Spitfire Vs Me 109....

Don't get me wrong I haven't started to get into planes etc, but when scrolling throughout the many youtube films and clips etc you can get lost at times, being on permanent nightshift does take its toll at times as its hard to get back into a normal pattern if you don't get back to normal the first day it can take about 3 days.......so being wide awake at 0300 in the mornings when there is not much on the TV or no book to read youtube is a handy encyclopaedia.

As there was talk on a recent thread regarding the lost plans for the Mosquito, I had my doubts there was many Airworthy Merlins left, looking for info etc on the Merlin got side tracked with this, it shows a guy who rebuilt a Merlin and watch out for the bloke firing the Browning......... some will recognise him, he has wrote a few books.

Battle of Britain: Spitfire vs ME109 - YouTube

That problem you have with night shift it interferes with the bodies Circadian rhythm which is programmed into us that we sleep at night and play in the day going on permanent night faff's this around and throws you out of whack so
to speak.
I bet the first week of your holidays your falling asleep during the day and bouncing off the walls at 02:00 in the morning......

The chap " rat- a- tat- tating" with the browning does look familiar Geoff ...

Looks like Peters having far too much fun..

Hope you get some proper sleep tonight mate

There’s a wonderful scene in the 1969 film Battle of Britain, in which Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring asks one of his Luftwaffe officers what he needs to defeat the RAF, in preparation for Operation Sealion – the invasion of Britain. (See footage below always makes me chuckle)

The officer brazenly replies “Give me a Squadron of Spitfires!” which infuriates Göring. Hitler’s second in command turns on his heel and walks away without saying a word. The scene captures the grudging admiration many German pilots had for this deadly fighter.

Squadrons of Spitfires (and Hurricanes, the true workhorses) would shoot down hundreds of Luftwaffe bombers and fighters in the autumn of 1940, thwarting the planned invasion and giving the British time to rearm after the disaster at Dunkirk. As Churchill so memorably put it, “Never in the field of human conflict have so many owed so much to so few.”

The plane has an almost iconic status for the British. Even today Spitfires are spoken of in reverential tones. They are lovingly preserved at the Imperial War Museum and the RAF Museum. At Bentley Priory at Stanmore there is even a stained glass window commemorating the Spitfire’s role in winning the Battle of Britain. And perhaps more prosaically, Spitfire beer is “downed all over Britain, just like the Luftwaffe.” The British love the Spitfire.

Battle of Britain - - YouTube

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...itp93061-1.jpg

Our local Spit MK.IX:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t960_640-1.jpg

And Hurricane:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...76898849-1.jpg

And Messerschmitt BF109G:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sdefault-2.jpg
Experienced pilots have described the G variant as posing a marked, continual, underlying menace to the pilot at all times. Operational WWII 109G bases typically had a charred pile of metal 3/4 of the way down the strip on the left. Throttle, stick, and rudder discipline were crucial. Being angled outwards, the wheels tended to try to dig in. Given the prop torque the plane would yaw 10' to port when the tail came up and the tail's surface area wasn't large enough to correct it. They say the only answer is to give the plane its head and let it take off in the new direction. An attempt to correct it would be rewarded with a high speed ground roll, wing tuck, and crash.

Bob

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

As there was talk on a recent thread regarding the lost plans for the Mosquito, I had my doubts there was many Airworthy Merlins left, looking for info etc on the Merlin got side tracked with this

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There are still hundreds of airworthy Merlins (and sister built Packard versions) around the world.

And the plans for the Mosquito were never lost.

I can understand Willy Messerschmidt's keeping the oleo legs on the fuselage for strength so the impact is taken by a strong section and not by the wings, how hard it would have been to alter the wing to change it to the config like the FW-190 is baffling given how good the Germans were at building things.

As far as the negative G getaway by the 109's to quickly counter this whilst the boffins got to work on the problem with the Spitfires carby cutting out the pilots devised a stop gap measure to get onto the tail of the 109 as it dove away.
And that was to roll the Spit onto its back pull hard on the stick and dive on the 109 inverted first then either rolling out or continuing the dive in the same attitude it became a nasty shock to some of the Luftwaffe pilots to find as they bunted to scoot away the Spit was still on their tail.
Cannot remember if it was in either a book by Tuck, Bader or Rob Doe I have but it is there and shoot the 109's down they did of course the new carby came out and that was that as well as up gunning the Spit with heavier 50 cals and 20mm or a mix of both.

From my library here is a little book every enthusiast should have do not let the size fool you its pretty packed with technical information on the Spitfire.

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

There are still hundreds of airworthy Merlins (and sister built Packard versions) around the world.

And the plans for the Mosquito were never lost.

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I think I would be right in saying that the amount of airworthy Merlins is actually going up as a steady flow of Spitfire, Hurricane and Mustang rebuilds take to the air.

In fact there are more Spitfires and Hurricanes (don't know about Mustangs) airworthy today than there where 40 years ago.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I think I would be right in saying that the amount of airworthy Merlins is actually going up as a steady flow of Spitfire, Hurricane and Mustang rebuilds take to the air. In fact there are more Spitfires and Hurricanes (don't know about Mustangs) airworthy today than there where 40 years ago.

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And to think it all got started with the Battle of Britain Film and Spitfire Films Ltd. resurrecting as many gate guards as they could get their hands on. I just wish there had been more Hurricanes around to salvage.

