2" Mortar end cap

Thanks to the kindness of a member they have assisted me in completing one of my 2" H.E inert mortar rounds. (pics of completed round even date matches the mortar)
It had been lanquishing for years with the end cap missing for the actuator cartridge to be honest I have trolled e bay for ages here and the 1-2 military fairs we have each year with no luck.
I made mention if the member would be so kind as to keep an eye out for one as where they are situated they had a better chance to obtain one.
So without further ado they had one in the mail to me and due to its size & cost informed me not to worry about the postage costs.
Previously they had assisted with another part of my collection that was missing a piece all at cost price but also their time in obtaining it was not factored in.
This is what it is about assisting each other as very few sites offer this depth of knowledge and assistance to the members.
For some it may seem a trivial piece to the mortar round but to me it was always niggling at me as the other 2 had their end caps so now the 3 of them are complete (2xH.E 1xIlum)
My deepest gratitude to the member involved they know who they are.

Sorry for the pics (I-Phone) our Siamese cat (The Boss) pulled our good camera off the desk in my room it now has to be repaired before we go on our trip to Sing & VN.:mad:

2" and 51mm mortars were good kit. We used to call then 'section artillery'. Made a small Infantry fighting section into a VERY versatile part of a platoon.

Cinders,
A bit of useless information on the 2" mortar.
I personally took to the tube big time, it was very accurate in the right hands within a Platoon. As long as you knew your "angle of dangle" it was a lethal piece of kit.
The times I saw it being used wilyl nilly with Para Illum being launched down wind when you needed the battle field lit up and often saw the bloody light dissapearing quick time in the wrong direction and not floating across your front!!:ugh:

It was an unforgiveable piece of steel tubing, and didn't like the human body when doing parachuting rolls, it hurt bad, but like the 66mm, always worth taking along, as it was always used to GREAT effect. As long as you could find enough suckers to carry the bombs for you:banghead:!!
When I took three veterans back to the Battle of Plaman Mapu in Borneo in 2015, there were hundreds of fins and end caps stroon all over the hillock and that is not an exageration, showing that many mortar rounds were dropped on bthe location as the Indonesians infiltrated the lines!!

That bomb looks great, more complete than any I've seen so far...even the instructions. Yes, I was weapons det too for some time. My thing was the .30 cal but the 60mm was still there. Our bombs were different, but lots of those are still in the fields in Alberta...good to see that one complete.

Here's a fact for the 3" that the Australian Army learnt the hard way apparently when the bombs were in the early stage of development no one had really envisage dropping them from an aircraft so in New Guinea the need to air drop them was acute but here was the catch.
When the crates hit the deck it apparently armed the fuse so the crews not knowing this took the cap off dropped it down the tube only to have the bomb detonate inside the tube killing the crews I do not know where I read it possibly in one of my books of that campaign but it cost them dearly until they sorted the issue out I guess that is why they have the pins to remove before firing.
I wish I could remember the book as it was a real disaster for a bit till they twigged but in that jungle as in Hurtgen Forrest with so much overhead canopy mortar rounds suffered airbursts so laying flat on the ground was in most cases not a good idea.

How strange I was offered a complete 3" mortar sight the other day in its case for £100.;
I think he put it on that site ending in Bay

Brings back a lot memories, I used to dig them up by the hundred at times when out metal detecting many had corroded, but around a dozen or so were like new after a good clean, the other bits to survive were the fins and the detonator part that the cap screws onto........ these all varied in condition though, other finds were parachute flares some complete with parachute and smoke bombs also about 5 complete HE rounds that never detonated.

I wrote not long ago about how the flare part lit up the village when I threw a bit on the open fire......

There was another type of cap which was the same but half the size, only ever found a handful and where in a different location can't remember what they were off.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

There was another type of cap which was the same but half the size,

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I think that I may have one of these attached to the fins which is all that's left of the round. I'll see if I can dig it out another day and photograph. It looks like a shotgun shell/cartridge under the cap.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

It looks like a shotgun shell/cartridge under the cap.

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That's correct.

The one I'm on about is the same as in cinders pics but half the size and has "Remove before Firing " on the top.

What was interesting whilst talking about the 3" mortar, at the Battle of Plaman Mapu in Borneo on the 27th April 1965, the 400 Indonesian Special Forces broke through the perimeter wire and it was clear bombs had to drop within the location where 36 men of 2 PARA were defending.

To enable the bombs to cut short their flight the mortar team, headed by one brave man George Averre, instructed the removal of the charges and the fins, and is attributed with his skill throughout the 2 hour hand to hand battle holding the tube upright as he dropped them exactly where he wanted them each time...........other lads were honoured for their bravery that day, but he got nothing. He dropped 600 rounds this way, a hell of an achievement.

