High School Rifle Team

A few of you have expressed an interest in the rifle team that I coach at the High School level. Better to have it's own thread rather than being buried in the black powder forum.

My team currently has 29 members. 11 of them are fully ready to compete in our matches. Of these 11, 5 are seniors, 1 is a junior, 3 are sophomores and 2 are freshmen. Only 9 are able to compete in a match so I have decent depth this year. Of those remaining, nearly all are freshmen with a few sophomores mixed in. Of those, 4 will most likely be ready to compete later in the season, and 5 others show definite promise for next season. 4 or 5 will probably never be able to shoot competitively and the rest might if they stick it out for a few years. I have had kids that shot all four years with their senior year being the only year they shot well enough to compete. I've had one that shot four years and was just outside all four. I did make sure he competed in one match his senior year.

Our first match was last night and we won but our scores were miserable. 3-99's and 6-97's. On the positive side, we won and no one shot worse than a 97. On the negative side, no one shot a 100 and we had two 97's in our top five. Both of these can be killers when competing against better teams. We were up against the worst in the league last night. We shot a 491, they shot a 475. Five teams in the league shot better than we did last night which is the problem. Their range was horrendous but my kids should be able to shoot anywhere. It was in a cafeteria with an open active hallway just to the right of my kids shooting positions. Massive distraction. We shoot air rifles so with portable targets they can set up a range anywhere. This is not a good location. The lanes were too narrow, my kids shoot angled, they have everything set up for straight. They also didn't have the targets at the same heights. One up, one down, very distracting again. I was not pleased. They just joined the league this year so they are in a learning curve and as we are happy to have another team, we don't want to make a lot of waves to discourage them. We have 8 teams in our league, 14 matches as we compete home and away with each.

Practice the night before this match, my kids shot a 498 which would have bested everyone on match night. But practice and matches are two different things, apples and oranges. But they prove the potential is there.

Our rifles are Walther LG300's so if your curious, you can check them out. .177 match grade pellets, capable of shooting through the same hole with the rifle in a vise at 10 meters. Not quite olympic grade but close.

That must be rewarding.
What type of equipment?

When shooting they wear adjustable shooting jackets, leather slings and a padded fingerless glove. Shooting glasses are required unless they wear prescription. We only shoot prone. Most sight themselves in with spotting scopes but it is legal for coaches to do that or have them make corrections. I hate shooting that way. It's painful. I give the kids a lot of credit for doing what they do. No one gets to watch them compete so not a lot of glory unless they beat the arch rival schools. The football team hasn't won in four years so since we win matches, they do at least get some attention and respect.

Way to go "A" does not matter how you win or by what margin the fact is your team won.
The hardest thing is to cultivate self belief in young men so often I have seen new aspiring shooters come to our range hoping to get good scores only to find that it ain't that simple, some show an aptitude for shooting others it takes patience as their skill is inside them they just need to get the confidence.
The only demons they face are their own and keeping them on the narrow focused path is an art in its self but great to hear bloke congrats to all.........

Great thing. I wish I could organise something like that here, but even shooting air rifles out of ranges can turn legally ugly if some idiot calls the police.
Anyway, I making a lot of PR around shooting.
Yesterday night at my company’s Christmas dinner, three or four guys asked me to take them to the range and make a trial shooting.
One starts small.......

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Way to go "A" does not matter how you win or by what margin the fact is your team won.

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Actually it sort of does. We lost the championship last season because of a lower match average. We tied at 10-2, we each won one in the head to head, next tiebreaker was match average which we lost by about 6 points over the entire season. My team is about 60% girls also, coed. Of my top 11, seven are girls.

Work on, you’ll get there!

Girls seem to have a better physc for pressure one thing I have learnt when running from my wife is to zig zag with stops & starts, she is a champion shot in her own right and has beaten some of the top Australian shooters in our club (Queens winners with Intl experience) on the day no mean feat for a shooter of 20 years experience when they have had nearly 40+ years at the game.

What type/brand of air rifles are used?

Walther LG300's

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Walther LG300's

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Good looking rig.
Keep us posted on your teams progress. Very interesting subject.

Second match of the season had me a bit nervous. I did not feel good going into this and discovered shortly before the match that my #3 shooter was serious about not competing today. Family situation that she told me about last week. One time thing. We were away at the team that has historically dominated the league for over a decade and they had the high score the first night of competition.

