SAW Rifle

Speculation this morning was that the rifle used by the Los Vegas shooter was a SAW. I assume they came to this conclusion based on the sound and the rate of fire. No official word on any weapons used that I'm aware of. It is my assuption that there is no way a SAW could have made it into private hands in the US unless a theft of a military installation or one was recovered from a battlefield somewhere and smuggled in. Am I correct that none of these were released to private hands? I have seen them but do not recall ever firing one in my time in the service.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

SAW Rifle

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If you mean the Minimi clone that the US calls the Squad Automatic Weapon, it's not really a rifle...here's one for $31,000 USD. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/683008666

Or do you mean another weapon? They ARE around...

Just heard that a converted to full auto AR type was used. News wouldn't speculate on the number of guns found in the room. This was Fox news.
Others have claimed up to 40 rifles and over 10,000 rds, but no word from investigators yet.

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

I've got a comical story to share about Big and Rich (who were performing there) but not at this time.

Hey BAR,
I'm not familiar with that M249 MinimiSAW,
1 question: Does it break down small enough to fit it luggage?

Thx,
Scary thoughts.........

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Originally Posted by painter777

Just heard that a converted to full auto AR type was used. News wouldn't speculate on the number of guns found in the room. This was Fox news.
Others have claimed up to 40 rifles and over 10,000 rds, but no word from investigators yet.

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

snip....

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Listening to the cadence of fire in the many videos this morning, I'm thinking that they will find a "slide fire" type "auto fire substitute" system to have been used.

There seemed to be irregular rate of fire changes during the mag dumps recorded.

They seemed to be saying 10 guns were found in the hotel room on UK news but didn't know of what types.

Fox news mentioned 17 firearms at 4:00 PM

One has to wonder how he got it all up into his room, including the ammo, without arousing suspicion; it must have weighed a ton. Presumably he had "normal" going-away luggage" with him as well such as pyjamas, toothbrush, shaver, etc etc?

Ten were found in the hotel room, a squad automatic rifle is what I was referring too. in excess of 18 weapons were found in his home. No word on any of the weapons found from official sources that I have seen. $31,000, no thanks. I can imagine what the police report would read like if they did one on the majority of us. An arsenal of assault weapons was found inside the home. 10's of thousands of rounds of ammunition, swords, blades, explosive devices and all his neighbors say "he was such a quiet man. Never imagined all this was right next door, I'm horrified"

---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

One has to wonder how he got it all up into his room, including the ammo, without arousing suspicion; it must have weighed a ton. Presumably he had "normal" going-away luggage" with him as well such as pyjamas, toothbrush, shaver, etc etc?

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I walk right into the hotel with gun cases. No one bats an eye, not yet anyway.

The couple of cell phone videos I have heard one was clearly just the sound of firing. Another cell phone you could hear the snap of projectiles and then the pop from the weapon. They did not sound like controlled bursts, and if nothing was belt fed, some drum type mag must have been present as I heard burst in excess of twenty or thirty rounds. From his perch in the hotel he delivered plunging fire into a densely packed crowd 350-400 meters away for nearly 20 minutes by some accounts. At least one account states that the SWAT team was able to locate his room because the firing set off the smoke alarm. I would wager not a handful of those under fire had the faintest clue of where the fire was even coming from.

As far as bringing stuff in luggage, a guitar case or gig bag will easily accommodate a couple of full size rifles. Housekeeping had been in and out of his room since he had checked in so his weapons was likely not at stack arms in the middle of the room. That the clown had apparently been in the room since Thursday last, and chosen a corner with a clear view of the concert area suggests to me it was not a spur of the moment decision. Whether his motivation was somehow political or simply a desire to be more infamous than the last dickwad to shoot up a bunch of innocent people will be difficult to determine absent a note or some kind of manifesto. Maybe the police will find something in his home or on his computer.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I walk right into the hotel with gun cases. No one bats an eye, not yet anyway.

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Wonder myself how it might change when we head to the 2 and sometimes 3 Hotels we stay at every year when out of town, up north hunting.
Our rooms are left with that sweet smell of Hoppes #9.

Think of John Rich (Big and Rich) they were holed up in the bar with a crowd, many being military. A off duty FBI agent didn't have his side arm and borrowed the one John Rich had on him so the agent could cover the entrance, for 2 hours.
It's these can't carry places I try to avoid. Emphasis on TRY TO AVOID. I'm just not a crowd type person. Put me in a crowd and I can guarantee the strangest SOB in the place will find me!