Every soldier, agreed that without his skill as a mortarman, and the in depth knowledge he had, together with his team that day, it would have been highly likely that the new Malaysian Federation would have been lost, as well as themselves being executed so President Sokarno could have made a point!

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

"Remove before Firing "

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Sounds like the cap that went on over the fuze on the pointy end. Had to come off so it would work.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

He dropped 600 rounds

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That would have been a hot tube, even on charge zero...ignition cartridge only...

From my collection a live ICANZ 3" actuator/ignition cartridge for the 3" this piece goes inside the base of the fins you then attach the bags to the space between the fins dependent on range required its roughly about the size of a 12Ga note firing flap which strikes the flat pin at the base of the tube the flap has a tiny firing pin on it.

That flap looks like it needs to be removed before firing. The firing pin at the bottom of the 60 or 81 mm mortar is pointed and contacts the primer directly like any other firing mech... I'd say that whole rim thing has to come off the cartridge before it can be installed. They slide up inside the tailfins and they look just like a 12 ga shotgun shell for the 81...we got cases for replacement in the practise tailfins.

Jim,
Yes by all accounts from his mortar team, "fluids" were used at various stages, but as you can imagine, with the enemy inside the wire, there was little time for a sustained flow or stream :)

The cook on the location was the man chucking up 2" Para Illum throughout the battle. He had never fired it before in his life.............shows you what ANY soldier can do with fast basic training with something so simple but highly effective in the right hands. Just because he was a Chef, doesn't preclude him from being a soldier first!!

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

The cook on the location was the man chucking up 2" Para Illum throughout the battle. He had never fired it before in his life.............shows you what ANY soldier can do with fast basic training with something so simple but highly effective in the right hands. Just because he was a Chef, doesn't preclude him from being a soldier first!!

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It reminds me of the time, years ago, of seeing on a television news report one of our politicians visiting some soldiers doing some training involving live firing of mortars, probably on Salisbury Plain. As may be predicted the politician was asked if he would like to "have a go" with the mortar. I was amazed to see that the politician inserted the mortar round into the tube upside down with the fins pointing skywards. Fortunately one of the soldiers grabbed the round before the politician let go of it but I did wonder how anyone could be so stupid as to insert a mortar round into the tube the wrong way.

What do you expect F10 from an elected idiot!

Here are a couple of pics #1 showing the F/P on the flap pic #2 the case sat upside down highlighting the cartridge can be inserted with the base on we can see the rim acts as a support against the base of the opening so it is not pushed further into the tail fin when it strikes the F/post at the bottom of the tube causing a possible misfire.
I obviously did not insert it correctly as its a very tight fit and the last thing I want is that stuck in the tail piece with an out of the blue inspection by the Police to ensure compliance with my collectors license as for now it is just another live cartridge.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Just because he was a Chef, doesn't preclude him from being a soldier first!!

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They all have to train with the rifle and shoot anuals...

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I was amazed to see that the politician inserted the mortar round into the tube upside down with the fins pointing skywards. Fortunately one of the soldiers grabbed the round before the politician let go of it but I did wonder how anyone could be so stupid as to insert a mortar round into the tube the wrong way.

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I had an infantryman do the exact same thing. The pointy end seems to want to go in easier. I asked him the exact same thing and he still holds it against me as harsh treatment...30 years later. Fortunately I know when to say "I don't give a f*ck"...and he doesn't matter. Outside users of equipment need to be supervised closely by a soldier. Been there done that.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

the cartridge can be inserted with the base on

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I see...it's just that I've seen lots of them and this piece has never been in the picture...it's something that could end up staying down in the tube and be a stoppage...but I see it could maybe fire this way. I've unpackaged hundreds of 81's, not 3" so I can't be definitive...maybe Peter...

Jim, if a mortar round was dropped down the tube the wrong way is it almost certain to explode in the tube or is it just a possibility, please? I would assume that there is a very high probability of it doing so, but not having been trained on mortars, I am not certain.

I'm not a mortar expert but I have worked on bomb fuzes for a long time. They have SADs or safe arm devices so that they can't go off if dropped. They need a substantial force to rotate the SAD into alignment with the explosive chain, even 27mm Mauser ammunition has them. They require a large forward force and a large centripetal force to align the ex train. I would imagine mortars being the same or similar.

You're right BP, they do have inbuilt safety devices just to prevent that sort of accident. Incidentally, there is also a drill for removing a live if it fails to exit the tube.

While the bomb might seem to rattle down the tube like a stone, it is fairly well cushioned by the air it compresses in the tube on its way down. On the way UP, there's a hard light green coloured 'driving' band that is opened and spreads very slightly by the explosive force to ensure that there is minimal space between the bomb and the tube that might allow excess propellant gas to escape. That's why bore measurements are quite critical and logged in the barrel history sheet/log book at regular intervals.