The problem with this sport is it is very difficult to prep kids for competition. In nearly every other sport you want to get them fired up. Cheering, yelling, back slapping, etc. In this it's the exact opposite, mental peace, quiet, focus. Very easy to put too much pressure on them and have them shoot poorly because of it.

It was a close match but we did win 496-495. To top that off, there were several upsets in the league and two other powers went up against each other and we are the only undefeated team in the league at 2-0. Usually takes at least 4 or 5 matches for that to happen.

I had 6 girls, 3 boys, should have been 7 and 2 tonight but I took the alternate. They had 9 boys, all looked like football players. I had a quiet chuckle just comparing the two teams because only one of the three boys I have is "big", the girls in particular are in general small and skinny and one is a "little person". They kicked those boys collective asses. They were pretty fired up coming home and at McDonald's afterwards.

Still have a lot of room for improvement. That elusive 500 is still waiting.

I have told you guy's the female shooters are a force to be reckoned with they seem to just have that type of temperament for the sport, allot has to do with the coach as well as your all one team not just the shooters as they rely on the coach to bolster them when they feel they have let the team down or your the go to guy with all the answers they may ask you the 500 will come in due course don't say anything about trying to get it.

The old motto my friend;
"If you cannot blind them with brilliance then baffle them with bull$hit."

I'll start teaching my son in January.
I just found out that the age limits are a purely private limit set by the Italian shooting range association (the official and state run one).
Private ranges can do whatever they want, so my range decided that at age 14 a kid can come and shoot if accompanied by a parent who has a valid carry permit. It will all be my responsibility, but I have absolutely no qualms with that.
So, among some books and other stuff, "my" present will be a letter where I tell him what I think of him (too good a guy) and, on the rear, copy of the registration form I'll deliver today.
I really can't wait for January to come!!!
Then, after starting this teaching operation, I'll certainly be smart enough to help you with your team.:rofl::rofl::rofl::super:
Ah, by the way, Sunday I went to the end of the year shooting competition of my range, where all the best shooters go and........got 2nd. With my vintage Walther PP-Sport.
Too much fun.
After taking up shooting pistols again following a 12 years stop, in just 2 months I beat almost all the good chaps.
I'll have to watch my back now.:ugh:

Tonight was one of those matches I felt like tearing my hair out. We are up against one of the league bottom dwellers and going in knowing it should be an easy win. This generally should allow them to relax and have fun and shoot well. But the opposite happened. The first relay shot three 99's when in practice last night they shot three 100's and in the previous match two 100's and one 99. Disappointing but not a disaster. Second relay has three shooters that all missed their first shot and then went from bad to worse very quickly. A 95 and two 93's. A 97 is bad for any of these three. None of these scores will or should make the top 5. Third relay rallies and I get a 100, 97, and a 96 out of my freshman so they made it an easy win 494 to 487 but that second relay remains very disturbing. We go into the holiday break undefeated and have two weeks to figure out the mental side of all of this.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

We go into the holiday break undefeated and have two weeks to figure out the mental side of all of this.

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Curious what % would you say is mental. I have an friend who shoots bench rest @ 600 yds. and am going to ask him as well.

Thing is they can get a mental relax facing the bottom sides been there and done that playing competition basket ball for 14 years till my knees packed it in.
Yep we were on top all season then you get a match against a very low ranked team and the wheels fall off shots that should have gone in just rimmed and rebounds one should have taken slipped from ones grasp and silly rookie mistakes whilst their game edged up to 150% better than they always played.
I am not going to ponder why your team shot the way it did but I will say this the only way to get a handle on this is to say OK we had a bit of a stumble but lets pick up the ball & run with it thing is A they probably know whats expected of them from you and when the first lousy shots crept in thats when their world probably crumbled, but win you did.
The only way to move from this is to say hey we were a little bit wobbly there but the better team won now moving on from this we will now go into each match like its the grand final and really show them what we can do as a team after all they are just young adults. Besides your still undefeated that counts for allot.

That sounds like a very encouraging win you had there.
I agree that women do often have an edge when shooting. My wife hardly ever goes to the range these days; but she seems to not need practice to shoot well. If she did take it seriously, she would probably blow my socks off in competition.
My daughter will be starting to learn next year when she's 7. So I'm starting to look for 2 air rifles; one I can shorten the stock for her and another for my wife and I.