Now the Anti Gunners have more to feed on. No way this could have been avoided that I can see. That crowd made for sitting ducks. As bad as it is........ it could have been much worse, had there been more than 1 shooter.
Another Chicken S##t that took his own misery out on others.
Welcome him to the fires of Hell..........

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Originally Posted by painter777

Hey BAR,
I'm not familiar with that M249 MinimiSAW,
1 question: Does it break down small enough to fit it luggage?

Thx,
Scary thoughts.........

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Mate, the vast majority of individual weapons and many crew served weapons (GPMG, 84mm Carl Gustav, 60mm motar) break down small enough to fit into one of the ubiquitous rolling 'suitcases' I saw going through the lobby of the hotel I last stayed in - coincidentally that was last week and in Las Vegas.

I agree with "old tanker, - sounded like belt fed to me.

The first sound bite I heard on the news down here distinctly sounded like a 100 round belt going through a GPMG M60 the rest were some sort of semi/fully auto AR type weapon FWIW

Dick

This sort of incident just adds more fuel to the fire of the A G lobbyists and the usual knee jerk reaction by the powers that be simple fact is what ever the motive by this person it was well planned to cause confusion whilst his exact location was hidden until the said smoke alarms went off.
Who knows what the catalyst was with this chap but its obvious from what I have read in this thread it was not a spur of the moment thing and the obvious end plan for him was for the S.W.A.T to kill him.
It saddens me that people out enjoying themselves and innocent in their affairs were subjected to this murderous fire some paying the price I send my condolences to all those affected by this horrific incident may God rest their souls.

Now you will have to wait and see how the Govt takes this and yet another test for your 2nd amendment the NRA in your land is very strong and I hope for all the legal and complying gun owners there it can withstand the onslaught that I gather will shortly follow.
Whist not on the same scale as this Port Arthur in Tasmania saw the Govt of the day (Unconstitutionally) castrate legal gun owners across this land and they are still getting into us harder and harder each year whether it is with exorbitant addition fees or re-classifying the weapons its just getting very hard to own a rifle/handgun now.

Sounds like overall confusion about what was used at this point. I was simply commenting on what Aragorn had suggested in the beginning, and yes a Minimi could be broken down easily to fit in a large suitcase with several 200 rd belts. I could carry that upstairs in a kitbag and make it look passable... If a guy was checked in for a while, he could bring something new up every trip out. No one would notice. Nevada's a class three and FA state too isn't it? No problem obtaining? Where there's legal there's illegal... I've had the opportunity to purchase a black ops minimi for $5000 some short years back. Would have been hot though. That doesn't matter to this guy.

You make a good point there, BAR. Laws are only as good as the level of enforcement. An unenforced (or unprosecuted) law simply isn’t a law in any sort of effective manner. Every time this sort of thing happens everyone gets up in arms (excuse the pun) about how lax our gun laws are. But they’re not! They’re just so lazily enforced.
As a process engineer during the day, it’s hard for me not to take a look at many other problems before ever coming to guns — at least in terms of public health. Smoking kills something like 400,000 a year compared to 40,00ish death by guns. If I was faced with a decision at work where both choices would lead to an inter-office battle, you can bet I’d focus on the one that would save us $400,000 vs the one that would save us $40,000.

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Originally Posted by rcathey

how lax our gun laws are. But they’re not!

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We suffer the same sort of scrutiny regularly, no one has an idea what laws are already in place. It's political though, a battle cry..."Control!"

They have identified some of the weapons he had but not the fully automatic one. They are saying they have one fully automatic rifle and at least two semi-automatics with bump fire stocks. They have also upgraded the number of guns in the hotel to 23. Those they identified include three AR types, 2 similar AR types and one AK. Calibers identified are 223 and 308. Not saying if full auto was legally obtained or illegally converted.

It seems to be such a hard job to identify things...but the police likely aren't giving info yet, the media is grabbing. If they were allowed, there are as many vets working in media as anywhere else and they'd be able to figure it out if it was given any actual priority. Sell news, doesn't matter about reality... I guess it will be formally released eventually. Doesn't really matter what they are though I guess...they did what he desired.

