M1/M2 Carbines in Ken Burns "Vietnam" on PBS

I have been watching Ken Burns extravaganza on Vietnam. It is interesting that the second most common US firearm, after the AR15 platform, used by us and the ARVN is the M1/M2 Carbine. Until around 1965, or so, the Carbine was the most common.

I knew a guy that was a MACV Advisor in the early 60s, and he used an M2, even though he could have an AR15 (Model 601 or 602 - the incarnations prior to type classing the platform as M16 and M16A1). He said everything they did was close up and personal (generally 50 yards or less), and the .30 Carbine round was very good at permanently reforming communist insurgents. He also said it was more reliable than the AR15 platform in the jungle. That agrees with what my dad said about his carbine on Iwo Jima - very reliable, in more ways than one.

As a side note, the series is fairly well done and objective, and shows little or no evidence of Burns' left leaning tendencies. No examples of the revisionist history that is so common now days - probably because so much primary source research. There was lots of primary source stuff, including presidential tape recordings of Kennedy, LBJ, and Nixon. It very closely mirrors my recollections of growing up in those times, though I did not go into the Army until 1974 at age 22.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../UF6vjLS-1.jpg

Yep, I watched every episode. Believe I only dozed off a couple of times - I thought it told "the story" very well. Made me think a lot of what some of my family members went through while there - my "Milsurps Family Members," too. I got to see the "wall" 30 years ago while on a business related trip to Maryland, DC, and Virginia. I found the names of a couple of friends and took several pictures - it was a very emotional visit for me. Been wondering if anyone else was watching it. - Bob

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I did not go into the Army until 1974 at age 22.

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I did the same except I was 17...

I see you have a rubber handled M4. Those were in high demand a few years back, bringing high prices. I found a source here and sold a few that I bought at $10CDN each. They ranged from as new to complete junk, had come from somewhere in the Pacific I think.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I did the same except I was 17...

I see you have a rubber handled M4. Those were in high demand a few years back, bringing high prices. I found a source here and sold a few that I bought at $10CDN each. They ranged from as new to complete junk, had come from somewhere in the Pacific I think.

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I was told it was Korean. Blade and hilt identical to US made M4 bayonet. The scabbard it came in was garbage, though so I replaced it.

I thought they were a rebuild program from somewhere tropical...the ones I saw were all US manufacture and some hard to find. The only difference was they had this handle cast onto them...probably old goodyear tires melted down...the sidewalls at least. The ones I saw had no scabbards and were in a wooden crate.

Tjis one had the rubber cast on, also. I had to trim the flashing with a razor. I don't think it has any markings, so I don't think it is a US made one. I'll have to double check, though. Its been awhile.

Back in the '80's my older son was planning to join the US Army upon high school graduation, so he had a recruiting poster on his bedroom wall. It showed a group exiting a Huey into a hot LZ. The fun, at least to me, was that if you looked carefully the one in the back was carrying an M1 Carbine, not an M16. I suspect he was the smart one.
By the way he did join the army and did two tours in Panama as an MP after the fall of Noriega.

I know I have said this before (many times, LOL) but I carried a USGI M1 Carbine for years as an LEO trunk weapon. I easily qualified with it on our 100 yard course, and I never had a malfunction. The caveat is that I ONLY used USGI 15s and 30s, with new springs, and always made sure i had a recoil spring that was at least 10 1/8" long. I had the utmost confidence in it, especially after I took a 180-200 lb. Blacktail deer with it in 1988, at 97 paces with a single broadside heart/lung shot. I was using R-P 110 JSPs. Heck of an exit wound!

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

As a side note, the series is fairly well done and objective, and shows little or no evidence of Burns' left leaning tendencies. No examples of the revisionist history that is so common now days - probably because so much primary source research. There was lots of primary source stuff, including presidential tape recordings of Kennedy, LBJ, and Nixon. It very closely mirrors my recollections of growing up in those times, though I did not go into the Army until 1974 at age 22.

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Thanks for the positive review. I have been trying to find an antenna that will allow me to pick up my local PBS station so I could watch the series.

It is available for streaming online at PBS website.


