Carbines and More... Detroit July 1967

Photographer: Tony Spina
National guardsman Gary Ciko of Hamtramck watches for snipers as buildings burn on Linwood Street, Detroit, Michigan.
Photographer's Note: "Bottles and rocks were being thrown from rooftops and windows. As I edged along the buildings to avoid flying debris, I captured this young National Guardsman's look and stance, so expressive of the event's tension and fear. This became my lead photograph for the story. It was used all over the world and was part of the entry that won the Pulitzer Prize for the Free Press."

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3preview-1.jpg

More in the next post...
CH-P777

---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

National Guardsmen are pinned down by sniper fire at the McGraw police station in Detroit's 6th precinct.
Courtesy Detroit News Collection.

http://reuther.wayne.edu/files/images/26016.preview.jpg

Next post to include link and 'Some' of the picture numbers of interest.

CH-P777

Police officers and National Guardsmen prepare to search an African American man under suspicion of looting carrying a concealed weapon (a knife in his back pocket), Detroit, Michigan.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6preview-1.jpg



On this link below, troll through the pictures. Pictures of interest listed start on page 3, but all pages are interesting:
26019 Tracked PC/MG and Carbine
26024 300% increased,shows I cut stock carried by GI in the street, with 2 GI's on his left
26028
35812 'Machine Gun' What Make?

LINK: Walter P. Reuther Library Detroit's 1967 Civil Unrest

My Father had a big job going in downtown at this time with a lot of heavy equipment there. We drove up to check on the equipment but was stopped at a check point. I was young but could remember seeing the smoke rise as we drove north to get there from our home in the Downriver area. After things settled down he found in a trash dumpster boxes of M1 carbine mags that had been thrown away. Later he found out a National Guard Unit had been stationed near there in a school and believed they had discarded them. We had tickets to see the Tigers play the Orioles, but that game was cancelled/rescheduled. We never went, it would have been my first time seeing them play. The next year-68 the Tigers won the series.
I've read where live ammo was taken away from the 82nd and 101 because of too many shooting incidents, blanks and tracers were issued instead.

CH-P777

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

I've read where live ammo was taken away from the 82nd and 101 because of too many shooting incidents, blanks and tracers were issued instead.

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It was because of the 'Over Reaction' by the National Guard that the decision was made not to supply (or limit) live ammo to the Airborne Units.
Here is a little more of what I found about the addition of the 82nd and 101st:

By late Sunday, looting had reached Mack Avenue on the East Side, roughly five miles from where it had started, moving Gov. George Romney to call in 400 state troopers and activate the Michigan National Guard. West of Woodward Avenue, from Highland Park to the Detroit River, 8,000 Guardsmen accompanied first responders and patrolled areas of turmoil. Though trained in handling weapons, they were unequipped to deal with urban conflict. The mostly white Guard overreacted to intense situations on the West Side, which led to needless casualties and death.
The intervention of the State Police and National Guard, as well as a curfew instituted between 9:00 p.m. and 5:30 a.m., were not enough to prevent the situation from escalating. On Monday, July 24, Gov. Romney requested federal troops, and soon members of the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions were stationed around Detroit’s East Side. Many of the men were familiar with intense combat situations from active duty in Vietnam. The fact that the East Side came under control much sooner than the West Side has been attributed to the soldiers’ experience in the field, their racial integration, and their lack of live ammunition.
As tanks rolled through the city and widespread food shortages took their toll, the chaos began to dissipate. Sniper fights, fires, and small outbursts of violence continued sporadically until July 27, when the conflict officially ended.

The End

The machineguns are M 60's Charlie.

.... and this was just a dress rehearsal. I went into the Army in January, 1968, made it through basic training then went to my assigned training station along the east coast. I was going to be a clerk typist in an interesting field and was waiting for my class to form up (hundreds of us doing whatever made work while waiting for different classes to form up). Then in March, Martin Luther King was assassinated and the urban CONUS went on fire... They took seven of us wannabe clerks into a room and said "you remember that job we were going to teach you?... You got it right now. We'll be training you later." That was my introduction into the place where all the intel reports were collected from around the country as the inner cities burned... We manned telex machines where we received reports coming out of every big city - often, after all police and fire had withdrawn from conflict zones and just allowed them to burn.... the place we worked was going 24-7 for about three months after the assassination.