The media reaction to the number of guns is typical I guess. They just seem amazed that anyone would have that many firearms and their tone of voice is just "why would anyone have that many". They just got done saying the average is 8 per gun owner. Two were supposedly mounted on tripods. I expect the full auto one was one but a bump fire wouldn't work on a tripod I wouldn't think and don't believe any of the types they identified would fit on one.

While I personally don't see the point in having 23 in the hotel room when you can only possibly use a few of them, the number owned is not many compared to collectors or some hunters for that matter. I had that many before i started collecting military firearms and they were just for hunting, shooting, or investment purposes. It's not that hard. Having to supply two kids, you need three deer rifles, three squirrel rifles, three shotguns as a minimum. I have a couple of small ones that the kids basically outgrew that are being kept for grandkids.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

the number owned is not many compared to collectors or some hunters

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That's a fact, but it sensationalizes.

The soft handed, mush headed, fat-assed politicians, possessing the mechanical aptitude of turnip, cannot envision someone with a $900 dollar Harbor Freight milling machine in their garage. It is NOT a lack of skill or craftsmanship that keeps someone from drilling another 1/8 inch diameter hole in the right spot or milling the fire control pocket to the appropriate dimensions.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oject061-1.jpg

"Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught." - J. C. Watts

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Listening to the cadence of fire in the many videos this morning, I'm thinking that they will find a "slide fire" type "auto fire substitute" system to have been used.

There seemed to be irregular rate of fire changes during the mag dumps recorded.

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This matches the reports out today. I think you nailed it.

2 pictures I just came across.
Said to be from the hotel room.... per Telegraph news, pics from Boston25 news.

"One image appears to show an assault rifle fitted with a legal modified stock, which uses the weapon's recoil to allow the shooter to fire rounds at a speed approaching that of a fully automatic gun.

Police confirmed that Paddock had fitted two "bump stocks", which can be obtained for as little as $99"


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3922b1b3-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f43362c7-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

We suffer the same sort of scrutiny regularly, no one has an idea what laws are already in place. It's political though, a battle cry..."Control!"

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I would offer that politicians of all flavours and nationalities get elected and re-elected on appearances. That is the appearance that they will or are doing their constituencie's will. With that, I suggest that a politician's knee jerk demand for more legislation is too often simply an effort to appear 'on side' with absolutely no regard for the end result, its consequences or long term affects.

When we had one or two terrorist attacks earlier in the year, here in the U.K., involving hired vehicles being driven into crowds of people, one or two of our politicians immediate reaction was to say that perhaps there should be some laws/tighter regulations on who can and can't hire a van. The vehicle hire companies did point out that their staff are not trained to spot terrorists and if a terrorist did try to hire a vehicle from them, they would probably not do so looking like a terrorist.

Just think of the thousands and thousands of vehicles that are probably hired out everyday for perfectly legal purposes and reasons.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Just think of the thousands and thousands of vehicles that are probably hired out everyday for perfectly legal purposes and reasons.

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The shooter was also a pilot. Would the result been any better if he had chosen to dive a King Air into the crowd?

So the tripods apparently were bipods, thank you knowledgeable media. They look like normal adjustable stocks to me but I don't recall what a bump stock looks like.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I had that many before i started collecting military firearms and they were just for hunting, shooting, or investment purposes.

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Exact point Aragorn..
If I could just add.....
Factor in arms and collections that have been in the family and passed down for decades from my Father, Grandfathers, Father in law, Uncles, Brothers in law, older cousins etc. I've had (some Widowed) elderly neighbors and work customers pass/sell along family heirlooms because they felt you were worthy to care for them safely.
I'm still sitting on 10-12 .22's and shotguns we used when the boys were still in scouts.
I started with being gifted my first rifle at age 10. Every year for Christmas we received a new or lightly used long arm from my Father. Now count arms you started picking up on your own with odd job money as a teen. Add the guns you picked up when you started hunting big game, small game and water fowl. May be 5 or 6 different rifles for big game depending on possible range or caliber needed. Some ares we can only use slug guns for deer along with modern muzzle loaders. With hunting you pick the right tool for the job ahead. Then factor in when you started collecting. Yes they can add up to numbers that may (will) scare the media, but I can only use 1 at a time when needed, along with carrying a side arm. Then we have a number of hand guns to choose from depending on where or how to carry.
I will never reveal the number of arms I own in total, maybe too leery of Big Brother or tipping off some thief.

And how much ammo or loading supplies equals too much?

