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Does anyone know if the upper and lower receivers of Thompson SMG have to be welded together, by U.K. law, for the current spec of U.K./E.U. deactivation or is it just the way that some are deactivated by some dealers/armourers, please? I know that the upper and lower receivers of the Bren are now all welded together but wasn't sure about the Thompson. Thanks for any information.
Yes they are fixed together in the new EU spec. The theory behind this is, you cannot gain access to the welded internals & 'Convert/Modify Etc'. Load of Bollo....Er rubbish as usual. Foisted upon innocent UK collectors.
& we seem to be the only country slavishly following the specs too!!!!........
Let's at least HOPE we can revert to. Or at worst have pre 2010 & Pre 95 specs acknowledged in the UK. After BREXIT?
I'm probably being Naïve here, but that is all we have at present......Hope (?)...:(
I was reading something online somewhere, last night/early this morning that suggested on Continental Europe, in most countries, WW2 era MG''s and WW2 weapons in general are regarded as antiques and so don't generally have to be deactivated even though the ammunition may still be readily available. I don't know how true and accurate this article is but if it is correct it seems very unfair that we in the U.K. have to suffer the consequences of other European countries having inadequate gun controls.
Same across the European board unfortunately........................
Move back to the LONGBOW and archery, it served us well in the 13th Century, and still as deadly today.
No doubt there will be someone who will dream up a Yew Wood Section1 Certificate
Did you know:
While the first wooden archery bows were made from yew, numerous types of wood have been used through the years. Among these wood types are hickory, mulberry, walnut, ash, cherry and hickory along with exotic woods such as basswood, yucca, osage orange, lemonwood, blackwood and ironwood.29
Try and deactivate them!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm just waiting for lorries and vans to be banned in the U.K.; there has already been talk of restricting who can hire them. Or perhaps they will decide to deactivate them by removing the engines and fitting square wheels? :lol::lol::lol:
Our old Ukraine matey would need a Section 5 for this little beauty we showed in an earlier thread:
Ukraine: Student builds rubber band machine gun - YouTube
Hahaha, square wheels. That’s fantastic lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Don't give them ideas Gil !!! String cut in at least three places and saw cuts at least half way through the body in three different places, then encased in a block of resin so you can't get to the non working parts Its just the sort of crap that gets piled on us... A growing number of MP's are calling for the licencing of Air Rifles now too, I can see FEO's all over England walking into broom cupboards, quietly closing the door and jumping up and down screaming their collective heads off, talk about herding cats...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
I doubt it mate, seeing as how all EU law is being copied and pasted into British law, I am sure this latest pointless tut will be too...Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
Some British M.P's say this is only in order to give them time to work through the legislation, so that they can make a considered decision on what E.U. laws to keep and what to ditch/change.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Problem being F10, we are taking 1000's of pieces of legislation and guess where firearms related matters will be .... Yep, right at the bottom of the pile, don't expect it to be looked at for at least 50 years!Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
I didn't say that I agreed with them, I just repeated what some of them said. More importantly, for me right now, I have a U.K./E.U. deactivated 1928 A1 Thompson in my life and I am planning to post some pictures shortly here. It's the one with the smooth barrel just after the fins were dropped. It's in amazing condition, almost like new, with just a few dings to the woodwork.
I sold all my pre-95 spec de-acts before the law changed, including a M1A1 Thompson and used the money to buy a mint live No.4T, but, I've still got both of my pre-95 spec M1928's......just couldn't part with them, even though they may now be worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
One is a Savage made 1928 with finned barrel and Cutts, and Lymon rear sight. I also have a 50 rd drum mag for it and front pistol grip.
The other is a very late Auto Ordnance made A1 with smooth barrel, L-post rear sight and appears to be an original British/Common issue gun, still with original finish from what I can see.
A good decision and sound investment, I sold all my pre 95 de-acts many moons ago, to fund the live ones, must admit I should of held on to a few, ( Sten, Lanchester, Srterling, L1A1, Vickers...etc) But thats life, the money went into the live stuff and other bits and gradually progressed to what I have now, obviously I had to put some more cash in but very happy with what I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeRam
Back on the subject and to those who are members of the HBSA you will have read page 6 ??? a small snippet I was reading today,
EU FIREARMS DIRECTIVE 91/477
Provision is made in the finalised EU Directive,2017/853, to allow for some national deactivation specifications to be accepted by the EU. The Home Office furnished details to the Commission in June. The Commission will decide within 12 months whether , or not, to accept current national standards which differ from those in force in regulation 2015/2403. The UK will have to transpose the Directive into national law and must meet several deadlines to accomplish this.