It was one crazy year and I was there - long before Watergate and all the stuff that came later... I'm wondering whether anyone will write an accurate account of the country's response to those very real threats. It was an eye-opener for me at age 19, to be thrust into that world of unrest. We've never seen anything of that magnitude since, thank heavens. Army and marine armories were being raided - there were accounts of heavy machine gun fire coming out of a few inner cities... The country was being torn apart - but we survived....

I am originally from the west side of Detroit, Redford Township, and was in Nam when this happened. I didn't know anything about this, and returned in October. I went downtown the 1st morning to get some new tires on my car since I planed on doing some traveling while on leave. I was shocked at what I saw, and asked the guy at the tire shop about it. He looked at me odd, and said where in the hell have you been? I told him I had just returned from Nam the day prior, so he told me about it. He said something along the line of, "that explains it, since I had a bigger battle to deal with". He then put my new tires on, "At Cost", so I felt pretty good. I did not face any of the bad treatment that most of the guys received in 68, and latter.

I think Detroit has been in decline ever since then, but may be making a slow turn around in recent years.

Since the bankruptcy,
The BIG $$ is going in to The Downtown Development.
100's of miles of surrounding neighborhoods are left to decay.
Or being demo'd after being bought up by foreign money.

Precinct 9: 6.32 homicides per 10,000 people, it is the city’s most dangerous precinct.

These maps overlay reported crimes:
Where are Detroit's most dangerous police precincts? | MLive.com

If you head out to the outer surrounding suburbs, they are booming with new home builds.
Especially the southern and northwestern areas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Detroit July 1967

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Black day in July...I was across the border watching the black sky and light of the firs after dark. Cobo Hall stood as a huge black shape against the burned out city shell...long time ago.

I was a little kid on a farm in Kent Bridge, Ontario but remember it on the Detroit News every night. Little did I know that I'd be wearing the uniform of the 82nd Airborne just short of 20 years later!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

a farm in Kent Bridge

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I'm surprised you couldn't see the same things I did, I was just down by Leamington/Wheatley...

It's a ways east to Kent Road 15. As a happy little farm kid, I knew it was happening but didn't have a clue why nor did I care. Great memories of life there until age nine when my parents packed my sister, me, what was left of their belongings, our dog and south we went to the east coast of Florida. Talk about culture shock!!

I remember my third grade teacher at Indian Creek Road Elementary School was dating a draft dodger from the USA. We didn't really know what a draft dodger was as kids but we all knew it. You know how little kids are.

I was the other side of things, wondering why the black smoke on the horizon, thought it was closer. The flames caused a glow on the horizon at night...

I was born in Detroit, but, grew up in Royal Oak, Mich. (I belonged to a Detroit Boy Scout Troop and we use to go annually to Irnwagle Scout Camp on Lake Erie, near Leamington. I think it is a Provincial Park, now).

In 1967, I was a Freshman in college. During the Summer Break, I was working as a Mailer at the Detroit News and old Detroit Times buildings. I would drive to 8 Mile & Woodward Ave., park, take the DSR Bus to Grand Circus Park, and walk a few blocks to work. My family felt a bond to Detroit. We had lots of friends and family, who lived there, worked for the City and felt it safe. (Like any city, there were known areas to avoid).

On the Sunday, when the riots broke out, I was driving to Church and heard on the Radio about a disturbance after a "Police Raid on a Blind Pig". Later in the afternoon, I was watching a Movie on CKLW (Windsor TV Station). Announcements started being made for Michigan National Guard Units to report to the Light Guard Armory and Artillery Armory.

I received a telephone call, from the Mailer's Union Steward, warning me not to go to work on Monday, there was "Sniping from "Overpasses at Cars", and it was not safe to come in to the City. Men, who were working to put out the newspapers, were being kept at the workplaces.

