The early days of the M16 rifle in Vietnam

I happened to view a couple of documentary programmes last night concerning the history of the Vietnam war and America's involvement with it. The programme interviewed a number of people including U.S. veterans and in the course of the interviews it was stated that the M16 rifle was found to have reliability issues when put into combat in Vietnam. The number one complaint seemed to be that it had a nasty habit of jamming during a firefight which may necessitate a strip down. It went onto say that the rifle didn't take kindly to the presence of dirt or to not being cleaned properly.

I have heard it suggested before that there were issues with the M16 rifle in the early days but I have not heard the problems mentioned quite so specifically before. Obviously America decided to stick with the rifle and sort out the problems. The general impression that I get is that by the 1970's the problems had been sorted and the rifle had started to gain a reputation for reliability. What sort of modifications were done to the design to make it reliable?

The programme also pointed out that the AK rifle and variants used by the NVA and VC were found to be very reliable, even if poorly maintained.

I wondered what others thoughts are on this? Thanks for any information.

As I understand it the issues with the early M16 was two fold. #1 there wasn't enough cleaning kits for the rifle going around early on. #2 the usage of a dirtier powder than originally called for (using up excess powder from 7.62x51 instead of the newer cleaner powder) caused the rifles to get dirty much faster, which coupled with #1 lead to some serious issues.

Th Ichord Committee's report on the M16 procurement can be found here Report of the Special Subcommittee on the M-16 Rifle Program of the Committee on Armed Services House of Representatives : United States House of Representatives : Free Download Streaming : Internet Archive

Both of the above also troops were actually told early on the rifle was "self cleaning". Failure to extract was the norm so after proper cleaning techniques were established along with a nickel plated chamber and bore the rifle started to function as it was intended. Along with a forward assist feature these rifles then became the M16A1. I was issued an A1 when I first went into the Army. If cleaned properly the rifle functioned well and it never jammed on me when needed. Blank ammunition like any weapon was a major pain in the ***. We were also drilled heavy on clearing stoppages which I think also was an issue early on.

You can still find photos of troops with a cleaning rod taped to the hand guards of their XM16E1 rifle, very useful to remove a fired cartridge case from the chamber.

The Edgewater buffer never worked out well with full automatic fire and had to be replaced by 1967. Also the early steel gas tube was replaced too.

The waffle magazines were replaced and the troops were instructed to throw them away (that is why they sell for $300 to $400 ea nowdays)

A butt plate with a trap to hold cleaning gear was also added

These are just a fewAttachment 87795Attachment 87796 points of interest to add to the above posts.,,photo shows Edgewater buffer in early Colt SP1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RCS

The waffle magazines were replaced and the troops were instructed to throw them away (that is why they sell for $300 to $400 ea nowdays)

---

Other than government wastefulness, was there a reason for this?

Robert McNamera, whose parents were never married, came from Ford Motor Company to the Defense Department, was famous for saving money, insisted on using the wrong gun powder in the 5.56 rounds, which fouled the rifles beyond belief, saved a few pennies and murdered many American youth.

rcathey, the waffle magazines were made of steel and could rust, also stated to have problems in reliable feeding

Has anyone ever themselves or witnessed another use the forward assist?

I have used it, as it is part of our drills with the C7 (Canadian M16). I have also seen the rare stoppage caused by not using it (embarrassing for the fellow beside me as it was at a live range). His stoppage was caused by riding the bolt forward instead of letting the bolt go forward on its own. I don't think it is really that forward assists are useful and likely could be done away with (a current civilian trend with the M16/AR15 is to not have the forward assist and I haven't seen any issues arising from not having it). If your rifle is so dirty that the forward assist is required, you have bigger issues than what a forward assist can solve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

I have used it, as it is part of our drills with the C7

---

That's only because it's our drills. If we had started using the bolt catch, and just allowing the bolt forward by it's self we wouldn't cause the stoppage you speak of. We do the drills wrong for the rifle, against it's design. The actual bolt closure device can buy you into more trouble by hammering a round in instead of clearing it out and carry on.

OP needs to get the book "The Black Rifle" and read comprehensively. Otherwise we'll have the whole book posted here in forum. The questions and answers are simple, and all covered...no cleaning kits were initially issued. When Eugene Stoner went to RVN to find out what was happening, he was informed by the USMC there that no maintenance of any kind was being done. Yes, the wrong powder was used, fouling the bore until he couldn't see light.

Yes, waffle mags were steel and rusted in jungle conditions. The next mag was better, and then after teething problems the 30 rd came along...