The mental aspect once the skills develop is easily 80%. You can see it in how they shoot. There are major stumbling blocks in the development phase and they vary from kid to kid but basically the first big barrier is high 90's a 97 and up. Then they reach that stage and stay there pretty consistently. The next is a 100. They will shoot 99 after 99 and just not get it. When they shoot about three 99's where they missed their last shot, they figure out it really is them but getting past that is still tough. Once the first 100 comes, they shoot them pretty regularly. Occasionally, you get one that skips all but the 100 block. I have one of them this year. Freshman, shot a 97 real early and has shot two 99's to date and competed in all three matches, two 97's and a 96. He really lacks focus at this point but the physical skills are basically complete. I have a sophomore girl that broke the 100 barrier this year. Many 99's last season and quite a few this year until last week her first 100. Several since then. But then again, she is one that shot one of the 93's last night. She told me she got flustered after the second miss, concentrated on keeping it there, missed again and got even more flustered at keeping a 97 and it was all downhill from there. They are supposed to be thinking about only the shot they are making, nothing else. The number 2 kid in the league last season has yet to shoot a 100 in a match, probably because he is too concerned with finishing 1st in the league this year. One tiny loss of focus leads to a miss in this sport.

As a coach, I tell them that I can get them to a 97, the last three are on their own. I have not figured out how to coach out that last three points. This is all mental on their part. I can talk about it, explain it, encourage them, etc but they have to figure out that last three on their own.

Very difficult. Sunday I shot a 96+5 and was very pleased with myself, considering I picked up handguns again just a few weeks ago and am shooting lousy ammo.
But I really noticed that once you reach a certain level, then you can easily keep it, until something "matures" inside your brain and allows you the next step.
I went shooting again Tuesday because I'll be having some holidays now and wanted to get rid of the ammo I had, and again I shot consistently over 95, though it was freezing cold and people were chatting and making fun all around me.
Also with the S&W 29 I got much better all at once, steadily at 95 + something (here I still have to get 96, crap!).
Now I'm trying to figure out how to get steadier, in order not to throw any shots.
I learned again how not to pull on the trigger, the next step will be a steadier hand generally and learning to put down the gun after a few seconds if I don't shoot. Now I sometimes just feel I have to get rid of that damned round and land an 8 or a 9, whereas I could have scored a 10 easily.
No hassle, no pressure, just concentration and discipline! Discipline and again discipline.
Not always easy when you have a very demanding life, but that is exactly the added value of this sport: if you get to concentrate that good also on tough working days, then you learn a skill which is even more important than shooting straight itself. You learn to cope with stress and to control your emotions.
This is one of the things I want to teach my son.
I guess teaching is more difficult. You have to get to know the pupil "intimately" in order to find the right chords to strike so that he or she understands where to get that little extra out of.
Might be different "chords" than yours.
Let's see how this one works out now.


Sorry, I have to correct myself. Got a bit confused. I scored a 146+5. We shoot 15 rounds.
I'm regularly around 145 now, but don't crack the 147 barrier...

Reflecting back on your early days of shooting I can remember buying a Beretta 56E U/O Skeet gun as my SKB semi auto was no good for skeet with a full choke any way I thought the open chokes and shorter barrels would have me smacking them out of the sky not so I was in the low 16's most of the time and got very frustrated & down hearted as a 16 y/o.
Till a gunshop friend spoke to me about relaxing and to move on from the missed shot as that was always in the back of my head will I miss the next bird and whilst possibles were few and far between I at least averaged in the 20's +- afterwards.

The break of the shot should be a total surprise to the shooter when the picture looks perfect and all is in unison with your breathing, positioning and mental resilience, look I lose shots from sheer lack of well just not concentrating hard enough I do not shoot for sheep stations but pleasure and thats the way to relax is enjoy the pleasure, although I still win shoots from time to time when I grind down to it.
Once the screws start winding in and clamping down on you all your breathing, heart rate that little niggle from being uncomfortable gets you going and magnifies making a small bump look like as vertical wall its very easy to say move on from a poor shot but these are young shooters and we have all been there..........
Hey maybe Macca's for fries and a Burger for being unbeaten a team building relaxing afternoon on a w/end?