The next day, (Monday), Radio reports, and T.V. News captivated the area. Word of mouth spread accurate information, as well as, rumors. I remember instructing my Mother and Sister on how to load and fire a break-action shotgun. There was an area wide evening curfew and restrictions on going into Detroit. Around 9pm, I was talking outside with neighbors, it was deathly quiet. Suddenly, there was a strange moaning noise. It was the 'lugged tires' of N.G. Military Vehicles on Woodward Ave. rolling into Detroit.

I was not able to go to work, until Thursday. I carpooled with a friend/co-worker. The City was unnaturally still. At lunch-time, we sat on the loading-dock eating sack lunches. The only street traffic, because it was so alien, seemed like Jeeps & Military Trucks with Guardsmen armed with Garands and M1 Carbines, with bayonets fixed.

Later in August, 1967, I was visiting relatives in Northern Michigan. The local National Guard Unit retuned 'Home', during that time, and there was a 'Parade'. It made me sad and confused. A lot of people were happy and celebrating, but, for me it was like 'being happy at a funeral'. This was not any kind of victory, but, a terrible loss.

I didn't ride the Bus to work anymore. I drove in the Safety of my car. A lot of People gave up hope that Detroit was 'improving', or ever going to improve, and sold their homes for 25 cents on the Dollar.

Maybe Detroit is on the rebound. It is so geographically blessed that there will always be a major city, there. But, 50 years of stumbling, pain, and lack of progress for many, for what?

I don't care for the Revisionist terms and rationalizations: "Rebellion", "Revolt", "Protest", "Revolution". It was a RIOT, hurt many, and killed Trust. The 'Social Fabric' is a tricky thing. - IMHO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

Irnwagle Scout Camp

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Never heard of it, closed for sure. If you knew more I could pinpoint it, I know the area well...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

8 Mile

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A less than stellar area now...

I suspect the "Irnwagle Scout Camp" (my spelling could be off) may have been incorporated into the Wheatley Provincial Park.

It did exist in the early 1960's and was a primitive camp. I was there a couple of times, around 1961-62, and we camped on a bluff with the beach on Lake Erie below.

I can remember waking up to the sound of commercial fishing boats going out on Lake Erie.

One of our leaders went into town and brought back a ton of Smelt for us to cook up.

I remember 'The Big Tomato' information booth in Leamington being a landmark on the way!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

the Wheatley Provincial Park.

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Makes sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

we camped on a bluff with the beach on Lake Erie below.

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That too, not quite all the way into Pelee point...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

'The Big Tomato'

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Always a good hold card for anyone that says they're from the area..."What's the most recognized landmark in Leamington?" Answer, "The big tomato"...advance one and be recognized...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

there were known areas to avoid

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Cass Corridor rings a bell.

I always enjoyed our family get togethers out on Belle Isle Park which I believe is over 900 acres. They still have the Aquarium there and the Maritime museum. The island has 3 interior lakes. I still often fish my way from near Monroe (Raisin river mouth) or Gibraltar (Huron river mouth) and head up river or out on to Lake Erie depending on the time of year. Great thing about fishing here is you never know what you may catch, Walleye, Muskie, Tiger Muskie, Pike, Large and Smallmouth Bass, Sheephead, Gar,Yellow and White perch, Channel, Blue, Flathead, Bullhead and other Catfish. All types of Pan fish plus Rock Bass near 19-20" (I swear !) My favorites because of sheer numbers, after winter ice clears in early April/May weather, and ease of catching when you have young ones with you have to be the what us 'Downriver locals' call White Bass or Silver Bass, also often called Striped Bass. Were times where 4 of us in one boat could catch over 100 apiece.

Anyone remember Boblo Island ?
That would be my 1st trip to Canada.
Carbine forum..... So I'll stop here, but I recall almost being arrested while pulling ashore on a small Island to 'relieve' my bladder, when a Official came out from the bush. He didn't care for my 'Actions' while on Canadian soil. I was fined for EACH fish in the live well because of not having a Canadian license.... Don't recall how much but it was very pricey, IIRC it was near $700+, I was lucky he took a Credit Card.

A Good Weekend To All... Veterans Day soon.

Charlie-Painter777

P.S. Don't forget the Detroit Zoo (still very nice) and the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village, My Mother in Law is a top contributor there. VIP service when we visit.

