Help with Broken Bolt Damaged Receiver M1 Carbine

Hello again everyone,
Well I got a lot of help from you guys regarding identifying parts on my mostly Rock-Ola M1. But now... tragedy has befallen my meager existence!

Went and shot it today and on the last round the bolt broke in the right lug area ( I have read about this), but I think its much worse then that, my receiver is damaged on the left side.

The area on the left side of the receiver where the bolt notches into has a divot out of it on the underside. If you are looking straight down on it you cannot see it. But with the bolt and mag out you can see the damage.

I am sick to my stomach. Waited a long time to buy this and paid a pretty penny. Now what? I know I need a bolt, but am I screwed on my receiver?

Any and all help/advice is needed and appreciated. Where can I get a bolt? Can the receiver be salvaged and by who? At what cost?

Thanks, Jeff

Something major must have happened for that? There must have been something noticeable? I think it should be carefully inspected before shooting again, more than just a new bolt and a touchup on the inside track...

Jeff, that does not look good. Bolts are easy to come by, but the receiver scares me. Is there also damage on the RH side ? See white arrow on this image. If you have a gunsmith there that you trust, take it to him to be checked over. If you don't have someone there, call Floyd or Robin at the "Old Mill" in The Dalles. Were you shooting name brand ammo, and do you have any of it left? If you have some left, check it closely for case length and overall length. I've had some that you could actually see the difference without even measuring it. The bolt didn't close fully on it, and luckily the safety feature built into the carbine kept the hammer from contacting the firing pin. Bolts can and do fail, and what you see is typical of what can happen. Sorry it happened to your new carbine! - Bob

The right hand side looks fine on close inspection. No other notable damage other then whats in the pictures.

Sadly, and I must admit it out loud, it is an ammo issue. I was shooting reloads from a trusted friend. The round did in fact fire and was subsequently lodged in the chamber. I was able to pull the bolt back, eject it and inspect the case. The primer was as flat as a pancake. No other signs of over pressure like splits or bulging, but the primer was FLAT!

So much for his reloads. I am not sure of the load. Stupid me. I have reloaded for over 30 years and knew better then to trust someone else loads. In fact, immediately prior to pulling the trigger, I thought better of it and did not follow my gut.

My fault. I just hope the receiver can be repaired. Thoughts?

As far as the bolt, due to correctly matching it for head spacing etc., I have read it may be better to have a gunsmith do it. I could just buy one and drop it in after receiver repair, but that does not seem wise even if the gun is given a clean bill of health by a gunsmith for bolt replacement.

Anybody have any thoughts on replacing your own bolt without a gunsmith?
Jeff

You need a good gunsmith that has worked on carbines who can repair the left side lug recess. This may have been damaged before and could have been the cause of your bolt letting go. It can be repaired and a new bolt fitted. But your old bolt is DOA and you can strip it of it's parts. The recess can be welded and machined making it like new again. Just as long as the heat of welding is taken away from the receiver when it is welded but a good gunsmith will know that. You can fined new bolts on Ebay or Gun Broker. Just keep looking till you find what your looking for.

I am sorry you have had this happened to you and your rifle as you alluded in your reply that " In fact, immediately prior to pulling the trigger, I thought better of it and did not follow my gut. "
I categorically will not shoot anyone's reloads in my rifles if I am given any of them I say fine I will take them home dump the powder & primer and after conducting the regular checks for length and head separation (I only have 303's we are not allowed S/A's)) reconstitute the round with my gear.

Did you keep any of the rounds that he reloaded or have you shot the lot as it would be good to get one apart to try and identify the charge weight & powder (which you can do) E.G AR 2209 (Hog-4350 or IMR-4350 for the USA) looks vastly different than say RE-19 or N-150.
Already a couple of members have commented others will be along shortly as well to help you get back on the range again to enjoy your rifle as thats what it is all about.

How true. I KNEW better! I will inspect the remaining rounds and touch bases with him regarding the load. Right now I am just upset over the damage. Again, I know I can get a bolt, but was pretty worried about the receiver. Sounds like it can be repaired, so I feel better.

Jeff

I only shoot military surplus or commercial ammo from CMP. If reloading saves me two cent a round, but cost me two hundred in repairs I think I'm ahead of the game.
Skip

Hi Jeff,
I remember the first time I took a close look at the carbine we grew up with that my Father snuck home from the Philippines. After looking at the bottom left guide way that the bolt's left lug rides on top of .... I seen the shape of it and thought it was messed up, with metal missing. Made me sick, but later learned it was how it was suppose to be. I'm using your picture here to show it. Increase the picture size and It looks like primer cup fragments laying in the track or something like it....... Doesn't it ?

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....8&d=1515538513

For now get a few of 'HIS' reloads so the loaded casings can be measured for Length.
Closely look over the inside of your chamber for any obstructions.
Then read this link, It's very important that no burs are on the right and especially the left bolt guide ways. We'll address the bolts' left and right locking shoulders later. Be sure to see figure 50 on page 76 .

