. A special modified M14 stock was developed tooAttachment 86707
Here's the pics of the lead ball cartridges...
Thanks, Jim. It must be lens distortion that makes the cartridge bases appear to be a different size. In reality, the dimensions are identical and the overall length of the mystery cartridges is 2 1/2." During the 1930's both the US and England experimented with multiball cartridges and did so again in the 1950's. I suspect that these are either experimental or very limited production rounds from Frankford Arsenal. At any rate, these appear to be an updated version of the rounds briefly discussed by Brophy.
Looks like one is closer to the lens, doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcorps
Consensus at Intenationl Ammunition Collectors is that they are handloads.
In Labetts two volume set on .303" and other British ammo and the HWS book I can find no mention of experimentation with multiball loads in the 30s.
Thank you for your opinion but that's nonsense.
I can back my "nonsense" with documentation. Please back up yours. Regards.
Although my technical knowledge level stepping into this type of discussion is basically non-existent, purely as a research and discovery tool, I would love to see documentation (or other evidence) from both sides ... :thup:Quote:
Originally Posted by green
Thanks folks... :cheers:
Regards,
Doug
The assertion was made that in the 1930s the US and Britain experimented with multiball cartridges. I disagree.
My documentation:
US "History of Modern US Military Small Arms Ammunition Vol I 1880-1939." Hackley, Woodin and Scranton. This is considered the authoritative source on US ammo.
Britain ".303 inch" and "British Small Arms Ammunition 1864-1938" Labett. Again the definitive works.
If documentation for the above assertion is available please provide it. I have been at this for 50+ years and keep learning.
Well, the OP is gone and I doubt he will return... So, here's what he was working with.
Quoting Brophy from the 1903 Springfield book, page 312, he states the Multiball Cartridge is loaded with 43 1/2 gr of powder and two round balls weighing 42 gr each. The balls are held in the case neck by a cannelure at the lower end and a crimp at the upper end. The cartridge must not be used in the magazine of the gun.
Brophy doesn't specify who loaded this ammo or when. He gives no indication of packaging. He includes a drawing of the cartridge with measurement. So there you go, it exists...
The ctg on pg 312 is a 30-03 not 30-06 loaded by Frankford Arsenal and discontinued in 1904. From "US Military etc" as listed above. This is a scarce ctg. No double ball 30-06 load is shown in the Brophy book.
No equivalent was loaded by the US govt for the 30-06 ctg.
I guess we'll have to measure the cartridges in the pic then...for length...
The primer pockets of the the Multiball look as though the crimp was removed vs the comparison cartridge. I would have thought that if they were official, Hatcher's notebook might have mentioned them in his chapter on the 30-06 cartridge. They certainly are interesting and if an experimental load a real piece of history. Is it possible they were loaded by a National Guard or Reserve arsenal for pest control or local security?
Dave