1942 Lithgow No1 paint marking question

Picked this up a while back, after much searching I am still not sure what these paint markings mean. Rifle is a '42 Lithgow, was FTR'd in '52. Forend is in rough shape, lots of cracks/repairs, no marks on stock except SLZ51. it has a very light import mark right above the woodline on the receiver, its not the J. Jovino Co mark.

There is a green band on the buttstock, plus the two red circles in the pics. Headspace checks fine, previous owner fired it. I have put a few rounds through it, no odd looking signs on the brass and it actually shoots well, action is smooth, bore is VG, but due to the stock condition I wont fire it any more.

I have searched around quite a bit and assume it was a cadet rifle, green band means OK from what I have read. But not sure why the red dots are there.

Bumping this back up after over a year. Still have this rifle and was hoping someone would comment on the red dots and their meaning. Did a lot of searching and still have not found anything except for the green band.

Never seen it. A red band like the green band there on your rifle would indicate it was downgraded for drill, no live firing. But I’ve never seen the dots. Can’t help sorry.
Hope you get an answer though, it’s onteresting.

Strictly a guess, but it could possibly be cadet unit distinctive markings.

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Originally Posted by Paul S.

Strictly a guess, but it could possibly be cadet unit distinctive markings.

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The seller I bought it from didnt know, he guessed since the front sight and buttstock were loose thats why they red dots. But its hard to believe they would put permanent red marks for something easily fixable. Unless they had no armorers where the rifles were located.

I ended up putting a few extra pins in the stock and have used it in some vintage rifle matches locally and it turned out to be a decent shooter.

I can try asking my father - long shot but he was in the Cadets and the Cadets Rifle Team (In West Australia) He may have some insight - i do recall him telling once that they had no real armourer - that he was tasked with cleaning and doing simple repairs on his schools cadet rifles - No1Mk111's - only when they were un-serviceable did the army come and collect and repair and return.
But may take some time as i work away and dont see him for periods of time (and he's not a computer/email user)

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Originally Posted by brnom2

I can try asking my father - long shot but he was in the Cadets and the Cadets Rifle Team (In West Australia) He may have some insight - i do recall him telling once that they had no real armourer - that he was tasked with cleaning and doing simple repairs on his schools cadet rifles - No1Mk111's - only when they were un-serviceable did the army come and collect and repair and return.
But may take some time as i work away and dont see him for periods of time (and he's not a computer/email user)

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Not a problem on time, would be interesting to see if he has any knowledge. I have only seen one other Lithgow No1 like it at a gun show and it had the green band and the red dot on the front only. The seller had no idea what the red dot meant.

Appreciate the reply.

I was in the cadets at '70 - 73 at Perth Modern School our MkIII's had painted stripes around the the butts and the nose caps painted fully including the ear protectors we were issued for parade yellow and red painted ones there was also a number of unpainted ones they were for range use only they were never used on parade nor for instruction the Quarter Master was tasked with keeping them oiled/clean between range days at Swanbourne.

The GREEN band was the marking for NON SERVICE PATTERN firearms. Indicating their obsolescent status but safe for live firing. So far as I recall, rad marking were used to denote BRPC. Or to the uninitiated, BEYOND REPAIR, PROVISIONALLY CONDEMNED. That was when a higher authority was required to inspect and confirm its status

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The GREEN band was the marking for NON SERVICE PATTERN firearms. Indicating their obsolescent status but safe for live firing. So far as I recall, rad marking were used to denote BRPC. Or to the uninitiated, BEYOND REPAIR, PROVISIONALLY CONDEMNED. That was when a higher authority was required to inspect and confirm its status

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I have read about the three different color bands, but have never found anything on painted circles/dots. I assume that red = bad/dont fire but why not just paint a red band on it and be done with it instead of a green band and two red dots.

Correct Pete, When doing Preservation and Storage Inspections as per EMEI Weapons A 144-1, items found to be defective, damaged, corroded or missing parts outside the Scope of the RAAOC or Unit Repair system, were given a splash of red paint as opposed to stamping the butt and forwarded to a RAEME Base Repair Facility for Re-inspection , Classification and Repair if warranted.


Items found to be out of repair parameters were marked UR and set aside for an Inspection Officer/Board of Survey.