We have an 'Aunt Nora' in our family, who is of Armenian descent and was born in Detroit. Her family members were victims of Turkish atrocities in the "first holocaust", during WW-I, in the Ottoman Empire.

Following the War, Nora's widowed Grandmother fled Turkey with four young children. They went to Canada because the immigration policy was more accepting than in the U.S.A. and the Grandmother had a Cousin there.

However, she wished to go to Detroit, because she had a Brother, who lived there and had immigrated before the War.

One nice Summer day, Aunt Nora's Grandmother, (future) father and his siblings went to Boblo Island from Amherstburg, Ont. They got on a Detroit bound, return boat, only to be stopped at the Detroit Dock by a Policeman.

The Detroit Cop put the family back on a Boblo bound boat, while quietly telling the mother, "next time don't wear the Babushka".

Two weeks later, the Evarian Family repeated the process (without Babushka) and quietly became Detroiters!

(p.s. - The Detroit Zoo is actually at 10 Mile Rd., tucked between Royal Oak, Huntington Woods, and Pleasant Ridge. I grew up a mile from there. Belle Isle (Hog Island) is now a Michigan State Park, which is a good thing).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

The Detroit Zoo is actually at 10 Mile Rd

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Yes, A classmate is on the board there.

We used to catch the Boblo boat at the park in Wyandotte, at the park just south of the old Wyandotte general hospital.
My Aunt lived on 1st street, walking distance for us little guys. We'd spend the day fishing, eating ice cream or playing ball. I remember they'd shut down River Street (?) and have a big block party, street sales.... sorta like a small scale carnival every summer.. very early 60's.

And Belle Isle now being run by the State park service vs the city of Detroit...... well... goes without saying.

I got a little curious after posting about the RIOTS and seeing the links about the DPD Carbines. Looks like the DPD may have very well started getting these carbines at and just after the riots. Getting late now.... And I know there are plenty more posts, I'll look later Saturday, suppose to be a WET weekend..... but here's 1 link:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=55088

Good Evening,
Charlie-Painter777

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Anyone remember Boblo Island ?

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Of course I do...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Carbine forum..... So I'll stop here

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Yes, you're right...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

the Henry Ford Museum

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Saw a beautiful Gatling gun there when I was just a kid...never forget...

We had the riots several times in Chicago, as well. The worst was 1968 in Chicago, when MLK Jr. was killed. I was a sophomore in High School, and had a 45 minute CTA transit bus ride home (it was a private Catholic school). Shortly after they announced it, the city erupted, and they sent us all home, requiring us to go in large groups. We went through some black neighborhoods, and had stuff thrown at the bus. We were pretty scared.

The next day I saw National Guard troops and armored cars, and even one tank, driving down the streets of Chicago. The main weapons I noticed were M1 carbine and Garands, all with bayonets fixed. I knew the carbines well because my cousin was a US Postal Inspector, and had one for a "trunk gun" that he had let me shoot several times from the time I was 12 or 13.

Something broke inside of me that day. I was 16, and I never had the innocence of being a kid after that.

I looked through the pics in the link Painter provided. Picture 26046 shows Police with lever action rifles. My question is, would they have been stamped in the stocks like other police weapons?

Best Regards.....Frank

Double posted?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankderrico

Picture 26046 shows Police with lever action rifles.

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In some cases these firearms were requisitioned...at the time. Anything held in store would be marked, I'm quite certain. I've seen Mod '94 Winchesters used by police here that were marked, also Mod '70s, FNs...

As a kid growing up in Chicago, we had neighbors that were cops. One down the block carried a personal 1894 Winchester 30-30 in his trunk. It was his deer hunting rifle. My cousin the Postal Inspector carried an NRA/DCM M1 Carbine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

After things settled down he found in a trash dumpster boxes of M1 carbine mags that had been thrown away. Later he found out a National Guard Unit had been stationed near there in a school and believed they had discarded them.

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The 'He' above refers to my Father when he was allowed in to the area after things started settling down to check on his Dozers,Excavators.. etc.

