Your thoughts on this "No. 4 T"

I have the opportunity to purchase this "No. 4 T" (no transit case or scope can etc) for $2,500 USD. The seller acquired it approx 15 years ago. The cheek piece, front hand guard and front band were missing and added over time. The barrel is very good but I forgot to note if it was 4 or 6 grove. While I am looking for a shooter "T" and not a collector grade 'T" I have concerns that this rifle may not be assembled with all original "T" parts and not worth the asking price. My concerns are as follows:

-Rifle looks blued. Were rifles blued in the repair/FTR process?
-Is the scope/mount reproduction. They look to new and not like original "T" optics I have seen.
-The front pad looks like it is to far forward.
-The font used for the scope serial number on the butt stock does not look period/FTR.
-The front hand guard looks to large/oversized.
-The cross wire in the scope is wavy.

Which "T" parts, if any, on this rifle are original.

All input appreciated, Thx

Personally, I see evidence of rebluing at the barrel ring and the left side flats. Inside of the left side too, a purple hue...like the bluing a civilian would do.

Well, I will go out on a limb here and say most if not all the parts are most likely original "T" parts, although it appears to be a put-together.

You said you want a shooter, and looking at the pics provided, I doubt it would shoot good at all. The wavy scope cross hairs indicate the graticule is broken on one or both ends. That will never lend itself to accuracy. Also, it looks to be wearing a no 4 mk 2 forearm (cross screw at rear). That tells me it was never properly set up, and any play in this area equals poor quality.

As far as a collector piece, I would steer clear of it. I have no problem with mis-matched T's (I have a couple of mis-matched). I think someone got to that rifle with a hand stamp-set and made the items match. The relief cut on the mount with rifle serial number added is highly suspect. I have two FTR'd 1943 T's, and they are refinished in black suncorite paint.

By no means am I an expert: I like to shoot and collect enfields, and have learned much about these rifles over the last 30 + years. I have also been burned on several enfields that were matched/built in bubbas garage, and then passed as original (CYP/NIC no5's:mad:) Live and learn...

I would go with your gut feeling. If you are having doubts, pass on it. There are others out there that both shoot well and will increase in value.

I'm sure the experts will be along shorty to add more specifics.

Best of luck

If it's a mk2 conversion then it should shoot really well considering that Dalglish bracket appears to be collimated to the rifle.
The wood is certainly oversized, be a good use to find out if it's a mk2.
Scope might need an overhaul, but looks like a good shooter.

FWIW I would agree entirely with SMLE addict. I also agree that, whilst the receiver is likely genuine, it has been refinished at some point, or at the very least the finish has been 'touched up' as BAR mentions. The milled panel with the stamped rifle number is almost certainly bogus (the milled panels are more typical of the L42 era, & even then 'new' rifle serials were generally engraved into the milled box rather than stamped). The butt may be a genuine example (the S51 looks right), but if so it would be off a later rifle - probably a BSA 1945, in view of its manufacturer, with someone having stamped the early scope serial into it. The front guard looks quite odd. Could it be a poorly made after market replacement? Agree also about the wrong Mk2 fore end.

It would be nice to get more photo's of the rifle receiver with scope & bracket removed, as well as some of the bracket & scope dismounted from the rifle.

The front top fore wood has not been sanded down or finished by the armourer if a replacement, has anyone ever seen the ENGLAND stamp applied in the upside down on the wrist, the scope needs repairing straight away so that's going to cost a good few dollars, this rifle may have seen Indian service by the very nature of the "Ishy " screw, others may assist further it just seems a few things not quite there as #3 mentioned may be a cobbled together

I'll cut straight and diplomatically to the quick. It's about as straight as a corkscrew. But like I say, I could be wrong

As presented and solely by the photos, I have to agree with Peter, the AR 6594 etchings are IMHO probably the weak point, and although the bluing does raise issues, and were not present of the time, other things don't gel together as a package to ie bracket.

It does look very much like a bitza, and if it was offered I would probably have to decline it unless it was really well priced to be able to take a gamble and sort it out.

Last year I saw several butts sold on Ebay with S51 stamped on them, so unless someone has fallen over a box hidden in an old factory unit of H&H which has been excavated, I would have to assume someone has had a stamp or stamps made!!!:(
But heyho you asked for opinions and that is mine for what its worth

These things are often remediable, & I would take it on, but the crucial point is that it would have to come at the right price......

And the finish of earlier 4T's was blued. I have a few rifles dating from 1941 to 1943 that still retain their original blued finish. Brunofixing is typical of 44 onwards & suncorite on very late & FTR'ed rifles.

Roger,
Have to say, not seen one that blued and clean around parts that by their very nature and placing take some stick.
Thanks for that
Gil

It seems, to me, an "indian" sniper rifle.

Serial number, then, is correct, I think.

Hi Gil. I've got a nice B1941 4T somewhere that retains most of its blued finish. I'll see if I can find a photo of it.

The thing I see here is there's so much conjecture, vastly differing that it would be a good one to perhaps pass by unless it's priced very, very right... Too much possibility here for a stung buyer I think. To much "Maybe".

Well if the original poster pulls the trigger on it they are up to having the scope repaired straight away as by the look of it there is no straight bit of wire for the crows to sit on an added cost before a shot is fired. If its really "Dirt cheap" go for it the going rate here for just a T no CES is around the $7k mark for a good one cobbled togethers or faux pas go for about 3k +- with the correct scope may not be colminated but the scopes a No.32

I think Steve has had some expert advice on what he has presented.......pass on this one IMHO, and keep your eye out for a good one, and my recommendation would be, from someone off this site:thup:

Hi Gil. I know Steve762 has decided against the rifle in question, but just out of interest here's my B1941 early H&H conversion to 4T. Note it's been blued over rough machining marks, indicative of the pressure the country was under at the time. It also lacks all of the 'typical' H&H 4T markings. However, I know the provenance of this rifle & it's impeccable!