01: DéjÃ* Vu (1858-1961) | The Vietnam War | Broadcast Version | PBS

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

It is available for streaming online at PBS website.


01: DÃ[emoji767]jÃ* Vu (1858-1961) | The Vietnam War | Broadcast Version | PBS

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Thanks for this!

I, like most here enjoy seeing the guns and equipment used. But seeing the turmoil these vets had to come home to, returns that sick sour feeling in my gut. Then when I think of them, I think of how most are spending their remaining years trying to forget.

Bless Those That Serve :cheers:

I thought it was a well done film. I enjoyed it until they got to the hippie/protester part. I had forgotten how much I hated those low life scumbags who sat on their worthless a$$es and lived high on the hog with all of LBJ's "War on Poverty" free money. When I got home to SFO it was almost midnight and there were only a few useless asshats . My brothers picked me up and had a case of beer in the car for the trip home. I made them stop so I could buy a quart of milk. I walked in the front door in Petaluma, my Mother said " My God, what happened to you?"

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

It is available for streaming online at PBS website.

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Even better.
Thanks!

We had and used M1 Carbines on our boats. That's what got me started collecting them when I could afford it after getting out.

I recorded and am about half way through the Vietnam series. Brings back some good, and sad memories. I don't think I'm looking forward to the wall episode.

Me too. I lost a couple friends who went, and my Cousin Joe, a Marine killed on his second tour. His dad was a Marine Tank Commander in the PTO in WW2. My Oldest brother went as an O-3, but came home in one piece.

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

We had and used M1 Carbines on our boats. That's what got me started collecting them when I could afford it after getting out.

I recorded and am about half way through the Vietnam series. Brings back some good, and sad memories. I don't think I'm looking forward to the wall episode.

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Jim, what bothers me is forgetting the names of some of the guys. They weren't important enough to remember I guess, I will never forget SGM Zeitlow, Charlie Torliatt, Cameron Rice, he died down by you in the delta. Hit in the chest with an RPG there wasn't anything to send home. His parents never accepted his death. I don't want to ever go near that wall.

Indian Country
These were taken out on Hwy1 28 klicks s/o Nha Trang. I was 21 or 22 years old.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c0e1c7_b-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6f7633_b-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fc1a08_b-1.jpg
I have an M3 grease gun that isn't visible in this photo

No rank, no patch, no name, That's how I rolled when out and about.

Thanks for the review - since it was PBS doing the show I avoided it... Nice to know it was not the usual revisionist stuff. I did a short tour there in 1971, attached to the 101st... My Dad did two tours there (1965 and 1969).

In that era you didn't even want to tell anyone where you'd been or what you were doing when you got back... When I tried to tell my Dad of the very bad things I saw (not involving combat - but heavy, heavy drug use and terrible discipline problems in rear areas - he didn't want to hear it..). He did 28 years - as an Engineer (gliders in WWII - as he said "thank God they cancelled the program before it was his turn to go...", then OCS stateside, then a long career everywhere (and with a family tagging along -back in the days when Army families traveled by ship - not airplane....).

That war left us in pretty bad shape - the only real bright side was the many young officers from that era that would go on to leadership positions in the following years - and do their best to square us away...

Like many, I lost folks I'd known in school over there - and have never joined or participated in any veterans outfits ever since....

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Originally Posted by lemaymiami

and have never joined or participated in any veterans outfits ever since....

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Likewise, I've never participated in veterans groups. I did that, it's past. This is now, try to move on.

Yep, same here. I was briefly in the American Legion, but drifted away. Lots of looking back instead of forward. A friend wanted me to join Vietnam Vets as they were accepting all Vietnam Era veterans at the time. I declined for two reasons. One I was never in country and two, the old looking back instead of froward. After 22 years in law enforcement, including being a homicide investigator, I had enough horrors to remember of my own, I did not need others.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Likewise, I've never participated in veterans groups. I did that, it's past. This is now, try to move on.

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Agree, even though a Life Member of the VFW, I've only been to one of their posts once. But I do try and make the yearly Memorial on Coronado my old unit does to honor those we lost in Vietnam.