The first of these is the 14th Sep 2018 for member states to have in place electronic means of exchange of information. A further deadline for Member states to have in place an electronic system that allows RFD's to immediately notify transfers to the authorities will be the 14th December 2019.
Unresolved issues remain with regard to the licensing of deactivated firearms and large capacity magazines.
Thanks for that interesting info Geoff, I wonder what they mean by "Decativated Firearms licencing"?
Only the EU would try and license a cut and welded lump of steel and wood, the Europeans do love their pointless paperwork!
Good grief, soon as we're free of these cretins the better....
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
To be honest John, haven't a clue, I can only guess its trying to keep track of all Deactivated firearms etc, AFAIK the pre 95 ones were not in a proof house register of any sort, so maybe trying to get everyone with a deac to register it or come forward etc?? The mind boggles........
I've just enquired about a Bren Gun carrier........ although its a long shot fingers crossed, if it does come to something I'm going to need a Bren and don't fancy a new EU spec one, maybe have to wait till that window opportunity is with us.......
I believe the existing laws have provision for selling a 'defectively deactivated' gun (ie anything not an EU spec) outside of the EU. After Brexit, we will be outside the EU!
Thats the Window of opportunity I speak of ............ it could be a day, weeks ,months etc.
Yep, it will be closed quickly and quietly no doubt. I imagine they will rush through amendments to the newly copied and pasted act before anyone notices that's an option...
True John, but I think there will be a few thousand other issues to iron out when we leave, so we may be lucky ??
ACPO recommendation in their recommendations from 2015, Police want to make it a criminal offence to be in possession of a deactivated firearm that has not been deactivated to the CURRENT standard. Anyone with an old spec deactivated firearm will have to have it done to the current standard if they wish to keep it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
So don't expect any favours on de-acts once we're out of the EU, its one of many items that ACPO/Police want to change/tighten up/ban etc.,etc in the coming years until every firearm of any description is banned in UK.
...........................and they'll pay for it to be done too. Yeh right :rolleyes:
With you there Gil, the reason they side stepped the old deacs with the new legislation and effectively grandfather d them is, they have no idea who has what and we are talking about a daunting task, many1000's of deacs to track down, register and possess.
The proof houses can't cope with the current demands on them, never mind respectively poring thousands of additional deacs on them to register.
Who will carry out the enormous and very expensive administration required and who will carry out the engineering work required ... Last but not least ...who will pay for it all???
All to make a useless lump of steel and wood, em, an even more cut and welded useless lump of steel...
What pointless nonsense this is.
There are also very thorny legal issues regarding private property to get round. They aren't Firearms, so you can't do a slight of hand and move them to Sec5.
Sadly, they have made a rod for their own back if they go down this route. They say they are only letting London and Birmingham do the mods to an agreed standard.
The stable door was left wide open many years ago with lots of engineering houses doing deactivations, this is going to be a mammoth task with millions of rifles/MG's/Launchers/Pistols etc already out there.....blimey what a mess, and then to try and regulate air rifles/pistols on top of that.
Could be waiting years for your variation on your FFC's if they don' have more staff on the job.
No logic at all......I'm afraid.
That won't happen, there are thousands upon thousands of deactivated firearms out there, they have made it law that you can't sell trade etc a deactivated firearm that is not to current spec, its stopped the trade in old spec stuff full stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeRam
The cost of trying to keep track of who has what, would not justify the actual process of doing it........ most Firearms & Explosive units are as mentioned stretched to the limits, so I doubt very much anything will happen on this front. When you think of the Logistics involved when we pull out the EU I doubt deacts or firearms will be on top of the agenda........
Poof houses are just that, they do not do any work of any kind regarding deactivation, they only proof, inspect and test ammunition. Too many assumptions out there at present..............
Spot on Geoff, I wouldn't doubt when the EU proposed the new deac laws ACPO (or whoever is in charge of such things now) took the opportunity to look into banning, retrospective re-deactivaton etc.
I am sure they were rapidly informed by government lawyers that the legal issues and huge expense made any action a complete non starter .. Hence the zero cost option of grandfathering old specs.
hi all, can anyone tell me about this Thompson ?
I know its by savage arms by the inspector marks, and a lot of 's' on the parts
but what does MR mean on the stock ?
can the year of manufacture be determined by the serial number ?
the fore grip feels light so not sure if black walnut
thanks in advance
The wood looks like Walnut to me. The number is available in one of the books I think, possible American Thunder. I don't have it though. The initials could be anything...yes, it's a Savage gun with all the "S" markings. It's a later gun though, I can tell you that from the size of the number. There should be other inspector's marks, such as GEG which is George Goll...the rifleman demonstrator for Col Thompson and inspector for the guns.