It's been a standing policy for years that if they shoot a 500 in a match and win, I pay for dinner that evening. Last night, one of my girls in the third relay asked before she shot that if they shoot a 500 at home, do they still get the meal. I assured her yes, not having the heart to tell her it wasn't going to happen that evening. But she did her part and she was the sole 100 of the night. We only stop for food at away matches on the way home. I had a feeling I'd be buying several times this season but now not so sure. Air rifles are very tough and only one 500 has been shot in the league in the last 15 years. 499's and 498's happen fairly often, we had two 498's last year. But the crew I have this year should be able to do it without question.

Getting that kind of dedication & focus out of a group of teenagers is amazing. Hats off to them and their coach. I would wager they have more success & fulfillment in their adult lives than the average participant in any other sport.

Keep up the good work, Have fun an enjoy all the matchs

We are back into competition after our holiday break. Our first match last week was rescheduled due to bad weather and then rescheduled again for bad weather so our 5th match became our 4th last night. We won that 497 to 487 and this was the first match that I felt they shot well. Should have been a 499 but I made two minor mistakes as a coach I told them I was not likely to repeat. I watched two very experienced shooters shoot slightly left two shots in a row and made the decision I would let them feel this out and both shot out left on the third shot after making no sight corrections. So each shot a 99 instead of a 100. Tonight we finally shot our 4th match 5th. This is the team that won the championship last year and has been shooting very well. They shot a 496 last night on a really crappy range. My kids came out relaxed, I didn't hesitate to correct a few of them and they won 498 to 493. This was with one of our top shooters shooting a very uncharacteristic 97, had one of my other top shooters shoot a 97 last night. Hoping the third does not do that tomorrow night. These three usually lay down and shoot 100's every night in practice and most of the time in matches. Their lowest scores in a match prior to last evening were 99's. But other's in the team stepped up to make up the slack. One of my top five with a 99 tonight did not even make yesterday's match. I have a very strong team. They just need to get more confident in their abilities and more consistent.

We remain the only undefeated team in the league. The team we face tomorrow is now in 2nd at 4-1. This team has surprised everyone this year as they are usually near the bottom of the league. Their scores are not consistent, nor as high on average as ours but we can't consider them a pushover. They defeated some good teams this year. We do not want to be the next.

I always ask when coaching my wife if there is a reason the shot placement ended up where it did if she said it was a good release & sight picture then it must be a condition of the range so I will adjust it I have watched her being coached by some shooters and they refuse to move her and she has lost shots due to it sometimes 2 in a row. It ****ed me off as those coaches should have known better she is a very capable shot with top notch gear.
You know your team A but remember this to stay at the top you got to realize every one is gunning for ya and some teams can lift to an extraordinary level and if they hit a purple patch with the rounds just finding all the dots to get the .1's (we used it in .22 small bore indoor shooting) it can have an adverse affect on team moral. Also to maintain shooting 100's day in day out can be telling on them every one has off days and whilst your team is winning and on top I say all is well the 500 will come I am sure of it there is no one in the world that will shoot possibles every time they get on the mat for their whole shooting career.
Does not matter how much you beat the oposing team by 1 point is good enough thats all that matters beating them.....good on ya for staying on top a credit to the team and yourself.:thup:

Well, we became the next last night in a rather bizarre finish. Two of my top three shooters had off nights and shot 98's and two shot very poorly with a 95 and a 91. I still had a 496 from the top five but we were tied. Tied at top six, tied at top seven, tied at eight and finally, unbelievably, that 91 made a difference and we lost. 878 to 882. Only the second time in the league a match went to nine shooters. We were in the other one as well and won that one. Can't put the blame on the kid that shot the 91 although it never should have happened. The 95 shouln't have happened either. These two shot 99's in the previous night's match. Hard to understand that just one more point anywhere out of the top 8 that didn't shoot 100's would have won it for us.

They weren't cocky, they were just off. One of the 100's came from a kid that has been struggling of late and all three that shot 98's were below their average. Hopefully, they learned something and can move forward. I found out why the other team is doing so well. A coach from one of the other teams that won two championships prior to quitting is helping them 5 days a week. He knows what he's doing and has turned them around rapidly. He's not the head coach, he's still there but he's volunteering and much more involved than their head coach.