Dave,
I wrote names on the back of pictures to remember who our guys were. Being only 16 men and replacements it wasn't too hard.

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

But I do try and make the yearly Memorial on Coronado

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Likewise I attend our Remembrance day...some shape of another. But, incognito, no medals. Just an old guy. Then over to my past unit remembrance close by the downtown service...

Thanks to all of you who served for your sacrifice & for sharing here.

I must respectfully disagree with the notion that film maker Ken Burns has provided a "Fair and Balanced" non-revisionist account of the Viet Nam War. I recommend reading, for starters: The Ken Burns version, contd | Power Line
This article includes a quote from Mackubin Thomas Owens, a Marine platoon commander '68-'69 and recipient of the Silver Star. He writes,
"I was stuck as well by the downplaying of the patriotism and sense of purpose that fortified the resolve of many of the Americans who served in Vietnam—including the two-thirds who volunteered. Absent too is any sense that the war might have been right to fight, even if, in the end, it was fought wrongly. Nor is there any real allowance that the war was fought wrongly in primarily strategic—rather than moral—dimensions."
I agree.
Semper fi,
Bill -- F4Rio

I was there for 365 days, I cannot recall a single conversation about the war being right or wrong. Everyone just wanted out of there. I do recall many conversations about the French war and WW2. A lot of guys from the Korean war and WW2 were still in the Army. One of the best days I recall was getting drunk with a British ship captain. He was quarantined at Nha Trang because of a bubonic plague epidemic. He was an amazing guy and had some great WW2 stories.

I agree, Dave. It was just understood in those times that patriotism and service was a motivational force and was expected of us. Ours dads and uncles all fought in WW2 and Korea. My oldest brother enlisted, was in 6 years, and was an O-3 in Vietnam, my next brother did Peace Corps, and my sister was a nurse with the Tom Dooley foundation in Laos. My cousins were Marines, and one was KIA on his second tour. I never heard any discussions of moral rectitude from them or my senior NCOs when I did go in, it was more understated and understood that what we were doing was right.

My draft number was 322, but I enlisted in the Army at 22 (1974), even though my brother had threaten to shoot me if I enlisted - he did not want me going over. By 74 the threat had worn off, though and I went in anyway, even though I was married and had a one kid and another on the way.

BTW, though I never went over, I "enjoyed" the animosity of the anti-war crowd stateside (in the California Bay Area) as well. I was spit on in Oakland while making a stop on my way to Oakland Army Base (first duty station), and called a "baby killer" at a gas station in Alameda when I made the mistake of still wearing my uniform on the way home from the base. Even after the war, when I was stationed at Fort Ord, CA, and lived off base with my family in Watsonville, I covered my uniform shirt because if I didn't I would be verbally smeared. In California, during the entire 70s, being in the military was like "The Scarlet Letter" and almost like being a leper. I remember at a wedding of distant relatives, I told someone I was a garbage collector....

Anyone read "About Face" by Col David Hackworth ?

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

during the entire 70s, being in the military was like "The Scarlet Letter" and almost like being a leper.

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With us too. Shows how ignorant people were, the RVN issues bled over on us.

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Originally Posted by painter777

Anyone read "About Face" by Col David Hackworth ?

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Yes sir. Hack and I used to exchange emails when he was still alive. I sent him an SLA Marshall Book "Battles in the Monsoon" that had his photo and some stories in it, somewhere around here I have a personal letter from Hack on his "Twin Eagles" letterhead thanking me for the book. He was one cool dude I would laugh out loud as some of his emails. He had 8 purple hearts and 11? silver stars, 3 or so DSCs. He had balls the size of grapefruit. He told the truth and the Army didn't like honesty.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

when he was still alive

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SLA Marshall.... aka Gen Slam !

IIRC, without having the time to look it up right now, I believe Hack died from the results of Agent Blue. Went to Mexico for an alternative/experimental medical treatment. IDK, but may have been Kidneys or Gall bladder. Died..... early 2000's ?

D Hackworth started out as a young teenage post WwII in the Merchant Marines.
I remember Dan Rather trying to pin him down about whether or not he was (insert better term here)allowed, entitled or qualified for the Ranger Tab... memory foggy here.
Either way I'll always remember his "Out Guerrilla the Guerrilla Fighters " using their tactics against them.