As BAR will confirm. There's an almost pleasant BOOOOOOMPH when you're standing close to the gun pit. But when you're close to the muzzle, as the loader is, it's ear shattering. That's why the loader drops the round in, he rolls around,drops head below the muzzle and hands over ears - as if by force of habit.

Mortars cause more casualties than any of the other Infantry weapons. Devastating until you can pin point where the gun pit is

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

if a mortar round was dropped down the tube the wrong way is it almost certain to explode in the tube

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Absolutely not. They are armed by an inertia system that activates when the speed of firing out of the barrel takes place. If they'd go off when dropped, they couldn't be brought forward in armored vehicles. If you look up the mechanism of a fuze, the little springs and such will be evident.

We watched a well drilled crew at Northam Army camp in 1971 as Cadets watching a fire power demonstration by the regulars the 3" guys set up their mortar at which point they fired off 10 rounds and were honestly starting to get ready to dismantle the mortar before the first round hit we watched them just disappear into the clouds admittedly it was a cloudy day but disappear they did.
Had I not been sitting their watching it I would not have believed it, a most satisfying booomph as PL says and an even better boom from the rounds detonation they did inform us a 3" mortar round has a 100' lethal zone anywhere in that circle when the 3" arrives and your toast others may be killed further out by shrapnel but if your'e in that circle............................

They also put on a squad demo with SLR's and the M-60 and quite a healthy lot of lead was slung down range by them the M-60 was using 1-4 tracer so for us cadets it was noisy and well worth watching.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

dismantle the mortar before the first round hit

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An old gag performed for women and children...the guns are set at max elevation so the ammo has it's best hang time in the air. Our dismount drills demanded 45 seconds to "Area clear" and everything just went into a pile in the truck. Always good for a laugh...we never actually used the guns like that...

Yes, the lethality of the 81mm bombs is no joke. 60's were great for support too...

Getting back to the original post etc, whilst having a clear out found the end cap I mentioned, the two were together with the bottom half of a No69 grenade, believe it or not I found the the No69 part with my metal detector.......... only reason for it being found was a .303 case next to it, obvious a lot more No69 stuff about were I found it but will have to wait till they invent the bakerlite detector. I can still remember the place I found it, also the end caps below were from another location and the only two I ever found. Diameter is 1 3/8 " bit bigger than I thought but smaller than the 2" ones.

They are similar to the No69 grenade cap, but the thread is on these is at the bottom, the No69 grenade the thread is at the top of the cap.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../sH4SJQm-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../FACGtg1-1.jpg

Yes, those cover the fuze so it doesn't take a bash... I expect they used a common and simple thread, as you suggest.

Talking about 2" caps they used to leave the caps on HE rounds for certain firing conditions, I can remember some veteran telling me about this. I have also found blown 2" fuzes with the remains of the cap still in place.

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Originally Posted by Topfmine

leave the caps on HE rounds for certain firing conditions

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Delay action? They'd go in deeper before detonation...?

bigduke, you may well find that the thread of those caps is a BSP thread which as you probably know, confusingly, the nominal thread size does NOT equal the outside diameter of the thread. So, for example a 7/8 BSP thread is listed as having an outside thread diameter of 1.189" but in practice this will measure a little less.

Those Bakelte detectors are on the restricted list.........along with Brass Magnets.

Still don't know what they were off...... anyone have any ideas.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Those Bakelte detectors are on the restricted list.........along with Brass Magnets.

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I never really knew what it was till I got home then realised without the .303 case it would laid there for a long time, the condition of it is remarkable considering what its meant to do, all the threads in tact even has some sealant still on them and the green band.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Still don't know what they were off...... anyone have any ideas.

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Do you refer to the caps pictured? They go over the fuze of a 3" mortar. They're pot metal so they'll never rust to the steel of a bomb.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Do you refer to the caps pictured? They go over the fuze of a 3" mortar. They're pot metal so they'll never rust to the steel of a bomb.

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Thanks Jim, thats the ones I was referring to, the ones In my post.

Here's a fuze on the left with one in place...ideally...

BD6 ~ here are the two types side by side spares that I have the 2" fuse cover is on the left the 3" fuse cover is on the right a marked difference in size, thanks for the share guys, now for the next 20 year hurdle a complete 88mm Tiger tank round, heck I think I just saw a flying pink pig fly past my rooms window how bizarre!

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

a complete 88mm Tiger tank round

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Well, we know there's one here...we just missed it by a day. I'll keep watching, it was a young guy and I'm hoping he'll want the cash for something far less stellar.