ATB

Roger,
Nice one and interesting to see it so pronounced on that early example.
Agree also with these rifles, you do need to know your stuff and what to look out for, as dates and stamps appeared to be all over the place at times and in various countries.
There are some "proper" indicators on Steve's proposed rifle but also a couple that make it appear to be a bitza. One has to say, had the seller known a bit more of its background it may have stacked up and been worth a punt.........but as always, you buy the rifle not the tale!!

This link to spotting a fake on the site is always a good reminder and a good read:

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?...)-Sniper-Rifle

The so-called "Ishapore screw" indicates that it almost certainly came out of Indian service. They seemed to like shiny bluing. An original bracket that I had which came mismatched on an ex-Indian service Long Branch No. 4 MK. I* (T) sniper rifle had a very shiny blued refinish.

The electric pencilled serial number on the socket is not a concern for me as I have seen that style of serial number marking before. The upside down ENGLAND - not an issue. It was just a mark put on a surplus rifle by, I am sure, a very bored worker after the war. There is a faint inspection mark to the right of the bolt in the body just forward of the cocking piece. One would want to check the marks on both sides. The matching scope number is the only one there, is stamped very lightly compared to so many others that I have seen, yet is on an "S51" marked butt. Replaced fore end is from a No. 4 MK. 2 apparently. Was the trigger mounting also changed? The butt has the Mk. II swivel, typical on late war British sniper rifles, which made it much easier to fit an M1907 sling with its claws.

The scope bracket, Dalgish N92 marked, has obviously had an earlier rifle serial number milled out and this rifle SN marked on (round topped "3" rather than typical British flat topped "3"). The person numbering it seems to have used a "B' first time around, realized their error and remarked it "R".

The most suspicious feature for me is that the butt has the S51 and the lightly stamped single scope serial number on the wrist matches BUT the bracket has obviously been renumbered. I would want to see the butt removed to see what if any rifle SN is hidden and carefully check marks beside the bolt and on the barrel. I doubt is the spares system had British made "S51" marked butts with no scope number marked. The butt is English made so was no taken off of a Stevens-Savage No. 4 MK. I (T.LESS TELESCOPE) or No. 4 MK.I* (T. LESS TELESCOPE) which has the "S51" mark and cheek rest, and rifle SN but no scope number. The scenario appears to be that the bracket was changed in service, but that the the same scope, an early one at that, was retained on the rifle.


Opinion - May be real No. 4 MK. I (T), reworked in the Indian Army system, but some doubt remains.

I have my doubts that it's ever been to India. It has a Mk2 fore end on it that bears the 'Ishy' screw, but who fitted it to the barrelled action is anybody's guess.
The serial number lightly engraved is fine & typical of the time. I was in my gunroom a little earlier looking at AV02XX & it's just as lightly done.
My gut feeling is that the metalwork of the rifle is genuine but the wood, scope, & bracket have been added after the event. In my limited experience N22 butts are only commonly found on late (1945) 4T's. I wouldn't want to push the issue, but if I had to bet on it I'd go for it being off another rifle of late manufacture. It could be from one of the less telescope rifles, which would explain why there appears to be only the one scope number on it. The front guard is clearly not original to the rifle, & the bracket has had its original rifle number milled out & crudely & unconvincingly replaced with the current rifle number. Being a 43 rifle it may well not have both the D6E & the E7E stamps on it. Many just have the BSA factory examiners' mark of E7E on the right side (bolt handle side) of the bolt guide way, but at some point in 1943 the D6E started to be applied to the LHS as well.

ATB

I don't mean to keep picking at nits, but as I was looking over the first post, picture #12, the underneath of the forearm, that looks like a "P" over "56" or "66". That is a Pakistani marking, is it not? Same photo, the end cap looks like it also has a "P" over a two-digit number. I have seen POF No4's with and without that "ishy" screw. On this side of country (west coast), I have seen several POF No4 Mk2 stock sets for sale. Some have been at gun shows, some advertised on line.

smle addict,
You are not picking at anything............. this is exactly what the site is about.
To digest and analyse stuff like this to ensure people make a reasoned judgement call when they are presented with an alledged proper rifle they intend to buy, and they have asked for advice.
There is enough expertise on here to be able to..........(from photos of course), achieve a sensible response, to either buy or leave something IMHO anyway.

I still feel it's worth it as a shooter, even if the forend is wrong, it can be replaced then there is additional fun added with installing it.
2500 for an all legitimate ( no made in China) parts/project gun seems worth it.
The OP wants a shooter, this is a good example to do the mods he wants without worry of ruining a true example, if any mods are even needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Note it's been blued over rough machining marks

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Yes, but his had obviously well polished spots that to me is something altered and hiding something...just a bit different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jonh172

I still feel it's worth it as a shooter,

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Except the scope needs repair and that could be a problem...depending on where you live.

Yes, but his is a 43 rifle & the external finish had improved by then. I was just indicating the roughness with the horizontal machining marks out of interest - it's typical of early BSA's. The main point I was making is that some 4T's really were blued; the brunofixing & suncorite coming later on. I agree with you that in matey's particular case the finish probably has been touched up.

ATB

Thank you Roger Payne for your observations and rationale. They are always appreciated.

Further to the earlier comments.

On the scope bracket milling, I have a bracket that is milled in the same manner. It came without a rifle but with a MkII scope and a matching scope tin. All markings appeared to very very genuine.

Paulseamus, is the serial number within the milled panel engraved or stamped into the metal?