Ross 1905 Commercial Find

Picked up what I think is a 1905 MKII Commercial rifle. There are no military cartouches on stock or receiver. Has the bayo lug and is fully stocked. Just a SN # on left side on the barrel, not receiver. It's got a weird trigger guard looking as if it once had a "small" clip drop hole, blocked off, where it would drop out the bottom like a Styr M95.

Really wondering why they made it with a weird bottom and a 1/4" hole down there. My trigger guard does not have the floor plate hold down in front of the trigger. "Unfortunately," thru my research, my 1905 has a commercial base, on the receiver, for a 1910 rear sight. This makes my 1905 rear sight not fold down all the way. It's also missing the "v" blade. Gotta find a 1910 sight somewhere. I've looked all over the web and can't find one.

The bore is very good and should be a nice shooter. The muzzle end has a straight cut style and not a military type of crown. The stock is really nice and has no cracks in it. I used some Birchwood Casey stock sheen conditioner to clean up all the years of greasy handling. The bolt also had years of hard grease and sticking. I disassembled the bolt and cleaned everything. (That was a learning process.) Cleaned receiver and lubed everything. It really functions very smooth now.

You have a commercial II** target rifle. That rear sight and mounting bridge are correct for the type. Note that the rifle never had a rear sight on the barrel. Various aperture sights were used; a Mk. III sight would fit but would not be any more correct than what you have now - and probably would not be as good for range use. The II** rifles did not have the magazine cut off that other Mk. II rifles had.
The stock is Italian walnut. If you disassemble the rifle you will probably find traces of the soot that was used as a transfer agent when the rifle was hand assembled.
If the bore is decent, the rifle should shoot really well.

Problem is that I don't have a "V" blade on the slider. Kinda irritating that the ladder won't lay flat. I "could" mill off the top of the sight base and all would be good but then it would be modified for the 1905 sight only. Possible to make a "V" blade and affix it to the slider also. Still rather have a 1910 sight to fit base.

Should be easy enough to get a Mk. III rear sight. If you could find a BSA Martin, that would be vastly superior.
Why do you want a "V" aperture for the rear sight? They don't work well that close to the eye.

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

Should be easy enough to get a Mk. III rear sight. If you could find a BSA Martin, that would be vastly superior.
Why do you want a "V" aperture for the rear sight? They don't work well that close to the eye.

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I guess to make the sight a "complete" and proper sight. I'll look into a Martin sight. I do have a spare 1903-A3 sight that would mod up pretty good.

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

Should be easy enough to get a Mk. III rear sight. If you could find a BSA Martin, that would be vastly superior.
Why do you want a "V" aperture for the rear sight? They don't work well that close to the eye.

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You photo is a bit blurred, but I think that the sight on your rifle is a Pilblad Mk. V sight. Fine elevation and windage adjustments. It never had a V notch battle sight. There should be a notch just above the aperture; the sight would always be used in the vertical position.
A Mk. III service sight would be a direct replacement, and would require no alterations.
If you wish to adapt a different sight, please alter the sight, not the rifle. You have a fine, not very common target rifle.

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

A Mk. III service sight would be a direct replacement, and would require no alterations.
If you wish to adapt a different sight, please alter the sight, not the rifle. You have a fine, not very common target rifle.

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Good advice and I won't alter the base. Your correct about the notch above the aperture. Don't know how to read the sight though. The numbers are so small, my old eyes, and I don't see a pointer where the adjustment should be. Seems though that a v that high was made for long range targets. I probably don't shoot anything further than a hundred yards. Thanks

Studied more photos. Some Pilblad sights had a battle sight v notch on the crossbar above the aperture plate. Thing with Rosses is that there are many, many variations. It has been said that Sir Charles never made the same rifle twice.
The calibrations on the right vertical are ranges in yards; on the left, minutes of angle.
If you zero at 100y, make a note of the minutes setting on the left side. There should be a reference mark on the aperture plate. The right calibrations in yards may be useful starting points, but that is about it.
Once you have that, it is easy to add the necessary elevation for longer ranges, starting with a ballistics table in minutes of angle.
When I shot Target Rifle, I would wear two pair of glasses. Shooting glasses plus a pair of small lens reading glasses so I could read the sight scales. I saw other shooters on the mound with a magnifying glass. There is a bit of a learning curve to using a sight with moa scales on elevation and windage.
That rifle would have been shot in competition to at least 900 yards.

I had ordered "Sir Charles Ross & His Rifle" and it came in the mail today. Now I have a little 32 page study pamphlet to get a little more information from.

The bible is The Ross Rifle Story by Phillips, Dupuis, and Chadwick. It was published years ago, has some warts. Anyway, you have a really fine rifle there.

Hope that I can shoot this new to me rifle. Such a pain to find a place to shoot where you don't have to join a shooting club. I also have another Canadian 1942 Longbranch MKI* that I've owned for years and haven't shot either. I has the rear sight removed and is scope mounted. But I guess that's for another forum.

Just saw another good read where the Russians had re-chambered the target Ross for the 7.62x54r round. That would be interesting when you own both Mosins and .303 rifles. But to do that to a nice Ross would be "sacrilege" at best! LoL May do that to an old beater if you could find one.

