I've noticed that there a wide variety of sling colors. Is there a reason like Kacki for Europen theater, Green for the Asian theater, Blue Navy?
Just curious if anyone knows.
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I've noticed that there a wide variety of sling colors. Is there a reason like Kacki for Europen theater, Green for the Asian theater, Blue Navy?
Just curious if anyone knows.
Good question, Bill. Another Commonwealth idiosyncrasy. Like many, may possibly best left as is... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
Moving from firm to flimsy knowledge:
1. Post War, the RAF adopted blue slings. Parade slings were often Blancoed white, and some were made white. So we can put those those in a a box and be comfortable.
2. Throughout the war, the British '37 pattern webbing was modified as it evolved a little. Pre-1937, the Khaki colour was more or less a straw yellow colour for webbing. Post 1942(ish) the webbing seen on more and more European Theatre troops was more of a light olivey green colour. Recall that the Commonwealth troops were made from many nations and the blending of each nation's supplies entering the logistic chain meant there was always some minor variations. The Kiwis, for example, went to North Africa then stayed around to join in the Mediterranean campaign. They, like Australians, went to North Africa with pretty much pre-'37 webbing, mixed in with the newer '37 equipment. First to go had the all the new gear, but as reinforcements were sent, war stocks were accessed as local manufacture slowly built up new stuff. I'd suggest the Canadians and South Africans had a similar situaiton, though Canada was better equipped with an industrial base to produce more materiel, quicker. Indians would have relied upon a mixture of old Imperial stocks, British stores issues in theatre and their own replacements to a smaller extent.
3. As the war moved towards the East, the Indian/Asian campaign called for changes from the 'desert' yellow khaki to jungle green. As such, webbing and clothing was produced in green, not "yellow" khaki. This green colour was deeper than the olivey green seen on Commonwealth troops in the European Theatre. Strangely, often Commonwealth troops will call both yellow and green "khaki" (when it really isn't!) Case in point, when the Australians were withdrawn form North Africa to defend Australia from Japanese invasion via New Guinea (PNG now) the refitting and re kitting process saw Units bulk dyeing their yellow desert khaki uniforms and equipment to the jungle green colour. New clothing wasn't available and took time to manufacture. Many troops did move from refitting and retraining in Australia to New Guinea with 'yellow' khaki webbing.
4. If you are able to get your hands on a sample of, say, Canadian, US, British, South African, Australian, New Zealand and Indian made 'yellow' khaki slings, you'd notice that there would be slight to distinct colour differences between them. This is the result of war time contracting, shortage of raw material and the expediency of turning out fit-for-purpose equipment close to, but not always perfectly aligned with specifications (which, in fairness, were not always particularly accurate, definitive or lucid.)
Not definitive, and apology for long response, but hope that helps cast a little light on the realities of trying to keep many troops in various theatres supplies with limited resources.
Post war khaki slings in service with RTR, RE, RA and certain Infantry regiments were blackened with boot polish. This was by no means universal and sometimes only done in training and depot units.
After finishing boys service and getting posted to my first regiment the mix of slings was unbelievable, khaki, green, black, and I think we even had some of the new nylon? dark green slings circa 1970.
When the old*cotton slings were issued fresh from from Ordnance they were always impregnated with a sort of waxy like stuff that served as a preservative. As such, they didn't take blanco - or anything really - until they were scrubbed in soapy water. And that's when the rot set in........., literally in this case! They did come in various khaki colours apart from the obvious blue/grey for the RAF...., as if they were going to wear it in the sky for heavens sake...... I never saw an original white set of webbing but did see almost white, that had started its life as normal khaki and been bleached and scrubbed to within an inch of its life. Slings, gaiters and web belts like this were kept in the Q-Masters and dished out for ceremonial stuff as and when. The sort of ceremonial stuff us REME types avoided like the plague.
In real Army life during the days of 37 pattern webbing the COLOUR of the webbing issued at the unit/Corps/Regiment remained the same and was blancoed or blackened regardless of what colour was underneath/original. Some regiments such as the Cheshire Regt had a deep olive drab waxy type waterless brush-on blanco. Same as the Light Infantry, some had black. You kept that clean and polished stacked on top of your bedside locker in a set order. After a little while everyone(?) had obtained a second set of 'skeleton order' already made up for fit and size for Military Training days. For those who really live in the land of the fairies regarding webbing and colour etc etc ought to look at it and you'll find that even things like the large pack, small pack, cross straps etc etc where they're made from loads of bits sewn together, the individual pieces are different colours and weaves. The actual webbing spec would have a weave and colour spec but it must have been a fairly wide spec......, a bit like 'mild steel.....'
In the 60's, some of the units still had 'equipment repairers'. Our big workshops used to have them and they would repair all this kit where possible. All the buckles and fittings were available in the VAOS catalogue.
Nope....., webbing..... Doesn't row my boat either! One set stuck on the top of my locker and another set in the Armourers shop for range work
The common British webbing sling, was part of neither the P.08 nor P.37 gear. It was accepted into British service as the Sling, rifle, web, G.S., Mark I on January 31, 1901 under the List of Changes §10442. It is more commonly known as the "Sling, rifle, web, G.S. Mark I or Mark II" and it remained in use as an item of issue to front line British troops until at least the Gulf War of 1991.
For the story on construction variations including colors and hardware variations see
Weapons: Slings
The above comes to us from the website "Karkee Web", an excellent source of information on British and Empire equipment.
We were still issuing the plain colored ones to troops in training until the middle '70's. All well used of course...
As were ours BAR. Some had the date on the end buckles. Quite a versatile bit of kit too when used as a sort of toggle rope. But scrubbing, cleaning, drying and then re-blancoing this stuff left me with an aversion to it. As for collecting the stuff............. Well, as they say, some people collect man-hole covers!