We need to find consistency from all 9 shooters in the matches. Just not there yet. I have five up one day and five others up the next.

My kids shot 100, 100, 99, 99, 98, 98, 98, 95, 91. Hard to complain about the first 7.

Hard to complain about any of them they gave their all..............on the day

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

My kids shot 100, 100, 99, 99, 98, 98, 98, 95, 91. Hard to complain about the first 7.

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:thup:

We had another screwy week with one match being rescheduled twice due to snow. In any case, the kids rebounded from the loss with a pair of wins shooting 498 in each match. First team shot a 477 so not much of a competition. This is their first year in the league and second year shooting. Second team was closer at 494. We have not had a real practice in two weeks and only had two partial practices in all that time. All the other teams are in the same boat so not a huge deal. I'm very pleased that they kept their scores up at a high level despite the setbacks with practice, etc.

Last nights match was a 100,100, 100, 99, 99, 99, 99, 98, 97

:super:

Well done Coach and Team :super:

We split the two matches this week which did not help our cause as the team that beat us has a better match average and we are now 1-1 head to head. Shot a 493 that night which is very low for us. Second match not much improvement with a 495 but it was at least a win. Other team had their highest score of the year with a 493 so they had me sweating for a bit. They shot a 479 two nights earlier. None of my top three shooters have shot well this week which is what is killing us. Two are seniors and it is a common trend in this sport as focus gets lost as the realization that this is their final few matches. Trying not to bring that up. The third is a junior that simply has not been focused all season. He assumes he's the best, gets frustrated when he's not and just doesn't produce. These three should be shooting 100's each match. This week they shot 99,98,97,100,98,98. The 98's kill us, the 97's aren't even a factor at all. There is now a 3 way tie for 1st at 7-2. We can take out the third, the third can possibly take out the second but I doubt it. One other school has the potential to take all three of us down one so it will be an intersting four matches to the end.

An interesting aside: my father (USN 1944-46) was on his high school's rifle team (Science Hill High School, Johnson City, TN). A memory of his was that he used to take his rifle home and work out in the backyard. When he returned to school he'd just bring the rifle with him and leave it in his locker. He would do the same on days he want to go squirrel hunting. He'd take his rifle to school and stow in in his locker.

When he graduated from high school he enlisted in the Navy and trained at the Great Lakes training center. When it came time to qualify on the Garand everyone snickered because they thought the skinny kid with glasses from Tennessee wouldn't be able to see to shoot. He qualified as a sharpshooter and top of his class. Surprise! He was pretty pleased sixty years later when I qualified sharpshooter as well.

Bob

Season ended tonight on a low note. The teams seniors essentially all collapsed in the last two weeks of the season. I have never had this happen before. Two of them were assured of winning All Star awards and then just started shooting 97's and 98's match after match. It killed us. My younger members did step it up and we were competitive and finished with a higher match average than last year but it was a killer for me just watching them shoot because I knew what we needed in each match. 4 of the 5 loses were by one point. Had we gotten one more point in all 4 of these matches we would have tied, gone to the sixth shooter and won. Never had that happen before either. Finished 9-5 which is respectable but not what we expected or wanted.

My B-pairs won first place in the tournament which was a plus. The A-pairs, 2nd year and up shooters, all finished middle of the pack.

Individuals is Saturday but I don't have high hopes. They traditionally don't perform well on double targets because I don't emphasis them during the season and we only have a few days to practice on them.

I know the feeling when I was playing basket ball one season we were undefeated and wining games hand over fist one game we trounced the bottom team 101 - 001 point we all got Tech fouled because we tried to drop kick the ball into our goals that's where they got their solitary point from a free shot. Comes the grand final we lost it by 1 point in the last 15 seconds to the 3rd top team its crushing.....I will always remember that grand final for all the wrong reasons

Better fortunes next year Aragorn as you will lose some seniors but gain new blood that can be educated and moulded hopefully the retiring shooters will carry on in the sport and even progress to C/F rifles who knows they may end up in the services where the possibilities are endless. Go into Saturday with an open mind as the season has finished what they scored as a team is gone you cannot get it back just build on what you have in front of you. Good Luck.