.................and of course white banded UK & Commonwealth weapons denoting deactivated and often seen with Cadet units at memorials.

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Originally Posted by kpj53

why not just paint a red band on it and be done with it instead of a green band and two red dots.

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Guess you'd have to pose that to the guy doing the painting.

The green band might have already existed on the rifle.

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Originally Posted by Homer

The green band might have already existed on the rifle.

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Thats possible, but if you have the red paint and the brush in your hand why not red paint over the green band if the rifle was not to be fired.

I have never read anywhere where any color paint dots are applied but plenty of info on the green/yellow/red bands.

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Originally Posted by kpj53

Thats possible, but if you have the red paint and the brush in your hand why not red paint over the green band if the rifle was not to be fired.

I have never read anywhere where any color paint dots are applied but plenty of info on the green/yellow/red bands.

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Remember this was at the end of the SMLE life at the hands of the cadets who didn't have the means to repair rifles and had limited means to signify problems at their end. There may only have been a screw missing hence the red dob.

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Originally Posted by kpj53

Thats possible, but if you have the red paint and the brush in your hand why not red paint over the green band if the rifle was not to be fired.

I have never read anywhere where any color paint dots are applied but plenty of info on the green/yellow/red bands.

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And you may never find any published information on the red dots, but two retired commonwealth armorers have responded to your thread. Id take note of the information,

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

Remember this was at the end of the SMLE life at the hands of the cadets who didn't have the means to repair rifles and had limited means to signify problems at their end. There may only have been a screw missing hence the red dob.

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When the rifle was imported the front sight was loose as well as the buttstock, so the seller assumed the red dots were there for that. Sounded plausible but was just trying to make sure. Mostly because if I sold it down the road I didnt want it to be an 'unsafe' rifle.

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Originally Posted by Homer

And you may never find any published information on the red dots, but two retired commonwealth armorers have responded to your thread. Id take note of the information,

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Trust me I always appreciate when Peter and the other retired armorers (and anyone else for that matter) take the time to type something out.

I'm just discussing, not disagreeing with anyone :)

The question that should be asked, is how a firearm with provisional major repair indicators, found it's way into the system without the marks being removed.

The firearm in question was found to be defective to the extent that it required backloading to a Base Repair Facility...….this means that the repair was beyond the scope of the RAEME attached to the Unit or Inspection Team that identified the fault.

If the repair was beyond the scope of the Base Workshop(highly unlikely) the firearm would be either classified UR, or if it was a receiver problem and replaceable, marked FR and sent to factory where it would have gone through an FTR program.

Once the firearm was repaired by Base Workshops, it would be returned to Unit, if forwarded to Factory, a replacement would be issued to the holding Unit to maintain their holdings.
All paint markings would be removed after either Base Repair or FTR, as the firearm would have been restored to as new condition.(this includes the Cadet paint band)

As this rifle was FTR'd it means that the downgrade to Cadet green was after the FTR date, the further downgrade and marking for Base Repair would have been from the Cadet Unit storage, or possibly about 1980 when the rifles were withdrawn from Cadet Units.


To have survived with the red paint intact is an indicator that the firearm was never repaired...….maybe sold as is with the JJCO purchases.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

The question that should be asked, is how a firearm with provisional major repair indicators, found it's way into the system without the marks being removed.

The firearm in question was found to be defective to the extent that it required backloading to a Base Repair Facility...….this means that the repair was beyond the scope of the RAEME attached to the Unit or Inspection Team that identified the fault.

If the repair was beyond the scope of the Base Workshop(highly unlikely) the firearm would be either classified UR, or if it was a receiver problem and replaceable, marked FR and sent to factory where it would have gone through an FTR program.

Once the firearm was repaired by Base Workshops, it would be returned to Unit, if forwarded to Factory, a replacement would be issued to the holding Unit to maintain their holdings.
All paint markings would be removed after either Base Repair or FTR, as the firearm would have been restored to as new condition.(this includes the Cadet paint band)

As this rifle was FTR'd it means that the downgrade to Cadet green was after the FTR date, the further downgrade and marking for Base Repair would have been from the Cadet Unit storage, or possibly about 1980 when the rifles were withdrawn from Cadet Units.


To have survived with the red paint intact is an indicator that the firearm was never repaired...….maybe sold as is with the JJCO purchases.