Old Tanker, Thx...
And yes the plane! and its potential.
What was the plan for the fertilizer found in his car and IIRC his home?

Was this guy PO'd about having his $100,000 slip and fall law suit thrown out of arbitration ruled as No Merits? Sour over loosing his high stakes bets over the last few weeks. IIRC he had a 7 rating as a high roller. If rated at a 7, more than likely he wasn't paying for a room. Do some gambling myself and often get 2 or 3 free flight, room and show ticket offers as perks from a few different casinos every year. Did his gal leave him? Was he on heavy meds? Financial woes? Word is he attended a anti administration rally in (I believe ) Reno in August, one or two short videos seem to ID him there. This can be found on a google search using his last name/anti/trump. May never know answers to these inquiries unless he left a note, or left a paper trail or something on his PC.

This was horrible but again I say it could have been so much worse.

Again I'm sorry this tragedy has happened.
But I get so tired that every time some idiot looses it, that it could very well jeopardize my collection of which many were collections passed down over decades to me from family, friends and acquaintances.
Will my archery gear, sling shots, BB, Pellet, Air Guns and frog spears be included next?

Charlie-Painter777

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Originally Posted by painter777

Exact point Aragorn..
Will my archery gear, sling shots, BB, Pellet, Air Guns and frog spears be included next?

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Times like this you always hear, "why did he NEED that many (or type) guns?" I just have to shake my head. Do people really want our government to start taking things away because we don't "need" them? Yikes. Talk about slippery slopes.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I don't recall what a bump stock looks like.

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The top picture above in reply 25 shows the Bump/slide stock. Picture below is pulled from a GB auction:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...66333036-1.jpg

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/702086489

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE

PULLED FROM YOUTUBE

Will they outlaw oil filters next?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haiqFcIXTqs

I have looked on youtube to see if there is a video clip of the British politician suggesting "restricting" the hire of vans but so far I haven't found anything. It did sound slightly ridiculous when he came on the news and suggested it but it was just after an a terror attack, to be fair to him.

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Originally Posted by old tanker

The shooter was also a pilot. Would the result been any better if he had chosen to dive a King Air into the crowd?

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I was referring to politicians tendency to knee-jerk reaction which is often seen to such events, from what ever country they are from, as was the previous post.

8 bump fires in his hotel room.
Slickster had remote cameras hidden in the hallway outside his room to watch for security/police.
Plus a camera set up to film his actions.
I think there's a lot more we'll learn about this SOB.

Surprise, surprise, Sheriff now saying he may have been radicalized and they are trying to determine by whom. Political motive is now in play. Not confirmed but a turnaround from day one.

Google search videos, Paddock anti trump
he was shown on video at a anti administration (pres) in Reno in Aug. That was put on by ANTIFA
Now factor in him eating meds like m&m's.............. 100% Nut job.

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Originally Posted by painter777

100% Nut job.

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But if he was a complete "Nut job" would he have been able to do so much pre-planning that he clearly did? I don't know the answer to this question but what do others think?

Clearly Pre Meditated
Possibly more than 1 plan in mind.
I still wonder about the Fertilizer and Ammonia Nitrate found in his car and his intended use of...

Do you know how much fertiliser was found?

Not yet, just getting bits and pieces of information right now

Fertiliser bombs were said to have been used, according to media reports at the time, in some of the attacks that the IRA carried out on the U.K. mainland during the 1970's and 1980's and some did an horrendous amount of damage.

Look up the Oklahoma City bombing... Felt over 30 miles away.
I think this will work:

April 19, 1995: Oklahoma City bombing Video - ABC News


http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/april...mbing-46913956

Lots of functioning nut jobs out there. They can plan and explain things in great detail. They just can't fathom that they are wrong, social causes specifically.

Like Father Like son ?

Read this closely, Quite the role model to learn from:

Father of Las Vegas shooter lived in Chicago, where he did time and started a family - Chicago Tribune

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

They just can't fathom that they are wrong,

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Swindlers can 'Fathom' that they are doing wrong.
This guy was making his last stand, not worried about doing wrong or covering his last tracks.
Set up and filming his last stand for all to see his greatness....... in his mind.... What was left of it. Less yet after that self inflicted round to his own head. 1 in 100 chance of hitting his brain by this time.