Bob

Spare a thought for the HE-111 they tried to find around the world in flying condition I think they too came from Spain all 3 of them!

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Spare a thought for the HE-111 they tried to find around the world in flying condition I think they too came from Spain all 3 of them!

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You mean all 32 of them....... ;)

I couldn't help myself...

Attachment 86836

Well, you know, you've got to start somewhere. That was their MINI, a reaction to the Suez Crisis.

Bob

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I can understand Willy Messerschmidt's keeping the oleo legs on the fuselage for strength so the impact is taken by a strong section and not by the wings, how hard it would have been to alter the wing to change it to the config like the FW-190 is baffling given how good the Germans were at building things.

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That was a Willy Messerschmitt demand - he wouldn't allow the wings to get junked up with bulges for canon or outboard landing gear mounts.

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As far as the negative G getaway by the 109's to quickly counter this whilst the boffins got to work on the problem with the Spitfires carby cutting out the pilots devised a stop gap measure to get onto the tail of the 109 as it dove away. And that was to roll the Spit onto its back pull hard on the stick and dive on the 109 inverted first then either rolling out or continuing the dive in the same attitude it became a nasty shock to some of the Luftwaffe pilots to find as they bunted to scoot away the Spit was still on their tail.

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Ah, there was a stop-gap issued during the Battle of Britain nicknamed "Miss Shilling's Orifice" that allowed the negative-G maneuver in the Brit planes. They went around to all the stations one weekend and installed them. Nasty shock that was.

Bob

VS ME 262
Messerschmitt Me 262 - First Flight Over Berlin after 61 Years, Historical Footage! - YouTube
Can you imagine seeing one of these in battle for the first time?

Bob I am not going to ask how they got the name nor how they figured it would work as it conjures up ones imagination of the debonair fighter pilot in all sorts of maneuvers under the bed sheets with a buxom lass.......

I regards to the ME-262 the Red Tails came up with a plan of when the jets were sighted to form up in an extended line with their P-51's and all open fire (when in range) at the same time so the attacking jets had to fly through a wall of fifty rounds lets face it the gun turrets on the B-17 could not track the jets they were that fast and the P-51 were totally outclassed.
The only way they got Nowotony was when he was landing as the jet engines of the day took allot to spool up, it was not like he could hit the afterburners and go vertical make no mistake if H*tler had not dabbled for a revenge weapon the jet would have been deployed a full year earlier and given its 4 x 30mm cannons would have decimated the fortresses.
On they History Channels Wings of the Luftwaffe they have a good burst on the 262 it was mile ahead for the day being compartmentalized so a full fuselage could be changed quickly, 20 minutes to change an engine out/in the gun package was one unit so could be changed out, the Achilles heel of the aircraft on the ground was the weak nose wheel assy they needed a special set up to tow them around with the Kettenkrad.

I can't help but notice the similarity of the 262s fuselage profile to that of a great white shark.

Does conjure that image eh HOH

The Browning we used on that shoot was a Canadian modified 7.62mm version. Not the best and it would stop after every 10 rounds or so. It just didn't have enough 'whoomph' to reliably operate the system. Unlike the good old M1919's that would eat its way through belt after belt without a thought!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

a Canadian modified 7.62mm version. Not the best and it would stop after every 10 rounds or so.

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That wasn't unusual either...too bad too. Maybe we should have just bought Mag 58s...

We've discussed the 762 Brownings before BAR. Not good. But some people managed to get them right. But the L7 was the way to go. We call it 'The General'

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The Browning we used on that shoot was a Canadian modified 7.62mm version. Not the best and it would stop after every 10 rounds or so. It just didn't have enough 'whoomph' to reliably operate the system. Unlike the good old M1919's that would eat its way through belt after belt without a thought!

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Was the cannon an original ? and were you behind the trigger on that ?

A short operational life ~ there was an instance a brand new Spitfires operational life was @15 minutes it had only just joined the squadron was taken up on a scramble as the Germans attacked the base received 3 explosive cannon round hits (great rents in the skin) walking up the port side fuselage and finishing just near the radio hatch when the plane was landed it broke its back as you can see where the skin crinkled just behind the aerial mast Scrapped.
The pilot received wounds to the back of his legs and feet no information whether he survived the war.

Yes, I did the cannon too but it was set up i the trail by one of the gun fitters

I went to my books and found the plane ~ I erred on its operational life it was actually 25 minutes but you can see by the cannon hits with explosive shell just what damage could be inflicted by a 109 cannon I also see one may have connected the canopy but this could have been broken by over pressure travelling up the fuselage.
Also a picture of the pilot Urie with his injured feet, they were so young and given a mighty task to perform.
Source ~ Spitfire The Complete Fighting History By Alfred Price

Smiling because he has some light duty and doesn't fly for a few days...

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I went to my books and found the plane ~ I erred on its operational life it was actually 25 minutes but you can see by the cannon hits with explosive shell just what damage could be inflicted by a 109 cannon I also see one may have connected the canopy but this could have been broken by over pressure travelling up the fuselage.
Also a picture of the pilot Urie with his injured feet, they were so young and given a mighty task to perform.
Source ~ Spitfire The Complete Fighting History By Alfred Price

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My God Cinders, he was incredibly lucky to get her home and landed without the tail shearing off, you can't imagine what those young men went through...