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Great post, thank you. This is not a JJCO, its an IA CO, one of the many importers from the 80s-90s. Most likely they came from the same batches that JJCO got them from. I have seen many rifles with the bands painted on the stocks of all colors floating around for years so who knows what stores they came from. Plus many with the yellow painted noses I still see at shows for sale. Of course you never know if that stock even belonged on that particular rifle, many dealers/buyers swapped stocks and removed the paint bands.

Not to drift off topic too much but here in the states on the M1903s they welded the barrel to the receiver, welded a rod in the chamber, welded the face of the bolt shut and welded the magazine cutoff so the bolt could not be removed when they were converted to drill rifles for VFW and ROTC parade/drill use. After all of that many were converted back to firing status when 1903 prices started soaring in the last few years. It is a fair amount of work to put one back in firing condition (and some safety concerns as well) but there are thousands of new WWII era barrels around, many bolts and stocks as well so you have to be careful when buying a 1903 these days. My son took some pictures of the rack of 1903 rifles they still use in JROTC (high school cadet sort of) for parade/drill and most are over 100 years old. Certainly getting their use out of those things :)

Thanks again everyone for the replies, I was going to restock this one but I think I'll just leave it as is. Not wartime history but interesting none the less.

"...previous owner fired it..." That proves nothing about anything. Except he didn't know what he was about. Only headspace gauges prove good headspace.
"...& Commonwealth weapons..." Absolutely not CF Cadets. No paint of any kind on the No. 4's or No. 7's I had on my MIU, long ago. Mind you, none of 'em were DP'd. No such thing as no weapons techs available either.
"...many were converted back to firing status..." None of those are considered safe to shoot either.

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Originally Posted by kpj53

Thanks again everyone for the replies, I was going to restock this one but I think I'll just leave it as is. Not wartime history but interesting none the less.

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1942 rifle certainly would have seen action, WW2, Korea. The cadets came later. If the Butt hasent been changed or sanded there will be many stampings showing the rifles history. The paint is only one chapter of its history.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

1942 rifle certainly would have seen action, WW2, Korea. The cadets came later. If the Butt hasent been changed or sanded there will be many stampings showing the rifles history. The paint is only one chapter of its history.

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I meant the paint markings didnt have any wartime history, but the cadet history is interesting too. Matter of fact every time people see the rifle the first thing they ask about is the paint markings, the red and green paint is really bright in daylight.

I'm sure the rifle has seen some action over its lifetime. Only markings the stock has is SLAZ 52 and the painted marks, many I have seen had all kinds of markings but this ones doesnt. I assume the wood was replaced when it was FTR'd or later down the road.

Replaced at FTR

FTR doesn't mean the wood will have been changed. If it was still serviceable, it would be refinmished, made off, dunked in hot linseed for 8 hours and re-used. The same as everything else. All gauged and re-used. Waste not, want not.

You find an Armourer with an old car and it'll always be repaired. When real armourers were about, we were masters of repair as opposed to replace.

Peter I understand that, however, of the rifles that were FTR’d at lithgow between 1950 and 1960 and stamped FTR on the receiver, I’ve nrver come across one that didn’t have new forend and handguards at that time. Butts are a mix of new and used. I haven’t seen them all and I’m sure there are exceptions, but I’d suggest the vast majority had all front wood replaced.

Homer,

My 1927 Lithgow was FTR'd in 1954.

New barrel made in 1953.
Foreend and upper handguard are Slazenger 1952 (Slaz '52)
Lower or rear handguard is Slaz '42.

Buttstock Slaz '52....so Nearly all new wood.

It too bears paint;
A white '52 on the buttstock, and a white "53 on the foreend just below the swivel mount.

One of a lot sold off in Canada, about 1988 -90.

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Originally Posted by Richard Hare

One of a lot sold off in Canada, about 1988 -90.

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I remember those coming in...

Peter.. will know, listen to what he says!!!!. S

Just a guess, but I think the dots were for local indication that the rifle was awaiting repair, and wasn't to be issued for use. While it was waiting to be collected by the armourers and assessed/repaired, the rifle was withdrawn and it went to the disposal sales "as is".
I recon that if it had had the repairs done and come back to the unit, they would have removed the dots and put it back in use.