After he left Vietnam, when they went after his old unit for possible War Crimes, I can remember the newspaper that dug in on that. It was the Toledo Blade. I can remember because a good friend and team mates' Father was one of the Editors. I'll guess saying late 60's at that time. Editors (one that I knew) was last named Brinson. Who quit his job over the potential hanging of Hack. Brinson moved on to the Detroit News or Free press (Don't remember which).

IMO.... An American Hero whose Tiger Force tactics could have changed that war if it wasn't for the political climate.
Remember him challenging the Navy Admiral over the (?) service ribbons? That Navy Admiral committed suicide before being questioned by the reporter Hackworth.

Where's the movie about him?

CH-P777

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

My draft number was 322, but I enlisted in the Army at 22 (1974), even though my brother had threaten to shoot me if I enlisted - he did not want me going over. By 74 the threat had worn off, though and I went in anyway, even though I was married and had a one kid and another on the way.

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Why was your brother upset, enlisting in 1974 was a safe bet. We got out of Vietnam in April 1973.

A few additional thoughts about those years... When I went in the service at the end of 1967 the anti-war stuff was just beginning to heat up (and the small school I had been going to still hadn't seen any dope at all - in northwest Alabama...). Most that I knew were reasonably patriotic, although more than a few with no idea of what military service might entail were simply scared enough of the thought of war that they stayed in school... All of that would change. I didn't get to Vietnam until 1971 and by then, where I was, Phu Bai and points north, things were just falling apart. In fact when I left the place I was in one of the first groups that had to undergo urinalysis to get out of VietNam... True story, they took 200 of us to a locked down compound and made us pee in a bottle in small groups under the watchful eyes of MP's... The idea was to identify those with serious heroin problems and get them some treatment before out-processing them.... Not exactly a tale of wartime heroism. Some of the guys in line with me were shaking so badly you wouldn't need a **** test to tell they were in withdrawal...

I was an Army brat, born in an Army hospital in Germany, just a few years after the big war... Mother Canadian, Dad a young Army officer, I grew up on one base or another around the world so I was definitely favorably inclined towards the service. The things I saw over in country pretty much cured me of that...

Years later when my dad passed away my mom was assigned a young assistance officer to help her with all the paperwork involved. We were a bit surprised to learn that non-Hodgkins lymphoma (the proximate cause of his passing at age 78) was considered service connected for anyone that served in VietNam... something about agent orange was the speculation although the only connection was simply a much higher death rate from that disease for anyone who'd been in-country...

I urge every veteran who had feet on ground or traveled from certain vessels back and forth from ship to land to go check in with the VA. There are many diseases that they are now relating to agent orange. Some you may not have considered. High blood pressure, prostate cancer, and 12 others. Age is of no comcern to start receiving compensation and treatment. Perscriptions can also be covered. There can be other benefits as well. Some places, (Home Depot for one) give a 10% discount if you have a VA card.

At a minium, hearing is a 10% disability, who doesn't have that from all the firing we did.

We have earned whatever they are willing to give. If you have any of these and get compensation, then later pass because of one of them, your wife will get about 50% of your compensation for the rest of her life. Don't get confused with all the paperwork. Most places have a County Verteran's service office. Run by ex military people that will actually do and file the paperwork for you electronically. It goes through a lot quicker when they do it, and they know all the T's to cross and I's to dot.

And you might be surprised at the amounts related to each percentage. It can be sizable and make a big difference in your living. Oh yeah, it's tax free too.

10%....=$133.57 a month
50%....=$919.64 a month
100%..=$3078.11 a month wowza!!!!

Below I've attached the sites showing the issues related that they will cover, and the compesation tables.

Go in, get checked, and on the agent orange registry. No reason for not or waiting.