The rifle that went around the world for demo was old #4 and hadn't had any stoppages that the rifleman demonstrator could remember...he'd shot a phenomenal amount of ammo through it by the end of the sales tour.

Dick Culver has two very thorough papers on the saga of the M16 in Vietnam that begin with MacNamarra's cost saving efforts (using up old stores of "dirty" powder, eliminating chrome plating of the chamber). The chrome plated chamber was very important in the cycling of the firearm. Because of the weapon's timing, extraction began while the brass casing was still "obturated" or expanded from the expanding force of the gas discharge. Without the chrome lining, the coefficient of drag imposed by the chamber upon the obturated case was enough to cause a higher than acceptable failure to extract.

Dick also mentioned a derivative failure that occurred in 1968 when the chrome was reintroduced: Once it was discovered that the deletion of the chrome was causing issues, the lining was added back. However, in the production spec with the chrome deleted, the size of the chamber had been properly adjusted downwards to replace the diameter in the prototypes taken up by the prototype's chrome lining. When they reintroduced the chrome lining, it didn't seem right to pitch the already manufactured barrels so they simply chrome lined them -but they didn't re-ream them to make space for the addition of the chrome. As a result, the new chrome-lined barrels went into action and exhibited the same failure to extract, but this time, as it turned out, because the chambers were now out of spec. Talk about a bureaucratic inability to win! :madsmile:

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

it didn't seem right to pitch the already manufactured barrels so they simply chrome lined them -but they didn't re-ream them to make space

---

Sounds about right...we had a similar thing with our original C8 carbines...

Regarding the forward assist in the competition between the M14 and the FN for US service rifle it was very close. The M14 bolt could be manually assisted to close whereas the FN could not. The US specs were changed to require a manual bolt close feature which gave the M14 a few more points.
IMHO when the M16A1 was adopted it appears this spec was carried over and so we have the forward assist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by green

when the M16A1 was adopted it appears this spec was carried over and so we have the forward assist.

---

The air force wanted it gone but the army wanted a bolt closure like the M1 or M14 had. Then there was the discussion about which side... Stoner himself was against it.

Like the AR-10, the very early AR-15 rifles had the cocking handle on top inside the handle like an upside-down trigger, You could open the bolt carrier back or push it closed with this type of handle, but it would
have been difficult with gloves

In “Dead Center, A Marine’s Sniper Two-Year Odissey In The Vietnam War”, from Ed Kugler, he tells the story of a green company getting caught in an ambush and being beaten up pretty bad (35 KIA, if I’m not wrong). The guys were carrying M16’s, and Kugler says he found quite some fallen curled over a half-stripped rifle.
Bad enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WarPig1976

Has anyone ever themselves or witnessed another use the forward assist?

---

I have used the forward assist to close the bolt after riding it forward while trying to chamber a round as quietly as possible.

In most other circumstances, if the bolt traveling normally fails to close completely, the round is bent or some thing is interfering. If you are lucky, hitting the forward assist well let it chamber and normal firing will resume. If you are unlucky you will have jammed things to the point you can't get the round to fire nor can you get it out of the chamber. Worse, the bolt carrier will be out just enough, you will have trouble because it is partly in the buffer tube.

By July of 1969, the Army was getting the word out to the troops...

DA_Pamphlet_750-30

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by browningautorifle

That's only because it's our drills. If we had started using the bolt catch, and just allowing the bolt forward by it's self we wouldn't cause the stoppage you speak of. We do the drills wrong for the rifle, against it's design. The actual bolt closure device can buy you into more trouble by hammering a round in instead of clearing it out and carry on.

---

100%, again as mentioned the one time I have seen that it would have prevented a stoppage was due to operator error the exact one mentioned by yourself. I personally am against the forward assist, extra weight which doesn't really serve much of a purpose.

The "Ball Powder" fiasco was just one of the "edicts" that caused dramas.

"Self-Cleaning"? Yep, that'll work.......in a wet tropical region.

That "vintage" buffer was a straight, scaled-down lift from the AR-10, A rifle that the AR-15 only looked like and sort-of worked like.

Forward "assists" and reciprocating cocking handles have one BIG problem. You do NOT want to have the heel of your hand on one when the bolt slams forward and a round fires. Only did it ONCE with a questionable M-1 Garand. What followed was a quick trip to the hospital to have a dozen stitches inserted to put all the bulldozed flesh back in place.

Thanks for all the input chaps which is very interesting. It's a good idea of Jim's to get the book "The Black Rifle", thanks. I notice that there are 2 books with this title but I need the one that has "Retrospective" on the cover.