There are lots of inexpensive badly sported Rosses in Canada. Not the easiest rifles to work with. Mk. III barrel breeches have square threads, plus breech face cuts. Aftermarket stocks are uncommon.
There are 'smiths who have made up sporting rifles on Mk. III actions. M1910 .280 sporters have been rebarrelled in modern belted calibers.
One chap has posted photos of a .243 sporting rifle he made on a M1905 action, strange left hand quick twist threads and all.

I'm guessing that there is supposed to be a cleaning kit stored in the butt stock. Did a web search and couldn't find anything about it. Anyone know? Thanks

Brass oil bottle and a pull through.

Anyone have any idea when my Ross MKII was manufactured with a four digit barrel serial number of 842x ? Although it's not marked I'm figuring it a 1905 MKII** Commercial Target rifle!

It would be prior to 1914. I don't know if they can be dated by serial number, or if there are any surviving factory records. I don't know if the hunting rifles' serials were mixed in with the Mk. II** target rifles' serials.
I suspect that without a barrel sight, it might be a later one.
Note that the barrel extends far enough that a bayonet would not fit. Some of the issue ones had extended bayonet bars, others had longer forends, so a bayonet could be mounted.

Cleaning kit was same as for SMLE , pull through and oil bottle

Tiriaq has said it all.....it is a Ross 1905 Mk II** commercial target rifle, later production. Early production rifles had a two piece topwood with a barrel mounted sight, but that was dispensed with somewhere around 1910 or so. Your rearsight is completely correct and original. I own a few of these rifles, and have serial number 8410, which also has a one piece wood, and mounts a BSA Martin sight on a Pilblad base. These rifles were special order so could be fitted with whatever sight combination the owner wished, or whatever the gunshop ordered. These rifles were made to chamber .303 Ross, not .303 British, so you may find that shooting certain ammunition will cause the brass to "stick" in the chamber once the rifle heats up. Not a problem with handloads or most commercial loads but could be if shooting some surplus. PM me with your email address and I can send you some information.

Ed

Speaking of reloaded ammunition, my II** will not accept full length sized cases previously fired in a Lee Enfield rifle. I found it necessary to make a die to size the FL sized cases to a smaller diameter back toward the head. The Ross chamber is not the same as a Lee Enfield chamber. No doubt this contributed to the accuracy of these rifles.

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

Speaking of reloaded ammunition, my II** will not accept full length sized cases previously fired in a Lee Enfield rifle. I found it necessary to make a die to size the FL sized cases to a smaller diameter back toward the head. The Ross chamber is not the same as a Lee Enfield chamber. No doubt this contributed to the accuracy of these rifles.

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This my experience with a target and two sevice MkII**s. Used to have resize LE fired .303" brass in a Lyman hand sizing die. Then acquired an RCBS die that sized the base enough. My other RCBS die does not size the case enough. That one die must have been made with a worn cutter.

You've got a beauty there, and with that big fat "1" stamped in the bolt I would not be surprised if it was a team rifle from before or during WWI which got "left behind" by a Canadian team visiting the USA. Of course it could also be one brought down to FL by a Canadian "retiree" any time since it was built.

And of course Old Sir Charles himself retired to St. Petersburg FL and died there.

If you want a copy of "The Ross Rifle Story" PM me and I'll put you in touch with someone in Ontario who has copies from the second printing. Cost to your door would probably be about $100 USD. Only 100 copies were done and it is a big book.

You can email the moderator at rossrifle.com and he will sign you up, where you will get commentary from the few real experts on the Ross, if you're patient.

Have a careful look around for a small mark of a crown over an "I" over "Q"

If you're sure you can get the handguard off without any damage or scratching to the stock, you may find some markings underneath. The middle band will probably need to be slid forward slightly to get the handguard off. Don't force it even slightly, but the stock should have shrunk a bit over the years and it should move easily once the screw is out.

There may be a serial number on the inside of the butt plate, and have look in the trap with a light for paper.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

You've got a beauty there, and with that big fat "1" stamped in the bolt I would not be surprised if it was a team rifle from before or during WWI which got "left behind" by a Canadian team visiting the USA. Of course it could also be one brought down to FL by a Canadian "retiree" any time since it was built.

And of course Old Sir Charles himself retired to St. Petersburg FL and died there.

If you want a copy of "The Ross Rifle Story" PM me and I'll put you in touch with someone in Ontario who has copies from the second printing. Cost to your door would probably be about $100 USD. Only 100 copies were done and it is a big book.

You can email the moderator at rossrifle.com and he will sign you up, where you will get commentary from the few real experts on the Ross, if you're patient.

Have a careful look around for a small mark of a crown over an "I" over "Q"

If you're sure you can get the handguard off without any damage or scratching to the stock, you may find some markings underneath. The middle band will probably need to be slid forward slightly to get the handguard off. Don't force it even slightly, but the stock should have shrunk a bit over the years and it should move easily once the screw is out.