He said that dumpster looked as though the assorted magazines had been dumped in like from a loader bucket. He had said there were other things like smoke smelling National Guard helmets, full and empty K ration boxes, small canvas bivy tents..etc All kinds of odds and ends but most smelled from burned debris that had also been dumped in.

I've read reports that the National Guard confiscated guns and ammo from local stores that sold them.

Here is part of a statement from Richard Crabb, the owner of The Busy Bee Hardware. Below it a link to the story.

"Busy Bee sold Thompson machine guns — the same weapons Eastern Market store owners armed themselves with. When the Crabbs arrived at the store, a group of national guardsmen emptied out all their guns and confiscated the ammunition.
They did return the inventory after things settled, but not all of it."

Story Link: Looting, fires and fright: Shop owners remember 1967

My Father said there were numerous types of magazines, but that he sifted through and grabbed the Carbine mags as they were the only ones of use to him. I'm sure over the years he sold/swapped and traded most of them away. Are the ones I have that were with his Carbines any of these? I can't say for sure. Were these from local shops or discarded by the Nat Guard..... Can't answer that either. But according to him there was a lot of good gear there that had been buried over with debris.

Charlie-Painter777

There was a small zoo on either Boblo or Belle Isle, as I remember? The giant slide was memorable too. Oh, and the pleasure boaters mooning the Boblo ferry...:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

We had the riots several times in Chicago, as well. The worst was 1968 in Chicago, when MLK Jr. was killed. I was a sophomore in High School, and had a 45 minute CTA transit bus ride home (it was a private Catholic school). Shortly after they announced it, the city erupted, and they sent us all home, requiring us to go in large groups. We went through some black neighborhoods, and had stuff thrown at the bus. We were pretty scared.

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While living in Detroit in the early 1980s we would ride down to the RenCen are for festivals, parades and such. More than once coming back at night, rocks and bricks would hit the windows of the bus windows. It felt like Escape From New York.They were all thick plastic for a reason. Don't remember many stories of the riots from relatives who still live there for some reason.

I had already been drafted and gone to VN, got out and went back to work when MLK was shot. I have a close friend that was in sheet metal and he made a fortune repairing riot damage in both LA and Detroit. He'd be back there for 6 months at a whack, making $5+ an hour.
I'll say this: people were getting knocked off on a regular basis, Both Kennedys. King, and then the Black Panthers, Zodiac killer and Son of Sam. I kept a loaded .380 in my van at all times, and I wasn't easily frightened. Nobody was happy with what was going on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tenOC

More than once coming back at night, rocks and bricks would hit the windows

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That's still happening in the area, just a few weeks ago 5 teens charged with murder:
Teens charged with murder in highway rock incident

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

people were getting knocked off on a regular basis, Both Kennedys. King, and then the Black Panthers, Zodiac killer and Son of Sam.

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All kinds of great role models back in the day. No different than todays 'Entertainers' mocking violence in their.... I'll reluctantly call music.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ne3grgif-1.jpg

The Henry Ford Museum - Greenfield Village (in Dearborn, Michigan) use to have a "Muzzle-Loaders Festival". This event went on for over 35 years, (probably 1950's to late 1980's) and featured competitive live firing of round ball rifles, C.W. rifled-muskets and carbines, and demonstration firing of Mike Yeck's, privately owned, .45-70 cal. Gatling Gun.

The Weekend Event was held on a large depressed activities field. The backstop was the Village's railway embankment that ran across the north edge of the field. (They did stop the Steam Train during relays)! The bullet drop area was open fields between the Village and Michigan Avenue. Development stopped this popular, crowd pleasing, live shooting event.

The Saturday shooting was individual matches that accommodated Buckskinners and CW. shooters. The Sunday shooting was a North-South Skirmish Association C.W. Match. The whole show was great public relations for primitive shooting sports.

During some of the Revolutionary War Bi-Centennial years, G.F.V. also held an "18th Century Colonial Muster". This started in 1974 and carried in to the 1980's. It featured extensive camps of American, British and Loyalist re-enactment units, limited live firing displays of muskets, flint-lock rifles, and M.L. Cannon. There was also a mock battle on the activities field.

