Can anyone point me towards, or supply me with a history of the process by which SMLE mk 3s ended up in Iraq. I'm particularly interested in knowing when these contracts were in place and how these rifles would have been used over there. THANKS.
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Can anyone point me towards, or supply me with a history of the process by which SMLE mk 3s ended up in Iraq. I'm particularly interested in knowing when these contracts were in place and how these rifles would have been used over there. THANKS.
Pete,
Look deeper into the trials and tribulations of one Lieutenant T.E. Lawrence, better know as Lawrence of Arabia. He procured a lot of SMLE's into Iraq to assist the Arab Spring. If you start here it may open some other angles for you to seek out what you need: T. E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)
On the outbreak of the First World War Lawrence was forced to leave Dahoum as custodian to the Carchemish site. In December 1914 Lawrence was recruited by army intelligence in North Africa and worked as a junior officer in Egypt. In October 1916 he was sent to meet important Arab leaders such as Faisal ibn Ali and Nuri es-Said in Jiddah. After negotiations it was agreed to help Lawrence to lead an Arab revolt against the Turkish Army. From November 1916 onwards Lawrence was permanently attached to Feisal's forces as a liaison officer, advising on strategy and supervising among other things the procurement of arms and delivery of Treasury subsidies. Lawrence of Arabia, as he became known, carried out raids on the Damascus-Medina Railway. His men also captured the port of Aqaba in July 1917. Sympathetic to Arab nationalism he helped established local government in captured towns.
Paraphrasing from "The Other Battle" (by D.M. Ward July 1946) history of WWII BSA, in 1935 after 17 years of inactive rifle production, the Government approved an order for 16,000 No.1 rifles for Iraq. Retired workers were brought back and the contract took two years and was completed on time.
MK VII posted here records from the Public Records Office, Rifles with normal length butts, no magazine cutoffs were ordered for Iraq in three unexplained groupings. 11,000, 4000, and 700. There seems to be a 700 unit discrepancy between BSA history and PRO. Contract ran from March 198, 1935 through April 12, 1937. Cost was 5 pounds 14/10d each.
The contract books at the Public Records Office list a contract dated 19.3.35 to BSA Guns Ltd for 'Rifles No.1 Mk III*, normal butts, w/o cut-off' (amongst other items) for "Iraqian [sic] Government", quantity 15,780 at a unit price of £5 14/10d, to be accepted by CISA at their works. The first to be delivered in 17 weeks at 50 per week, rising to 100 / wk in 21 weeks, 200 / wk in 26 weeks, and 300 / wk in 34 weeks. It was completed by 12.4.37
So in short.................many were used against coalition forces in 2002 on!!
As they always say in the Army, what goes around, comes around.
I wouldn't have agreed that they get them in the first place.
Sadly T.E.Lawrence was just a well meaning Army medler who noone found towed the Regimental line. He was just one of many who thought to appeese the Arab League by supplying them with guns.
Now where have we heard that before.........Mudjahadeen started the ball rolling when they were causing havoc with the Russians, and the British long before that, photos from 1995 below, which show the favoured weapon were the AK47 and the Lee :surrender:
We watched the vids from the Russian conflict and knew those #1 Mk3s were probably the very same issued during WW1.
I did see one with brass plating around the stock and beautifully studded with copper studs. Superglue/wood filler/varnish apparently not available in the mountains to solve split wood.:lol:
The only reason I wanted to go there was to examine the rifles on hand. Love to take notations of wrist markings...
Slightly different, as discussed before, a friend of mine recovered a No5 "jungle Carbine" in a Taliban arms cache a few years back, recovered and repatriated, he still shoots that rifle today.
Head spaced and proofed and added to his personal FAC of course.
Pics on here if anyone wants to go searching.
I like the first no1 mk3* with the stock disk, early cocking piece, cutoff and milled sight protectors.
The amount of weapons that would have been laying around in the desert with dead soldiers and vehicles during the war, would have been perloined by bedoiun tribesmen too, so the amount of Commonwealth weaponry held, on top of that given under a Government handout, means that there must be hundreds of thousands of weapons in Arab hands right across the region.
As a general rule, the condition of their rifles and weaponry in general was dire to the point of fit only for scrap. The best you could say in fairness was that it worked - just! We saw loads and loads of it. Even the chromed stuff used by the palace guards was dire when seen from a foot away! What they lacked most of in those middle eastern climes was oil...... well, certainly for when it came to cleaning their kit!
The Mudjahadeen were supplied with a lot of rifles and ammunition during there visit from Russia. I've mentioned it in a previous post but these arms arrived without the shipping label or the original shipper's address.........and I very much doubt you will find any info on the subject in the national archives.
I agree, but i'm having trouble finding a good working example. The Iraq contract rifle that spurred my question above got sold under me, which was a shame, as it's history was so interesting. It seems many don't have the original woodwork. I don't mind the rifle having some non-matching numbers - that seems just like part of its journey - but if it has 1950's stock and so on, it detracts a little from the sense of history you get from holding a weapon that was used in the !st world war. My grandfather died in 1917 in the trenches. I have many letters home from him, but it would be incredible to be able to learn to shoot the same model rifle he learned on.
They're available...Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteVermont
Almost looks like the forend was cut just past the band and then grafted back together later with that small strap that passes under the band.
thanks for this direction. I hadn't thought of this as a source. I have an old second edition volume of the 7 Pillars of wisdom that i read eons ago, and now will pull down and re-read. Do you think it fair to say that all or the vast majority of smles produced during the Great War years would have remained in Britsih servicemen's hands (either in the middle east, Africa, or the Western Front) until the end of the war, or would some have been sent drect from manufacture toward the arab uprising?
I suggest that old reserve stock was issued, the newest went to the fighting troops in the trenches.