I seem to recall hearing or seeing somewhere it suggested that the barrel was shortened on the "standard rifle" (not one of the derivatives) at some point? Would this be correct?

I have been shooting the AR15 platform since Army in 1974-77, the Air Force in 1979-81, and a s a shooter and LEO ever since. I have never had to use the forward assist, with the exception as part of an immediate action drill, where it wasn't really necessary. Like my M1 carbines, I could count the malfunctions I have had in all those years and tens of thousands of rounds on one, or maybe at the very most two hands. While I never used it in combat, I did use it in field exercises, crawling in the dirt, dust and mud, and it still functioned.

I prefer the "slick side" upper AR15s (601. 602, 604, SP1, and assorted USAF incarnations of the GAU-5 A/A and GAU5/P).

As to the very early years, Advisers for MAC-V used AR15s (601s and 602s) in 1961-1964 as part of ARPA's project AGILE. I know several of those guys. They took better care of their weapons than the average grunt. The AR15 performed very well for them, and there is a lot about it in "The Black Rifle" including transcripts of early engagements. Stoner's team reccomended chrome plating the bore and chamber, but Macnamara and the Whiz Kids thought it was a waste of money...instead they wasted lives. Just like using the wrong powder, they wanted to save a buck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Thanks for all the input chaps which is very interesting. It's a good idea of Jim's to get the book "The Black Rifle", thanks. I notice that there are 2 books with this title but I need the one that has "Retrospective" on the cover.

I seem to recall hearing or seeing somewhere it suggested that the barrel was shortened on the "standard rifle" (not one of the derivatives) at some point? Would this be correct?

---

The Black Rifler book is my bible! Another great resource is Retro Black Rifle.com Retro Black Rifle www.retroblackrifle.com
and ar15.com retro forum AR-15 / M-16 Retro Forum - AR15.COM

As for the shortened one, it was a model 605, with a 15.5" barrel, cut off just in front of the front sight base, and threaded for a three prong flash hider. They had to open the gas port quite a bit, because there was little bullet dwell in the barrel after the gas port. Modern replicas often use a carbine length gas system with a low profile gas block, and the FSB is only for the sight. Also most people do a 16" barrel to keep from needed a tax stamp for an SBR.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../SVRL42c-1.jpg

---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by old tanker

I have used the forward assist to close the bolt after riding it forward while trying to chamber a round as quietly as possible.

In most other circumstances, if the bolt traveling normally fails to close completely, the round is bent or some thing is interfering. If you are lucky, hitting the forward assist well let it chamber and normal firing will resume. If you are unlucky you will have jammed things to the point you can't get the round to fire nor can you get it out of the chamber. Worse, the bolt carrier will be out just enough, you will have trouble because it is partly in the buffer tube.

By July of 1969, the Army was getting the word out to the troops...

DA_Pamphlet_750-30

---

Great Comic Book manual. I still have an original I got from the arms room in 1979. Pretty worn now, but very cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Great Comic Book manual. I still have an original I got from the arms room in 1979. Pretty worn now, but very cool.

---

In July of 1969 I was here:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...orthwest-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I notice that there are 2 books with this title but I need the one that has "Retrospective" on the cover.

---

You NEED both. Don't cheap it out and just get the one. Also if you can find an updated or improved later copy take it. The first is basic and the second will embellish the first. I have both. Get them both and consume them. Then read them again...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by old tanker

In July of 1969 I was here:

---

AND you made it BACK. Well done that. I'd love to sit and chat with you about tank action in that f*ckin' place...

Folks--

If you go to this link you will find just about every manual an book on the AR platform. Many are in a .pdf format and can be downloaded.

RETRO MANUAL FOLDER - Google Drive

Enjoy

--fjruple

Major Culver, founder of the CSP Forum, was involved in the Viet Nam M16 'fix' and it is documented here:

Welcome to Culver's Shooting Page

and here

Welcome to Culver's Shooting Page

includes why McNamara's military industrial complex forsook the 30 cal, and the unknown changes to the ammo that precipitated the jamming problem, and an old marine armorer who took care of his troops with unauthorized field repair, and the eventual final fix after many unnecessary deaths.

Good read, I've saved it to offline so if a website goes down I'll have it.

---------- Post added at 10:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------

I actually posted the web link but when I submitted the reply it only took the forum address.
If you click on the address, in the header at the top of the page, go to the "Saga of the M16" which is where this is found.

or

in the url type http://www. then jouster2.com/Sagaof16Part1.html and jouster2.com/Sagaof16Part2.html