Municipalities and Historical Museums & Sites use to actively support and request quality historic military displays and demonstrations. Schools use to invite knowledgeable uniformed historians with historic arms into the classroom. I guess a lot has changed!

I had the pleasure of participating in C.W. Skirmishing for seven years and Revolutionary War re-enacting, mock battles, camp displays, and 'fire-lock' matches for nine years.

Last muzzleloader festival was in 1988. I won the uniform competition in 1987, my brother won it in 1988. It was a great event, we had loads of fun. Mike Yeck would bring his Gatling guns out and shoot a hanging picket fence target(inch wide hanging planks).
Mike Yeck owned a range in south central mi. that during the winter we would shoot m1 carbines at hanging clay pigeons and other frangible targets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

Schools use to invite knowledgeable uniformed historians with historic arms into the classroom. I guess a lot has changed!
.

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I can remember my elementary school having a Civil War reenactor come in to demonstrate the loading and firing of a muzzleloader (along with passing out hardtack and some other fun things) out in the recess field behind the school. And I ain’t that old. Couldn’t imagine that ever happening today. Times changed quick!

Funny thing, in those days all those people were getting shot and nobody was being made a martyr. It was just too bad and life resumed the next day. Probably everyone had lost someone in the Korean war or WW2.

Stalin explained it better "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

That was before 24 hour multiple news loops with opinions from the left, right and paid contributing commentators. Add also the internet and all the other social media BS. These events now saturate all for weeks or months to come until the next high dollar headline/event moves on to a new story.

And they wonder why we have so many 'Copy Cat' events now days. I believe todays Texas Church shooting will probably fall in to this category.
A mad man trying to out do the Las Vegas shooting. More than likely this guy set glued to the coverage of the Vegas shooting for weeks. All the while planning where could he go gun down and slaughter innocent people...... that he knew at the time weren't in the position to protect themselves. No surprise really, when we live in a time that someone like Bowe Bergdahl walks with no prison time, just a Dishonorable.

Time to grab a rope and get back to picnic basket wielding crowds that came to town for a Public Hanging !

JMHO,
Ch-P777

Sorry I joined this thread late. We had the same riots here in Newark, NJ in the 1960's. As being related to carbines, during the riot, rioters broke into the Plainfield Machine Company and stole carbines and ammunition. Plainfield Machine Company was manufacturing Carbines for the police and had a large contract for the Vietnamese police. The National Guard and police searched many homes in Newark looking for the weapons often trashing the homes and never did find them. This incident left a bad taste in the mouth of the NJSP and Attorney General's office as they made sure the M1 Carbine was on the NJ Assualt Weapons Ban list by name. Newark has never fully recovered from the riots. I had to work in Newark, NJ and the place is like a demilitarize zone.

We are talking 50 years with little healing or building of trust.

A faction of politicians, civic & religous "leaders", and community organizers, exploit and profit from the social and racial animosity and divide (and behave in ways to keep it going).

I thought Rodney King said it best: "Can't we just get along".

IMHO - Rioting never built anything. It kills communication, trust, opportunity, ruins lives, takes lives, ruins the quality of life and the chance for progress.

I did Civil War reenacting from about 2004 to 2011, when I had my first minor stroke. Decided running around in summer in wool uniforms was not a good idea after that!

When I first joined SASS in 1994, I would do Old west Living History demonstrations at schools using blanks. By 2012, they would not let us even use blanks or bring guns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

By 2012, they would not let us even use blanks or bring guns.

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There ya go. My memory of it would’ve been sometime around ‘99. Something like that.

The riot was just the start.....

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f8aee3aa-1.jpg

The 'FIX' was the worse to come for the future of Detroit.... Mayor Coleman Young

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...791f8c7b-1.jpg

Detroit is still trying to recover from Coleman Young

Hard to believe, but after Coleman Young... It did get worse under Kwame M. Kilpatrick ,voted in at age 31.
The city’s imprisoned former mayor, Kwame M. Kilpatrick, and two top aides rigged contracts, collected millions of dollars in bribes and defrauded taxpayers. The federal government set out a 38-count indictment that characterizes Mr. Kilpatrick’s inner circle as a long-running criminal organization.

Currently serving 28 years in prison, he was convicted of over two dozen counts that included charges of racketeering and extortion, adding his name to a list of at least 18 city officials who have been convicted of corruption during his tenure. His punishment ranks among the harshest major state and local public corruption cases. He was thought to of pocketed over $25 million dollars as he helped run Detroit to financial ruin. Known as 'The Hip Hop Mayor' with a taste for custom tailored attire that ran in to the thousands for a suit.

The government said Kilpatrick also tapped a nonprofit fund, which was created to help distressed Detroit residents, to pay for yoga, camps for his kids, golf clubs and travel.
Ordered to pay back $1.2 million restitution, Kilpatrick stood in front of a judge and claimed he could only afford to pay back $6 per month.

Bankruptcy was the only option for Detroit ........... :sos:
Retirement pensions had been ravaged for most all that retired from any City run pension plans.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ICKjumbo-1.jpg

From the book:
M1 Carbines
Leroy Thompson

Google Book... Once on Link... Scroll up to start on Page 64, then on down to 65... you'll see what I mean.

Be sure to read about the railroad yard thief shot with the Tracer Round in the Chest :lol:

The M1 Carbine - Leroy Thompson - Google Books

Charlie-Painter777

East St. Louis is still not a place you want to get turned around in. I went over there for a party one night with another buddy of mine. We stopped to pick up a case of Bud Light to take with us just over the MLK bridge. It was 9:30 or so at night and (us being quite white) the clerk says to us, “so, uh, where are you guys from?” Haha. I think he may have been concerned for our safety.
Fun party, by the way. Good food. Had no troubles at all. There’s good people everywhere.

Detroit has a Mayoral Election today. The popular and seemingly competent incumbent, Mike Duggan, is being challenged by Coleman Young, Jr.

The challenger is a minister, who seems to be running on his family name and race. He sounds like a cabbage to me.

I hope Detroit Voters decide on the better candidate.

Still, my sister visits the city regularly to attend the casino and has never had issues. Since we grew up in sight of it and listened to all of the issues past, I'm sure she stays clear of any problem areas.

ALL large cities in the Midwest, Chicago, Detroit, St Louis, etc. are riddled with graft and corruption. A friend who was Chicago PD had to buy his Sgts. stripes by "donating" a couple thousand dollars to a local alderman. When I was growing up there in Chicago in the 50s and 60s, my uncle Gene was an enforcer for, and very close friend of Mayor Richard J. Daly. It was his job to go out and make sure people did not disagree too much with the mayor, or if they did, get them to change their minds. It was very much an Irish & Democratic mob. If you needed a pot hole fixed in the street in front of your house, you visited the local Alderman and "donated" to his campaign fund. The trucks would be there within a day or two fixing it,

It was also understood I could have had any city job I wanted, just call uncle Gene. I once talked to him about being a cop, and he said I would be supplied test scores and an academy date. I decided it wasn't for me... being a cop wasn't the problem but rather being a political appointee bothered me even then. I was a taxi driver in Chicago when I was 18, and never got a ticket, despite my driving antics. Why? - because I kept a $20 bill stuck to the back of my license with rubber cement. I get stopped, hand over license, $20 is deftly scraped off the back, and I got license back. When I moved to California at 20, the first thing my wife said was "Don't even try to bribe a cop here!"

A Nasty account about a recruited by the FBI teenage informant used to get inside the Underworld during Coleman Seniors' years.
A statement from COLEMAN..... the self-proclaimed “head mother****er in charge” for 20 years.

Story link: https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-coc...g-crooked-cops

As for Coleman Young II or Jr...... He said he was present, on scene as a witness to a recent SWAT Raid for a Suspected Murder Suspect ..... Saying "This is white supremacy and it has to stop,"
One problem though.... He wasn't there until he set up a photo op.

Read Here: Coleman Young II decries suburban police raid in Detroit


Did manage to find this picture while looking for Police use of Carbines, though listed as Police, I believe this is a GI, But I'm not sure (?)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eight375-1.jpg

That's a laugh! The son of a convicted racketeer bitching about the cops. It's funny how people (on both sides) seem to stir up racial hatred in order to gain power. When I was an investigator on Fort Ord 76-77, I had occasion to do personal security for Martin Luther King Sr. (MLK's daddy) when he came on base. At that point, the Army was fully integrated, and it was equal opportunity for all. We had no racial issues or unrest on post. Blacks and whites worked together, partied together, and in general got along very well. After Senior's speech in the main post chapel, suddenly we had racial unrest. I'm just sayin'...

There's hope for Detroit. Current Mayor Duggan won re-election, overwhelmingly. 72% of the voters saw through Coleman Junior and his racial 'word salad'.

We are bordering political issues verses carbines. This is not the place to debate politics.

So, back on topic. When I first got into law enforcement in the 70s, M1 carbines we VERY popular. In the 1980s, I carried one as a trunk weapon before I got my Sterling AR180, then went back to the Carbine after I foolishly sold the 180 since it was NOT an AR15 (how stupid was that. I now realize the Ar180 is a better weapon than the AR15). For much of the time until retiring around 2000, the M1 carbine was my go-to gun.

There were a number of other officers that also used M1 carbines. They were actually more popular than the Mini-14s, which at the time had dismal accuracy compared to my carbine. One Sgt. had an Alpine, and another deputy had a National Ordnance. I had an Underwood at that time.

Some years back I bought the book.... "Tales Of The Stake Out Squad" (SOS) A book about the career of Jim Cirillo's time spent on a special NYPD Unit.
His favorite rifle.... The M1 Carbine.

I posted about it in the Auction, Gossip section... because the book is on sale/ discounted. A really good book about a Special Operations Squad. And their love of the Carbine.

Here's a link to my post #6, that includes links to the Book site..

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post417029

Posts 1 an 2 show carbines with no magazines. Single shots or just wooden handled speers?

Bill,
Read Post 3

Cheers
Charlie-P777

Thanks Charlie. I did read that but I only saw no or limited ammo not magazines. Nothing says I can't fight back like a magazine fed weapon without the magazine. ;)

As far as rarely seeing a pictured magazine, I've only come across a few pictures very early in this showing the Nat Guard with a mag. It was stated the NG didn't have the training in civil/urban conflicts like this and were said to have been a little to rambunctious, thus causing issues for the 101st and 82nd airborne units that were called in later. Or maybe just another case much like today where legal authorities are called in with their hands tied...... then scrutinized under a microscope.

Were they ordered to dispose of their mags? I don't know.
But I believe that 'May' be a possibility and part of the reason my Father found all of those Carbine mags (among other types) buried under debris in a dumpster, near his parked equipment at the job site he was working. Can't prove it, but may be.
Might also help explain the frightened look on many of these service men in the pictures.... them knowing they had no ammo or maybe just a single round loaded like ole Barney Fife (sp?)

Charlie-Painter777


PS Would be interesting to hear from a Nat Guard or Airborne member who may have been there. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing of a book by one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Were they ordered to dispose of their mags? I don't know.
my Father found all of those Carbine mags (among other types) buried under debris in a dumpster,

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I don't think so...when I was training in Ft Lewis WA some years back...1989 I think...we had occasion to chat with a U.S. soldier that came into our stores...I asked him if he had any extra .45 mags with them. He said they were doing range qual with M16s and was dropping off aluminum mags to our CQ. They only had the mags that came with the pistols, no extras. They had done that qual a month before. The extra mags they had with them that trip, they'd tossed by the crate into the local dumpsters rather than take them back...

I think what your dad found was after action sanitizing and accounting. Nothing magic...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I think what your dad found was after action sanitizing and accounting.

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Thx Jim,
That makes for the best explanation to me. As there was a lot of 'Camp garbage included' in that dumpster.
As I described in a earlier post... smoky helmets, empty packaging etc.

CH-P777

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

...It was stated the NG didn't have the training in civil/urban conflicts like this and were said to have been a little to rambunctious...

Charlie-Painter777

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And the Kent State shootout occurred just a few years later...

Russ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RASelkirk

And the Kent State shootout occurred just a few years later...

Russ

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Exactly Russ, Along with other nation wide outbreaks in big cities on the edge. No pressure... Huh ? Jeeezzee

CH-P777