1942 SAVAGE No4MK1 T....w/telescope

First of all I must thank browningautorifle...Jim. He will post pictures that I emailed to him to this thread....without him that would not be possible. Without pictures it almost seems meaningless. Thanks again Jim!!!

Over the Christmas holidays I acquired what I think is a rare No4 T sniper. I want to share pictures and dialogue with all the experts here as I know my knowledge is limited. It is one of the Savages that was completed by Holland&Holland. The gentleman I purchased it from lives in Sudbury Ont, Canada. I actually made the trip to Sudbury where the rifle was purchased. The owner told me he acquired it in the 60's from Harvey's Surplus on #4 Lisgar St in Sudbury....the tag on the chest supports this. He mentioned it was the only Enfield sniper they had at the time...what he paid for it I do not know.
Half of the fun in collecting is the chase and this one had me 6000km away from where I live. Thankfully my folks live within about a five hour drive so while visiting them during the holidays I was able to connect the dots.
This rifle is in very good condition as well as the bore....it certainly shows war time service but not abuse. Just of interest.....see the 3 swastikas ethched into the stock...they do look period correct and I doubt the elderly gent put those on, his collection would not indicate him doing something like that.
The rifle is all matching, scope/bracket match to rifle as well as the scope tin. I showed this to two very knowledgeable Enfield collectors and they said that everything appears legit. I was told that... probably the hardest thing to fake or re-create in this kit is the white stenciling on the outside of the scope tin....the OC3422!! That was the affirmation for the fellow that this indeed was a wartime H&H conversion and not something somebody cobbled together. The fact that I acquired it in Sudbury from the original owner when it went surplus certainly peeked my interest when the emails were flying back and forth.
The for-end seems to be the original as it typically does not have the regular H&H numbering that follows the length of the stock. It does not have the TR on the wrist as well the S is non-existent on the mag cut-off. The T on the left receiver wall is certainly smaller than all the others I've seen but the fonts are the same. I did pull the buttstock off and yes it is the original numbered butt to the rifle. I did not see any inspectors stamps (D6E) at the end of the bolt raceway either, although that suncorite paint may be hiding something. The front fore-sight band is the MK1.
Your thoughts and expertise are appreciated...and I hope you enjoy the pictures on behalf of Jim.

Looking forward to the pictures bros. From your description it sounds pretty much as I'd expect for a legit 'early' rifle. You probably won't find a D6E because they generally aren't there, or if they are they may be in an unusual place, like on the Knox (I've owned several 1941 dated rifles like that - not recorded in any of the books, but seen with my own eyes).

Best.

So without further...we provide pics. Nice looking rifle, I should be so graced... Click on the box with arrow and you get the big picture for those of you that require detail.

Very nice! Do you know if barrel is serialized? How many grooves does barrel have? Ron(Canada)

What a superb looking rifle, looks right in my limited knowledge. The three "kills" also look to be historic, its a sobering reminder of the deadly and absolutely necessary trade these Rifles undertook.

N92 on left front side scope bracket - Daglish & Son, Glasgow, very tidy rifle congrats.

Beautiful rifle!! Congratulations on a great find. Thank you for sharing the story as well as the pictures.

Brian B

You don't get better or more original than that..........

Yes, nice! Still stocked up in its original birch. Of the various markings that became the standard on 4T's that were converted by H&H the S51 seems to have been applied regularly earliest on, viz this rifle.

Another great find. I read somewhere about the #4T accuracy that "they were very adept at putting round holes in square heads"

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Originally Posted by #1oilman

putting round holes in square heads

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:rofl::rofl:

Nice rifle, should be a 6groove barrel unless it's been replaced.

Attachment 89890

top is 5 groove (1945 dated brit), middle is 2 groove, bottom is 6 groove.

all numbered to their respective rifle

The top and bottom are MkI's the middle is a MkI*.

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Originally Posted by rgg_7

Very nice! Do you know if barrel is serialized? How many grooves does barrel have? Ron(Canada)

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Thanks guys for all your input so far. I removed the rear handgaurd and yes barrel is serialized and matching. It also has the flamming bomb stamp among others. The handguard that I removed is also stamped "S" on the inside. The barrel is a 6 groove left hand twist.
Any rough ideas as to how many Savages were completed w/scopes .....not the scope-less ones? In the meantime I'll try to answer my own question through a search.