Come on, it’s all experience gained, and maturity.
Will be helpful in the next season.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

When shooting they wear adjustable shooting jackets, leather slings and a padded fingerless glove. Shooting glasses are required unless they wear prescription. We only shoot prone. Most sight themselves in with spotting scopes but it is legal for coaches to do that or have them make corrections. I hate shooting that way. It's painful. I give the kids a lot of credit for doing what they do. No one gets to watch them compete so not a lot of glory unless they beat the arch rival schools. The football team hasn't won in four years so since we win matches, they do at least get some attention and respect.

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Just as an aside note. All prescription glasses manufactured and sold in the US have to be shatterproof and in fact on the same or better level of safety shooting glasses. The only time I would be concern if the glasses do not completely cover the eye like the old "granny" glasses. I a lot of times, shooting ranges will try and squeeze every last dollar out of you by making you buy their shooting glasses.

Season numbers came out and we had the second highest average in the league. Two also made All Star honors for the year. The third was just out in the 11th spot.

Always something good just around the corner see.......

Third made All Stars due to incorrect entry by another coach.

Yeah, this turned into a mess today. We were all to submit our top shooters last evening so they could be entered onto a spreadsheet and sorted. That got done, the scores were released and I checked things over and they looked about right. I don't see so well anymore so I missed something last night. This morning I get up, get a ding on my phone about a new mail and I check and it's a copy of the shooters list. I figure maybe something was wrong, they updated it and I better double check. My first guy is in 5th, no issue. My second was tied for 7th but listed 8th and I noticed something weird, the 7th place shooters score was .01 higher than hers. Now this is a mathmatical impossibility and I doublechecked the math and then notified the other coach and the fellow running the spreadsheet that something was wrong. I also noted a discrepancy with a shooter outside the top ten. Another .01 difference so I notified that coach as well. First coach argues that his computer did it, sent me his figures down to the 5th decimal point. I again replied it was impossible and explained why. Basically it's a .085 difference for one point at the level we are dealing with. So we have several ties among the top 10. I didn't want my girl getting 8th when she should be tied for 7th. Turns out after the third statement that it was impossible, he re-ran the numbers and discovered the error. His kid dropped to 10th, mine moved into sole position of 7th and in the process, my third along with three others moved into a 5 way tie for 10th.

So that's settled. But a couple of the newer coaches start questioning why we have ties and why we are giving All Start status to 14 kids. We have traditionally only used tiebreakers for the #1 position, the kids get to drop 2 out of 14 targets for All Stars. Or compete in at least 12 matches depending how you look at it. Those that compete in 12 can't drop any, those that compete in 14 can drop 2. All the kids know this going in so we can't change it at the end of the season and why should we. The idea is to reward kids for outstanding performance and if that works out to 14 because of a tie, so be it. We had three tied for first so the tiebreaker came into play for that.

It worked out to be
1st
2nd
2nd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
8th
10th
10th
10th
10th
10th

This isn't the first year we've had ties, we have ties every year and multiple ties most years. Just not often going over 10 although we had two seasons with 11 in the last 8 years.

phone was dinging almost non-stop for three hours over this.

When I was shooting Postal discipline (25yds with .22 prone indoors) 1970 there was a small dot in the middle of the 10 ring these were the .1's so you used a bullet gauge to check the dot was not touched if it was that close, the comps came down to if say a shooter had 100 with 5 dots (100.05) the other guy had a 100 with 4 dots (100.04) then it was the .05 that won.
If they still could not be separated IE if they had the same number of dots in the same order say like 1st shot 3rd shot and so on (Count back) then it had to go to a shoot off the first one to drop a point or say the other guy gets a 10.1 and you hit just a 10 then your toast, I cannot fathom a .085 unless handicaps came into play but usually seasonal averages are off rifle though we run Handicap winner as well.

Well at least the error was sorted sorry for the guys that dropped to 10th but the young lass at sole 7th is good, next year bloke start now..........

Last event of the year was yesterday. The individuals tournament. Top 6 from each team compete for top ten positions. One of my kids finished 2nd with a score of 200 with 2 centers. I was very happy for him. This was his best performance of his career and finally showed some focus on his part. He was also my top shooter for the year but shot mostly 99's all season with a scattering of 100's. He is a junior but may not come back next year due to wanting to concentrate on 3 position shooting which we do not do. My two seniors went from shooting 200's with 2-4 centers the day before to shooting a 197 and 195 which put the one in 14th and the other 20 something. Sophomores did a bit better.