There may be a serial number on the inside of the butt plate, and have look in the trap with a light for paper.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Have a careful look around for a small mark of a crown over an "I" over "Q"

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There is a 1 on the bolt, no Q or crown, and on top of the receiver ring is a 1 and the barrel has a 1 with a crown above it. Haven't tried removing the stock or upper hand guard as of yet.

---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:02 PM ----------

I still think it would be nice if I had both the 1905 and 1910 rear sights. There are no long range shooting here in the Tampa / St. Petersburg area.

Just looked in the stock butt and did find a Bill of Sale from Nov 1959 mailed to New Smyrna Beach, Florida. It was $30 shipped C.O.D. In discription it says, "M1905 .303 Caliber Ross, VG-IN, V-VG Out."

I did a "brief" read on reloading the .303 Ross and looks like my 7.7 Jap dies, which I have, will be useful in making this round. Gonna have to slug the bore and see what I have and fire form some brass.

Well how about that eh? Once in a while you find something neat in a butt trap like that old bill of sale. Sold in 1959 by Martin B. Retting Inc. of Culver City CA for $27.50 to a J. Bowman of 604 North Peninsula Ave., New Smyrna Beach, FL.
Best thing you can do after scanning that is put it right back in the butt trap.

This rifle was designed for standard .303 MkVI ammunition. There is no such thing as ".303 Ross" that was simply Sir Charles' little vanity name for .303 British.

Get some 215gr. Woodleigh bullets or equivalent and load for them in new .303 cases. I'm not sure who makes the toughest cases with the smallest dimensions, but that IMO is what you want, unless the chamber has been reamed out, and that I very much doubt. Get a chamber cast made if you really want to reload for it.

Late 50s is around the time a lot of people who were young adults before WWI were passing away, and their possessions going up for sale, and of course a great many Canadians moved down to CA after WWI as well.

Of course that is just a guess; it could have come from almost anywhere in N.A.

The "1" on the receiver supports the team rifle idea IMO.

Not sure what you mean by the "1905 and 1910" sights ? It has the correct sights on it now.

Get some prescription shooting glasses and leave the rifle alone as it is.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Not sure what you mean by the "1905 and 1910" sights ? It has the correct sights on it now.

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Reason for wanting both sights is when flipping up the 1905 sight, the "V" and the "aperture" hole, are for targets beyond 100-200 yards. Am I wrong and have not figured this sight out yet? In my area 100 yards is longest shooting range.

When I get a chance I'll do a chamber cast and mic it out. Guess I could fire form a case also. Neighbors might get "scared" of their evil neighbor firing rounds off and call the cops.

I finally found my magnifying glass and looked closely at the sight. The sight does start out at 100 yards! Those dang numbers are so frigiting small! As soon as I get some batteries for my lazer bore sighter I'll check things out for both windage and elevation.

I removed the upper handguard and there is no evidence of a rear sight mounting on the barrel. Just a smooth barrel.

Would it be total taboo to add a lower butt stock sling swivel? I really like the ease that a sling allows when traveling to the front line! LoL

No problem to use a Mk III rear sight as it will fit on your base and you can change it back any time you like.

If you install a butt sling swivel, it will devalue this fine rifle.

How much would a 1/8" hole devalue my $200 rifle?

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Originally Posted by LX Kid

How much would a 1/8" hole devalue my $200 rifle?

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Hard to say, how much would pulling a cobra jet from a numbers matching mustang and replacing it with a 5.0 devalue it?

The 5.0 is a "better" engine after all...

To be perfectly honest with you, the medical term "do no harm" becomes more important as you learn more about any subject matter.

At some point in time we have all had to learn the hard way that permanent alterations to antique firearms is a travesty. Luckily mine took place with guns that are still available in the hundreds, but every time I see the ones that I altered, I experience regret.

Your rifle is a museum exhibit, an example of the craftman's art, it is no longer a working tool as a firearm. When it was manufactured it cost the original owner several months wages, today, the value of money has changed, and our respect for these items of great value has been decreased.

Really you have to realize that you are the custodian of a artifact, not it's owner.

Well Spoken and I hope your words are not lost on him.

Well I guess I could get by with something like this!

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Originally Posted by AGB-1

Well Spoken and I hope your words are not lost on him.

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Originally Posted by AGB-1

Well Spoken and I hope your words are not lost on him.

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You know, I'm here and I read as well. Just a friendly reminder from a fellow Texan!

I hope that you are realizing that you have a very fine, hand tuned, uncommon, high grade target rifle. These rifles swept the ranges prior to the First War, winning the King's Prize at Bisley. Back when the King personally presented the prize.
Are you just teasing us by referring to your $200 rifle?

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

Are you just teasing us by referring to your $200 rifle?

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Yes I do realize the rifle is somewhat rare. Yes I was actually baiting the hook with $200 purchase. I did buy it a a local gun show from man who was asking $700 and I bargained him down to $600. This, of course, is going to be one of my "keepers!" I really like military versus commercial rifles. This rifle is, however, very near a military issued rifle so I did buy it not knowing what I had actually bought. I think I got a lucky buy. (I'm itching to find time to go and shoot her.)

North of the razor wire I would expect a price tag of at least 2K.