I don't know of any figures re how many Savage's were scoped up, but I'd love to see some if they exist. From purely anecdotal experience I'd think most if not all of the Mk1 rifles & a proportion of the Mk1*'s. I have thinned out my collection of WW2 stuff a lot recently, but I've retained a 1941 Mk1 (scoped), a 1942 Mk1* (scoped), & a 1942 Mk1* (less scope).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I don't know of any figures re how many Savage's were scoped up, but I'd love to see some if they exist. From purely anecdotal experience I'd think most if not all of the Mk1 rifles & a proportion of the Mk1*'s. I have thinned out my collection of WW2 stuff a lot recently, but I've retained a 1941 Mk1 (scoped), a 1942 Mk1* (scoped), & a 1942 Mk1* (less scope).

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Ok....I'll stop searching!!! If DR. RP doesn't know the answer, it isn't likely out there!!

Bros actually brought this No.4 Mk.I (T) rifle from Sudbury Ontario, several thousand kilometres/miles to Richmond, BC, Canada and allowed me to examine it. If he had been selling it, I would have bought it! I congratulate him on a great find.

I too have a Stevens-Savage No.4 Mk.I (T) though mine was converted at Enfield. The rest of my No4 (T) rifles are Long Branch made, but I have owned a number of BSA made H&H conversions as well as a 1931 Trials Rifle that was converted at Enfield.

The set that Bros acquired looks correct in all regards. The chest has the paper label with the matching pencilled serial number. The scope case No.8 Mk.I is matching numbers to both the rifle and scope. The three tiny swastikas do appear to be kill marks. They are very discreet and appear to have been there for a very long time. The seller made no mention of them and apparently was unaware of them. Some snipers did record kills on their rifles, although it was very uncommon. In the memoirs of a German sniper on the Eastern Front, he mentioned how he had recorded his many kills on his rifle. He lent the rifle to another sniper who was later captured. When his body was found ... well, let’s simply say that the Soviets did not appreciate the implication of these markings. I acquired for our regimental museum a Huot Automatic Rifle (full-auto Ross M-10 / Mk.III) prototype Serial Number 2. It was one of two taken overseas to France for testing in combat in the Great War and it has two very distinct notches carved into the butt - apparently kill marks.

As a platoon commander, I did find a swastika carved into an issued Canadian rifle’s butt, but as it was an FN C1A1 in the early 1980s, I determined right away that it was vandalism and let my strong feelings on care of weapons be known to the men of my platoon!

Just wow.

What a great and complete original matching Savage sniper. Not only are original and complete sniper sets scarce but especially early Savage ones. I have not seen many of them. I feel fortunate to have a complete matching 44 BSA set an all matching and correct period Trials sniper, less matching scope.
The notches or kill marks on a rifle do carry a serious problem to the soldier if captured with the weapon. I have a correct M1A1 carbine with 3 apparent period original notches on the pistol grip. I would not of wanted to be captured with it, Ray
Attachment 89887

Yes as Seaforth72 mentioned I noticed the 3 swastikas when examining the rifle before purchase....the gentleman did not mention them and I did not question him upon learning of them. The dynamics of the deal could have potentially changed so I thought it best to keep quiet. Some people get right crazy about stuff like that and think that whatever they are selling is worth another bucket of cash because supposedly Queen Mary touched it . I'm not saying that could have been the case in this deal, but one never knows and I wasn't about to find out. I have a strong feeling that he was unaware that they were there. I never bought the rifle because of the 3 swastikas....it bought it for what it is, they are just a bonus!!!

It isn't just kill marks that soldiers carve into the stocks of their rifles. I used to own a nice Savage 1942 Mk1 4T that had the name of the owner's sweetheart or wife (presumably!) marked into the forend........the rifle is long since sold, but I seem to recall her name was Yvette. It's not an exclusively French name, but it's popular there........who knows, perhaps the rifle belonged to a French Canadian sniper, or it could have been one of the rifles air dropped to the Maquis.............

An enemy capturing a soldier with a rifle marked with his girlfriends name or something personal like that wouldn't incur their wrath. But to have those notches or swastikas or an enemy soldiers wristwatch etc etc would bring on the pains, believe me. It is the very FIRST thing that you are taught in real life but, alas, not in the popular comic books relating to snipers.

Those swastikas are the only thing that I don't believe to be correct about the rifle.

Great find and purchase!

It looks like sometime in '43 or early '44 a box of Savage's made it to the front of the line at H&H as mine also has a '43 dated scope. I missed out on another early Savage with a matching Mk II scope in the fall, still crying over that one as it was quite the unicorn.

Enjoy her!

Well done !

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Pu7hq8L-1.jpg

The shipping label on the chest....any thoughts on.... who was "WFS"?