The MR stamp on the buttstock is the rebuild stamp for the Mount Rainier Ordnance Depot, denoting it once went through a Govt Ordnance Rebuild program.
The majority of Thompsons that went through this program went through either the Mount Rainier depot or the Augusta Arsenal depot.
that probably explains why the numbers don't match then, lower still a savage arms one though
That's not so unusual for specially M1 or M1 A1 Thompsons. They would reuse uppers or lowers as required and they would just use as was without restriking numbers. Their spares were a vouple lowers in the tool box.Quote:
Originally Posted by philb
Also after the war, the groups that received these to surplus didn't care about matching anything. I've seen an MG34 that had different numbers front and back in my city while the "Matching" gun was sent across the country. These mismatches didn't matter to surplus dealers. Just a complete parts list to sell.
Yep, my Savage M1928 has been through an arsenal rebuild, getting a parkerised finish, and mismatched upper and lowers.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Matching numbers are more commonly found on prewar guns that were owned by agencies, police departments or private individuals. Many just sat in safes for decades and got little use. Now, when they come up for sale many still have a good bit of their original finish.
Today a transferable all matching 98% 21AC will run you around $40k. They are investments, doomed to spend the rest of their lives in some collector’s safe.
A “Cheap” shooter West Hurley will only set you back about $15K. They were 21’s that were converted at the factory to semi-autos (M1927) and later converted to full-auto. So, they don’t have all matching parts.
The ones in the UK are deactivated and as such have been through a company that took them apart, welded and ground and set parts solid...mixed them up and assembled them. Same troubles that happened when they came into Canada in the mid '80's and were changed to semi auto only, called converted autos. I had hands on a pair of MG 34s that had the halves swapped and then sold half the country apart. They came together again for bluing so I discovered it and got the owners together to reunite the matching parts. When they're being messed with by civilians for profit, matching or correct doesn't matter.
Another reason they are mixed up...
Not always. Depends who did the de-act work etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
My other '28, an original British issue, very late manufacture, Auto Ordnance made M1928A1, still has its original finish and matching numbered upper and lower.
I used to have a lovely Savage M1A1, very sensitive old spec deac (cock and click) with matching numbers and vertually full original finish.
Sold it some 10 years ago now, I'll dig out the pictures when I get a chance.
One of the (now long defunct) Charnwiod Ordinance jobs, so typically for them, they placed a welded and blind pinned steel rod mid barrel, slotted the chamber area, but left it clear.
They also "typically" left about half of the Breech Block intact.
Quite safe and "deactivated", but they pushed the law as far as they could, to give collectors the best possible piece.
All submitted to the proof house and correctly marked and certificated, so perfectly legal to own.
That said, I am still amazed the Proof House accepted clear chambers. The Home Office guidence of the time was quite clear regarding obstruction of the chamber on long arms, blind cross pinning with hardened steel pins, or rodding and welding up the bore right into the chamber area was the norm.
Most (but not all) Charnood old specs were done in a similar fashion, I've seen various examples of their sensitive work over the years, from Thompson's, M1 Carbines, Garands, L1A1's, various Webley and Enfield revolvers and 1911A1's.
Most worked to a similar sensitive and we'll engineered standard.
I have Charnwoods in my collection. L1A1, STENs, Enfield Mk3 and a few Brens, all nicely done. I also have some nice WWA and Ryton deacs which are nice. Although it’s never nice to irreparably put something beyond use, at least it can/could be done with the care and attention of a professional engineer and not just set to with a grinder and gas axe!
The only Charnood I kept was an early old spec MK2 Sten, beautifully engineered deac job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
I know what you're saying regards deacs, but here (as in most countries), firearms like the Sten have no other possible outlet.
Only scrapping.
I don't know if your L1 was the same, but mine had retained the piston, with the piston bands carefully ground off one side and the face slightly champhed in the same direction. That's attention to detail!
Much easier to simply remove it.
At the other end of the spectrum, I cosmetically rebuild an all matching L1A1 for someone a couple of years ago. A very tatty rifle that had been butcherd by some animal.
No machining done there, oh no, it was all done with a grinderet! Random slots cut along the barrel and the chamber assaulted with bird sh*t standard welding.
The gas tube had simply been cut off with the grinder either end.
In short, a sorry, lazy *** mess!
hi, I know this a common pic of Churchill , but the front grip modification interests me, did they ever use this mod in ww2 ?
horizontal for grip with pistol grip ?
Winston Churchills ammo standard
This 28 is an American rather than British contract gun but there were many unofficial forward pistol grip modifications carried out in the field. The only official pistol grip was the one supplied on the early guns.