Veterans' Diseases Associated with Agent Orange - Public Health

Veterans Compensation Benefits Rate Tables - Effective 12/1/16 - Compensation

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

hearing is a 10% disability,

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I got 5% without even putting in for it...(Canada)

Hmmm... I have a rare Leukemia (one that is commonly from agent orange exposure) that VA is already treating me for since 2011. My Oncologist assumed I had been in country, and was surprised when I said I wasn't. I was, however, stationed at Oakland Army Base at the piers, and at times handle or guarded sensitive items that came back. we drove a V100 Armor car around (I was an MP) that we offloaded from a boat, and it was covered with sticky stuff. He thinks I may have had exposure. Several of my vet friends tell me to file a claim, but I did not want to feel like a poseur!

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

Why was your brother upset, enlisting in 1974 was a safe bet. We got out of Vietnam in April 1973.

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I enlisted in the MPs, who were still active in country until the fall in 1975. Only front line combat troops had been withdrawn. In fact at the MP School at Ft. Gordon, they came around offering bonuses for MPs to volunteer for SE Asia, Vietnam specifically (though they weren't broadcasting it). My wife who was there, living off post with our daughter, put an end to any thoughts I had about it. My brother thought I was making an end run around him.,

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

at the MP School at Ft. Gordon

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Is that in GA ?

I ask because I've spent a few hours looking after wondering where testing and storage may have been done.
This link shows the US testing the 'Agents' since back in 1944. I see testing was, among other places, done at Ft. Gordon, GA. in 66-67.
Haven't found where it was stored.

https://www.publichealth.va.gov/docs...de_vietnam.pdf

Then came upon this about the planes used to spray it.
Along with : Herbicides were also used by the U.S. military to defoliate military facilities in the U.S. and in other countries as far back as the 1950s.

Veterans Exposed to Agent Orange - Compensation

Millions of more gallons used than stated by DOD.
If these planes were contaminated... what about any returning equipment?

Charlie-Painter777

Really, that's interesting....We spent some time in the boonies at Gordon doing out tactical and convoy training, including some icky swamp water.

In C130s, CV2, Hueys and occasionally in C123s. Those were the Agent Orange aircraft. You would climb in the back of these aircraft and they were usually a wreck inside. No wheel covers, so you'd be enjoying a smooth takeoff and suddenly a 6' tall filthy dirty wheel would rise up still doing 150mph throwing crap all over the inside where the people were. Literally a spinning 300lb chunk of rubber within a foot of you. If they had done some agent orange, you were now sitting in it.

I have peripheral neuropathy, my legs and feet have no feeling from the shin down, I have had it for 15 years. Doctors think that it is diabetes until they check the pulse and it is wonderful in the feet and legs. It is the number one complaint of VN vets and unless you claimed it withing 6 months of discharge, tough titty. I was 23 years old at that time and so tough titty. I had no high blood pressure when I was drafted and I had it when I got out. There was a lot of really bad stuff going on over there, fevers, parasites.....I can't imagine what Jim was exposed to down in the filthy delta of the Mekong .

Maps of Heavily sprayed areas in Vietnam. You can download a file and Use the Google Earth map.
Maps of Heavily Sprayed Areas and Dioxin Hot Spots - The Aspen Institute

Along with the C123's, Small aircraft, fighters, helicopters and some boats were used to spray.
Also found the use of ground vehicles with mounted sprayers and 2 gallon field pack sprayers for manual application.

Some US Cities bought surplus sprayers that they used to spray for mosquitoes, remember DDT? Along with Dioxin, DDT was extensively used.

Post War use of the Planes:

"Many of the same aircraft that dispersed Agent Orange during the war were later used as transport vehicles during (relative) peacetime, primarily between the years 1971 and 1982. And tests taken many years after those transports show the planes still contained dangerous levels of the chemical."
More Here:
Did Agent Orange Poison US Military As It Did Vietnamese? Yes - Flashbak

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

I can't imagine what Jim was exposed to down in the filthy delta of the Mekong .

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I was 21 when I came back from my last tour, 22 when I got out. Not many were complaining, just wanting out so no one filed. Like Dave I have peripheral neuropathy and no feeling from the shins down. It just goes along with the wounds, heart baypass, pulmonary hypertension, enlarged right side of my heart, and five cancers. But hey, I'm still looking down and not up at the daisies.