Spotted this at a gunshow tonight. Was unaware of these.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9b3305_o-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5b2cdf_o-1.jpg
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Spotted this at a gunshow tonight. Was unaware of these.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9b3305_o-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5b2cdf_o-1.jpg
Interesting find thanks for the share did you happen to buy it !
They are very interesting pieces indeed. Note the strengthener added to the action body.
A fascinating piece of Enfield history
Neat piece. Not sure I'd be believing it though. I'd need hard confirmation before paying more than scrap prices for it.
It certainly conforms to the Turkish rebuild spec Jim. I wonder if it has any Turkish Arsenal markings on it?
I have seen one of these and can't get my head around it. Surely, if they'd captured sufficient quantities to make it worth converting them, then they'd have captured even greater quantities of .303 Ammo to suit.......
Be nice to see whats on the butt disc if it still retained any markings of its previous users.
Yes, it IS completely redone, I must admit. Doesn't look like something we'd have cobbled together in days gone by. But that doesn't convince me... As Peter states, ammo...the Germans had scads of stuff at the end for the Volksturm to march out to defend Berlin and they had all the ammo to accompany. Wonder what happened here...Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Ammo and guns BAR. My daughters godparents father was one of the 40.000 captured at Dunkirk and was in a segregated 'Offitzierlager'. One day a newly cleaned machine gun and ammo was being hauled up to the main gate watchtower by ropes when one of the magazine boxes crashed down onto the gun being lifted up, sending it to the floor, sending magazines and loose ammo flying everywhere. Amid the jeers and hoots of laughter he ambled over to add to the mocking chorus only to see that it was a British Bren laying broken on the ground together with magazines full of British .303" ammunition. Ideal for a back-water POW camp. There is also photographic evidence showing Brens doubled up in AA positions at the submarine pens in France. The Japanese captured so many Brens and .303 ammo that they issued them to their Infantry together with virtual direct Japanese copy of the Inf Trg pamphlet
I've wanted one of these 8mm conversions since first reading about them in the big Skennerton book a few years ago. I would jump at one for the price shown but I'll likely never see one for sale up here. One can only assume that the Turks saw that side of the body failing when they first attempted the conversion and welded on the piece. It would be interesting to see if they did anything else. As much as I'd like to have one I wouldn't shoot it if I did!
Ridolpho
I remember some vender had a few Long Lee Enfields (with charger guide) for sale in the Shotgun News about twenty five years ago, they had been captured by the Turks and converted to 7,65 Mauser
according to the ad. I thought about buying one but they were is such poor condition that I passed on them. Never seen them list again.
The Turks also converted some of their Martini Henry rifles to 7,65 mm around 1909, they used some type of stirrup or brace attached to the rear of the action
The seller's tag is a little strange, this was not done for WW2, Turkey did not participate in the Second World War. The conversions were done either during WW1 or shortly thereafter. They do exist but are far from common, they came in with all of the Turkish imports 15 or so years ago. Check Parallax Bill's Forum or Gunboards, DocAV is the resident expert on Turkish firearms.
I wonder if the welded-on-piece to the right of the receiver made their ejections weaker.
My knowledge on these was they were done in the 1930s along with all the other conversions the Turks were doing in that time period.
Before the mid 30s, the Turks were using two main cartridges, 7.65 Mauser and 8mm Mauser. They were also using a variety of Mausers and other firearms (1890s, 1893s, 1903s, Gewehr 98s, Commission 88/05 rifles, etc.). In the 30s after things had finally calmed down enough (remember they became a republic, fought several wars such as WWI and the Turkish War for Independence) they decided to standardize on one cartridge 8mm Mauser simply due to the amount of 8mm Mauser rifles (8mm Mauser rifles were by far the largest amount of standard arms they had).
This lead to many different patterns of rifles, and they converted many into 8mm Mauser. For example they did expensive conversions such as the Gewehr 88/05/35 I just bought, as well as odder ones such as the Lee Enfield conversion pictured above. They also didn't capture a large quantity of ammo, many of the rifles they captured were left behind when retreating Drip (or ) rifle | The Australian War Memorial .
Definitely a interesting conversion and something I one day want to own. It is also very interesting considering the Patrone 'S' ammo used by the Turks is significantly faster than .303 British (being a roughly 150grn bullet at 2900ft/sec!).
I assume the reason the Turks strengthened the action body due to concern about the 8mm stretching.
No, I didn't buy it. It was an unknown entity to me. Could have been something Bubba cobbled together in his garage for all I knew. 7.9x57 seems kind of hot for an Enfield action. I have two Enfield rifles, both in .303. I'll stick with those. Although I wouldn't mind acquiring a Pattern 14 to add to the collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
7.65 conversions make a lot of sense: essentially the same bore / groove spec, just set the barrel back a turn or two and ream out the new chamber.
8 x 57 is a bigger ask, though, the Lee-Enfield is just long enough to accommodate it. it was easily long enough and tough enough for building a LOT of 7 x 57 sporters on them in the early 20th century.
IF the conversions were to be exclusively for the standard "light" (154gn), bullet loading, a bit of creative free-boring would have taken a bit of the sting out of the pressure curve. Stuffing sS, (197gn @2500fps), loads, meant for long-range machine-gunning through one of these could be a bit TOO exciting.
As for "welding" that reinforcing rail on the RHS:
ALL SMLE actions (and bolts, bolt-heads, etc), are made from "malleable cast iron" of one recipe or other. Chemically this is not far removed from mild steel; no fancy alloying metals allowed. If your SMLE bolt-head has a letter "M" stamped on it, it means it was made from MILD STEEL, and surface hardened. Mild steel and similar alloys weld and re-heat-treat, (surface harden), fairly well.
In an interesting twist, involving an old enemy of the Turks, Australia did something similar, but in the early 1950's.
With the advent of the 7.62 NATO round, it was decided to look at conversion of existing No1 Mk 111(*) rifles to use it as a "reserve" option. So, somebody at Lithgow grabbed one of the No6 Oz carbines and got to work. The "improved" model had to accept "FAL" magazine (these were EARLY days, remember), so the body was "adjusted" by creative black-smithing, to do just that. Whilst it held up with the available early ball ammo, the oiled proof rounds "proved" a little too much. The body started to distort on the right-hand side, and the tests were abandoned, much to the glee of the folk who wanted ONE rifle for EVERYBODY, no matter how long it took.
Based on the ones I have, the plate attached to the right side of the receiver is not a strengthening member but instead serves to keep the bolt head in its track.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho