No. 4 Mk1* ammo

I'm sure this has been answered before, but my google fu is weak and I can't find it.

I have a new Savage made Lee Enfield No4 MK1*. I want to shoot it and I need advice on what ammo to use. When I get an old military gun, there are usually 3 considerations when it comes to ammo. Historically accurate, safe to shoot, and availability (I don't handload).

Looking into the 303 ammo specs, it appears what i want is a 303 MK7 only without the cordite propellant. Also the MK7 had either aluminum or plastic in the core, and I'm not sure anyone actually makes bullets like that anymore. SO not really a MK7, but something that mimics it.

In my searching I found warnings about using MK8 ammo as it was hotter and intended for machine guns. Apparently if it was used in rifles that had used the MK7 ammo with cordite, there were problems with ruining the barrel.

I don't know how to tell if the cordite ammo was used in my rifle. So what commercial loads should I use to most closely mimic the MK7? MK7 was 174 grain, so I picked up some 174 grain PPU ammo, but unless it's made with the same bullet construction it might not have the same characteristics. While the MK8 had 175-190 grain bullets, I don't think the bullet weight is the deciding factor in whether it's safe to shoot in my gun. I haven't looked online yet, but the boxes of ammo I have now don't list velocities or chamber pressures.

Anyway, here's the ammo I have on hand now (picked up from the gun show last month).

PPU 174 gr FMJ BT
PPU 150 gr SP BT
Sellier and Bellot 180 gr FMJ

Any comments or help will be appreciated.

The PPU 174 Gr is the one to for, whilst you say you don't reload this brass is very good for that purpose. The Sellier & Bellot brass by comparison isn't so good and usually scrapped by many of us.
There will be many opinions regarding the quality of both types of ammunition, I think it's fair to say that over the years the quality of both has been variable.

The ammo you listed is all good modern ammo. The PPU174 is the closest to Mk7. The S&B is also good ammo but its a bit under powered but it shoots consistently.

There is no practical way of telling what ammo was used in the gun in the past. Just clean it properly and test out some ammo to see what the rifle likes.
The comment on cordite then Z causing barrel damage refers to the different way the propellant etches the throat of the barrel. Z will quickly eat away metal made brittle by cordite. Mk8z was ammo made to extend the range of the vickers to try and keep up with 7.62 nato. It has a 180g boat tail bullet. I have shot thousands of the Mk8z from various No4's and have had no problems.(ymmv). I have not seen any available for years. The last offering of Mk8z I was able to get was head stamp NNY 81. ( NNY is PPU )

As the poster above stated. The brass is reloadable so keep it and if you dont reload you will be able to sell those empty cases to a reloader.

The only difference between nitro loaded Mk.7z and Mk.8z is the projectile. The Mk.7z is a 174 grain flat base and Mk.8z a 175 grain boat tail projectile which was intended for machine guns but isn't any more powerful or dangerous to shoot in rifles. The Mk.8z doesn't perform well in rifles that have had a steady diet of cordite loaded Mk.7. The cordite burns very hot and the wear pattern produced in the throat or leade of the barrel is the culprit. Lets face it, the majority of wartime produced, well used SMLE and No.4's have all seen a steady diet of cordite Mk.7. The only way you'll find out if the PPU which is Mk.8z spec will perform is by trying it. If it's keyholing at 100 yards, you'll need to find some Mk.7z with flat base projectiles. I've said a hundred times on this forum that I wish someone like Winchester or Remington would produce a Mk.7z equivalent for vintage Enfield rifle shooters. I think they're missing the boat on an opportunity to sell a lot of ammo if priced reasonably. That would solve many problems for folks using well used but in spec Lee Enfield rifles. Other than that, you really need to consider handloading using projectiles like the Sierra 180 grain flat base Pro Hunter which has been my favorite for 30 years or the equivalent made by other manufacturers.

Thanks for the quick responses. Shame to hear no one loads a good copy of the MK7 anymore. Since the bolt wouldn't close on the field gauge (and the no-go gauge should be here monday), it sounds like safety isn't an issue, so shooting well is my next concern. Bore life won't be a problem because I won't be shooting more than 20 rounds of any ammo that keyholes. Plus, my bore might already be shot. Without a good borescope the only way to tell is to visit the range.

Did i get all that right?

You only need an .064 Go and .074 No-Go gauge to check headspace. All other .303 gauges are irrelevant. There's Indian .303 Mk.7 available at Old Western Scrounger/Navy Arms Co.. Don't be afraid of it if it's clean and reliable. I tested Mk.7 and Mk.7z from various manufacturers and nations several years ago and all of the clean, well stored cartridges were accurate and consistent right down to point of impact. The various rounds were dated 1942-1962 if memory serves. I've been going to buy some of the Indian fodder to try but haven't got around to it yet. Has anyone else purchased and tried it?

Myself and another member are trying some loading experiments to try and mimic as close as possible the MKVII trajectory utilizing modern components so it marries up to the sight ladders of the 303's we all use (Hopefully) I am going away for a while so my data will not be available till at least the end of Feb early March 2018 as in January we get 43 Celsius + temps here and I ain't laying out in that heat firing off the crackers.

10-12 years ago I was using 1967 vintage P.O.F it was a PITA to use fired about 200 rounds as I had no reloading gear for my only 303 (at that stage) with hangfires spurious ignition great clouds of smoke & crud coming out the muzzle so much so we all thought I was using a black powder rifle instead of a MKIII nope I found it about as good as an ash tray on a motor bike doing 100mph.
Should have pulled the projies and kept them rather than sling it down range groups were like I stood there with a handful of wheat and threw that at the target nope not for me Brian you may fare better than I but the stuff I got was pure $hite although I did get the wooden box and tin from the gunshop after they sold it all to other poor sods.

When I bought my Savage Mk 1* I heard all sorts of things about boat tail bullets being inacqurate in 3 groove rifle s. Nonsense. My rifle is spot on up to 6ooyards with PPU and S&B boat tail ammo and with me home loads. Shoot and enjoy.

I find the PPU and S&B ammo good in my three Lee Enfields and when reloading the S&B 174 boat tails are also OK. A lot is down to luck in some rifles are really fussy about what they will shoot well and others can handle a variety of ammo. If you do not reload see if anyone in your club who shoots well reloads and is prepared to sell you ammo.

Originally Posted by Stanforth:
When I bought my Savage Mk 1* I heard all sorts of things about boat tail bullets being inacqurate in 3 groove rifle s. Nonsense. My rifle is spot on up to 6ooyards with PPU and S&B boat tail ammo and with me home loads. Shoot and enjoy.

I should have said 2 groove rifling. :slap:

There's nothing wrong with 2 groove barrels. If they were inferior in any way, they wouldn't have been adopted.

Originally Posted by Robert303:
. If you do not reload see if anyone in your club who shoots well reloads and is prepared to sell you ammo.

I hate to tell you this but, in the UK, selling reloads is illeagal.

Buying another persons reloads, no way known no matter how good a mate or reloader they are would I ever buy someone else's reloads to fire from one of my rifles...............

Originally Posted by Brian Dick:
You only need an .064 Go and .074 No-Go gauge to check headspace.

This is interesting. The stuff I read says all you need is the field gauge to determine if it's safe to shoot. They say the go and no-go gauges are more for armorers who are actually adjusting the headspace. The instructions I read for the no-go gauge even say that if it closes on the no-go, it's still safe to shoot if it doesn't close on the field gauge. Any thoughts on that?

The .064 and .074 are the only gauges relevant to the Lee Enfield rifle. The Field gauge doesn't exist in British and Commonwealth circles. American SAAMI specs are .064, .067 and .070 or .071 depending on which manufacture gauges you buy. This is where the mass confusion is. That's wonderful for fitting/chambering new barrels on sporters but useless for checking/fitting original military surplus barrels. The Go gauge is the same but the Field gauges are too tight. There was a looser emergency use specification out to .084 I think so these rifles are very safe. If it doesn't close on the .074 it's in spec and plenty safe to shoot. I haven't got a clue what "stuff" you're reading since British and Commonwealth Armourers only used the two gauges as shown.

I bought Forster gauges. I can't find the actual lengths online, but they do claim to use SAAMI specs. The action didn't close completely on either the field or no-go, so it sounds like it's well within spec. The stuff I read probably came from the instructions included with the forster gauges. They say if it closes on the nogo it is still safe to shoot if it doesn't close on the field. I can see now the no-go gauge was a bad buy. I should have either saved the money or gotten a go gauge.

Or, you know, looked harder and found some that used the british specs.

I shoot Privi than reload it. 39 grains H4895 over a Sierra 174 BT. My No 4s shoot it well, the No 1s...not so much. I scrounge improperly stored surpluses 303 on the cheap, pull the bullets and reload them for the No1s in Privi brass. Allot of the coffee can garage stored ammo can be had for free but it's drying up.

Hoss, If it won't close on an SAAMI No-Go or Field gauge, it's tight as can be and probably good forever. Shoot and enjoy it.

P246, Try some Sierra 180 grain Pro Hunter FB projectiles next time you reload for your SMLE. They should work perfectly. They will out perform the SMK in most well used Lees and they are a little bit cheaper.

Have fired countless PPU and found it to be more than acceptable. I reload it and all my other .303 cases using a couple different powders (Varget--H4895) and Sierra 174gr BT's with no issues on accuracy.

Consider getting into reloading, it is a great way to enjoy the sport even more.

Originally Posted by enfield303t:
Have fired countless PPU and found it to be more than acceptable. I reload it and all my other .303 cases using a couple different powders (Varget--H4895) and Sierra 174gr BT's with no issues on accuracy.

Consider getting into reloading, it is a great way to enjoy the sport even more.

I have two hobbies. Shooting and reloading. The more I do of one the more I can do of the other.

Hoss #17 there is no length really for the gauges as the 303 headspaces on the rim of the cartridge once you have fire formed the brass (For that particular 303 rifle) you should only have neck size them and after 3-4 reloads FLS them but always try an empty case after neck sizing to ensure the shoulder has not moved forward to much making it hard to chamber although keep an eye on the case lengths they do stretch a bit measure them each time.