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Originally Posted by painter777

1 in 100 chance of hitting his brain

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Can you imagine waking in the hospital in police guard? The disappointment in knowing you'd have to take responsibility?

I was wondering how Americans feel about President Trump's visit to Las Vegas, yesterday, to meet some of the injured in hospital and also meet some of the emergency service workers and others who were involved in the aftermath? I, as a non American, thought that it showed that he cared about his fellow countrymen and should be appreciated, even if you don't share the same political views.

Replying to no one in particular:
All this talk of banning bump fire stocks makes me a bit nervous.
"This sliding device enables a user to fire a gun in a manner approaching the speed of a fully automatic" can quickly turn into "this gas operated piston enables a user to fire a gun in a manner approaching the speed of a fully automatic." Bye bye Garand, I hardly knew ye.
I would want more specifics than Feinsteins bill currently has. I don't give two hoots about the bump fire stock or the guns they typically attach to (just not my cup of tea) but it's a principal at stake. Death by a thousand cuts and all.

Found this researching how the media had the total number of firearms purchased by the purp over his lifetime in less than 24 hours. I think this is the answer. It appears to indicate there is a high percentage of firearm registration data available with a government key stroke and explains the push for universal BG checks to register the rest. Why is no one talking about this?

eTrace - Wikipedia

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Originally Posted by rcathey

Death by a thousand cuts and all.

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We've been dealing with this for years.

I fully support the regulation if not outright ban of bump stocks. I never supported the legalization of these things. Of all the things Obama could have done concerning gun control, he ignored this and went after everything else. His administration investigate them and found them within the legal guidelines of the law. So instead of adding them to the class 3 list, he just left them go. This isn't about firearms, it's a freaking $60 accessory to a firearm that makes it the near equal to a $6000, $200 tax stamped full investigation firearm that any local yokel can buy without any kind of check whatsoever. I listened to two idiots today, Rush Limbaugh being one, talk about how all these do is reduce the recoil. That's a load of crap and anyone who knows anything about firearms knows it. Not even a slippery slope here, it isn't a firearm, doesn't affect any firearm that is legal to own today. It's an accessory that is not needed for any practical use other than making a lot of noise and a wow factor as you waste a lot of ammunition.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I was wondering how Americans feel about President Trump's visit to Las Vegas, yesterday, to meet some of the injured in hospital and also meet some of the emergency service workers and others who were involved in the aftermath? I, as a non American, thought that it showed that he cared about his fellow countrymen and should be appreciated, even if you don't share the same political views.

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Trump may appear as pompous and bombastic on the surface. He, unlike our previous President, I believe he (Trump) sincerely cares about all the people in the world.

JMHO

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I was wondering how Americans feel about President Trump's visit to Las Vegas, yesterday, to meet some of the injured in hospital and also meet some of the emergency service workers and others who were involved in the aftermath? I, as a non American, thought that it showed that he cared about his fellow countrymen and should be appreciated, even if you don't share the same political views.

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I have to hold my breath when Trump does anything. Don't get me wrong, I like most of what he's doing but he is so unorthodox and unpredictable when he opens his mouth it's unnerving. One thing I do appreciate about him is the he loves this nation and the people in it and that is very refreshing.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

It's an accessory that is not needed for any practical use other than making a lot of noise and a wow factor as you waste a lot of ammunition.

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Aragorn, I honestly do agree with you. Again, I don’t care anything about AKs (awfully unergonomic) or ARs (listening to that buffer tube spring ring in your ear isn’t fun) but what you say above is exactly what I mentioned earlier in the thread.
The government regulating things based on need would be totalitarianism. Further, legislation containing language like in your above quote is one teensy tiny step away from banning any and all semi-autos. “A bolt action is all that’s needed to harvest a deer and anything else has no practical use except making a lot of noise while wasting ammunition.”

I realize this latest tragedy is an emotional issue for most folks here, but a reminder .. ;)

Where can I discuss politics and gun legislation issues? (click here)

Thanks for your understanding .. :cheers:

Regards,
Doug

Noted, Doug. Didn’t know that area existed :P.
Thanks!

This has not been verified but sources close to the administration have leaked information suggesting that they now know the shooter was radicalized about 6 months ago. As with all the leaks which have taken place over the last 8 months, I take this with a grain of salt. They continue to say that an announcement of some sort will be made but they are concerned it may spawn more attacks. There is supposedly a video. The FBI has completely denied finding anything so we will see.