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Canadian slings made in the 50s were olive colour to match the P1951 web gear.
No apology needed! this was great information and I really appreciate it. When, errr.. if I get the Savage No4 Mk1* I want, then I wanted to get a sling that would be historically correct. since it will not come with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 22SqnRAE
Peter, if you don't mind me asking, how was your range set set up and how did you use it? Aka if you used pouches did you use them for amunition or tools?
During basic training, RAF 1957, we were issued blue webbing. I don't think it had anything to do with the sky Peter. Just that it matched our pretty blue uniforms.
Just watch out for repro slings. I always think it's a shame to have a nice rifle that is all original and then throw a repro sling on it. Just my .02Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
I do as well, I wait until I can find one the real part, I hate the repo stuff. I've been looking at slings and you really have to read close on some of the postings. I've taken at times to ordering things in the UK when I can't find it here. I recently ordered some screws from Gunparts corp for my 1903 Springfield and when they came they were obviously repo. Went right in my junk drawer.Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceHMX
I would guess this one would be on the high side as cost goes the shipping kills it.
http://www.zeppy.io/product/gb/2/172398265614/
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ngwhiteo-2.jpg
How about this sling available in the States? https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...brass-fittings
That one looks correct, those guys are famous for their knockoffs though.
So I opened up the ad for the white sling and it directed me to Ebay UK. From there I saw items from Silverman's. I have bought from them in the past and was always satisfied. However, I read something on the ad that stated some of the slings need to be re blancoed. I know what blanco is but where would you find it? From a quick search seems it has not been made since the 80's. Interesting too that some of the Airborne units blancoed their slings maroon. Gil I take it this was for parade?
If you're buying Slings from Silvermans, specify that you would like a short one for a rifle. They seem to have Long (Bren?) and Short all under the same part number. I ordered 3 and recieved 2 short and 1 long. But they were all good condition as advertised.
White blanco (Indian production) can be purchased from What Price Glory. $2US for a broken block about 2 inches in diameter in a round plastic tub.Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceHMX
For the web gear I use while camping and at the range, I use Tarrago shoe cream. It's far easier to apply, adds a measure of waterproofing, doesn't wear off easily but can be scrubbed off. I use a colour mixture to match light khaki green.
The webbing we used for Military Training days and range work using '37 pattern stuff was known as SKELETON ORDER and was the belt, L and R pouches, cross-straps, water bottle and bayonet frog. Generally speaking, the military training staff weren't concerned about the blanco and brass just so long as it was clean. So we had a gash set used for that and a shiny clean and polished set on top of our bedside lockers. As Armourers we also had a 'range box'. That was usually a Bren mag box with the partition plate pulled out and our tools and a few spare parts would fit into that. For '44 pattern it was pretty much the same but 2x water bottles. '58 stuff the same but with the really useful poncho and poncho roll attached too. Kidney pouches......, depending but not usually for range work. Gill can best comment on the Infantry set-up.....
Was the Bren mag box normally fitted with a hasp and padlock when it was used as a "range box"? The reason that I ask is that I picked up one a couple of years ago that had been "modified" in this way, by fitting of a lock hasp, which I then un-modified and returned to original spec. I couldn't work out why the end handle was also removed but, fortunately I had a spare handle, so I replaced it. Luckily the mag devision strips/plates had not been removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I have these 2 Enfield slings which I believe to be genuine examples. The older one is WW1 vintage, believed to be marked 1915 on the webbing but 1916 on the brass ends, and it is about 2" longer than the other later example that is shown. The later one is post WW2 and is dated 1949 on the brass end but it is only on one end. The fist 3 pictures are the WW1 sling and the last 2 pics the later one.
Here's a little thing about these slings or anything that has the buckle attached by rivets, told to me by 'Jock' the textile repairer many years ago. When you rivet, you have to use a special pointed tool (called an AWL?) to spread the cotton weave. And when the weave has been spread, THEN you press the rivet through. Otherwise, if you punch the rived through a cut hole, the strength has gone because you have effectively cut the material. Then the brass or whatever material is pressed tightly down on a foot press and the rived punched over while the metal is clamped tight. Easy when you know how - AND have the tools!
White blancoed sling could be RN - didn't they use white slings when on parade with white gaiters, web belts etc (KGV,KGVI funerals etc)....?Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceHMX
As to getting blanco today, the typical wartime colours Nos 61, 64, 97 and KG3 are reproduced by Pegasus Militaria here in the UK. It's as close to the original as you can get.
http://www.pegasusmilitaria.com/products/
Thanks Peter, i never consider one of the standard webbing orders.
I visualized something 100% practical, pared down then built up with functional additions.
As an aside, did you normally test and tune longarms prone or off a bench?
Testing rifles etc etc. If you were on the test ranges, off the bench with sandbags or at a Base workshop (or large Field/Command workshop, the Enfield Layer) On the open field range, prone
Thanks for the link! Ended up picking used original, Sling, Savage Spike Bayonet, Scabbard, and Frog for $26.64 USD includes shipping from a private sale. I'll post pictures when they get here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
---------- Post added at 08:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------
WOW! These pictures are great! On the slings I have been looking at on-line I never saw mfg and date stamps on the brass. Should the originals always have them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
I don't think so but could someone confirm this, please?Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
It would be interesting to see some pictures of a Canadian manufactured Le-Enfield rifle sling, showing the markings, that is known to be the genuine article, please.
Some of the slings available on eBay that are said to "originals" somehow look a bit suspect to me but it can be difficult to tell with some of the reproduction webbing available now because the quality is relatively good.
It is occasionally seen but it is more the exception than the rule.
Here's two... Canadian No 4 MK1 SlingQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Thanks for that Jim.