Take a breath and read this... paying close attention to anything INSPECTION related... like : knocking down burs on the bolt lug guide ways, op slide track... etc

I'll pull out a Rock ola receiver so we can swap pictures for comparison Wednesday.

http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Man...-1276_1947.pdf

Charlie-P777

That Right bolt lug may have been cracked. I've torn up my share of bolts. 1 I just happen to see out in the sun light at the range.... looked like a scratch or fine piece of string right where yours busted. I caught it just in time... a few more shots ? and it could have been in multiple pieces.

Keep in mind that Bolts... Flat or Round will break.

Look at the damage on the left side stop in this link and compare to yours: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=57130

Pic from the link:

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....2&d=1465680243

Painter777,

I looked at the diagram on page 76. I cannot quiet tell what I am seeing in the area where my damage is, but I can certainly see mine is chipped/broken. I have posted picture again with arrow pointing to the damage and my main concern.

Also, I looked at the picture you posted of the other guys broken receiver. Yes, that is where mine broke exactly, though not quite as deep of a chip. I read his old thread and it sounds like I am in deep doo doo.

Also, Sounds like its not a repairable area per CMP and Fulton.

Is that your impression of the damage? I guess I am grasping at straws hoping this can be repaired. No way I can afford a replacement receiver and bolt. No way. If it cannot be repaired the things a paper weight!

Jeff

Area of Concern

Attachment 89924

Jeff, Here are (2) pictures of my Underwood receiver. I was concentrating more on the RH locking area, which I thought looked "odd" on your picture. The LH side on mine looks marred up a bit, too. Hope this helps. - Bob

Bob,

I see what you saw on the right side of my receiver. I have inspected that area and am sure its just a scratch.

Look at the picture I posted above with the arrow. There is a CHUNK taken out of the left side of mine.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Jeff

Jeff, Make sure you read those other two links I PM'd you with. Good info in there. - Bob

I believe it probably can be repaired if you can find someone who does micro laser welding. Which can be used since it does not use a lot of heat to get the weld to hold in critical areas of the receiver. The damaged areas can be built up and machined down. I of course would proof test the carbine before any continued use. I hope everything works out.
--fjruple

Are M-1 carbine bolts "drop in"?
I seem to remember that they are not "drop in".
Any feedback appreciated.

They are to the point they'll work but all should be headspace checked.

Yes the receiver is damaged and it may have been the cause of the bolt letting go. The left lug is supposed to lift up but the damage to the receiver can catch it and prevent it from lifting in proper timing. The extra strain is now on the right hand lug and the lug fail at the weakest point the area of the extractor. If you were to replace the bolt now and continue to shoot it the new bolt is bound to break too. That is why you have to fix it first. Good luck with it.

Thanks for all the replies. I am talking with several qualified gunsmiths to determine if it can be safely repaired.

Jeff

A most unfortunate failure, but is all to common with bolts. Cause of bolt failures are usually over pressure or excessive headspace or metal fatigue. The method of failure is the right lug cracking, then breaking off, with crack starting on the back of the right hand lug in that tight radius where it meet the bolt body. I've never come across a USGI bolt that was either below or above hardness spec.

What maker's marks were on the bolt, ie who made it?

Did you get this carbine's headspaced checked before you shot it? You can still headspace it with the broken bolt, be sure to strip it first, and see if this was the problem.

Glad to hear you are getting gunsmith(s) to look at it, but make sure they know M1 carbines.

If you have a micrometer, or vernier, check the outside width of the receiver in two locations, one right adjacent to that nicked spot, and the other more rearward, close to the web in front of the dovetail. What you are looking for is to check and see if the receiver has bulged out. If it has, your receiver is done. If it seems that it has not bulged out during failure of the bolt, you are probably going to be able to save this receiver.

Here's why: The recoil load on the bolt during the firing cycle is handled by the right hand lug, the smaller left hand lug is a guide for the bolt right after rotation, during recoil, so once rotated the left lug relief cut in the receiver aligns the bolt during its travel backward & forward.

If that nick is dressed out, the left lug of a replacement bolt will do the job. Do not have anyone attempt to repair weld that area, as it will degrade the strength in this region, put there by the original heat treating.

If and when you decide to get a replacement bolt, and you are not trying to retro-match it (ie flat Rock-Ola), get a USGI round bolt, and ensure that it's not a commercial one.

Thank you for all the information. I will be careful who repairs it, and will check my barrel.

Jeff

I'd say that was a hot round. I can't help you on the receiver question but would think that if it can be built up and worked back into shape, you will at that time have to re-Parkerize at least the receiver. Don't take what you think is the easier way and try to do the barreled receiver because you will have to remove the gas piston. Sometimes you will cross-thread the piston nut on reassembly and crack the thin gas block at which point your carbine is toast. And removing the barrel is no fun either because it requires specialized equipment to avoid twisting/breaking the receiver. And make sure you check that receiver for deformation like Manteo said before spending a nickel on repairs. I'm sorry to say I think you are in serious trouble with that carbine.

Thanks for the advice!
Jeff

I remember a few years back some guy had a couple of bolts break and BQ explained to us all that that the bad left slot was the cause. As a matter of fact he said that you could keep on putting new bolts in and they would keep on breaking. That receiver has only one shot at being salvagable and that would be to weld up a fix and have a good machinist try and save it. People forget that some of these carbines were run as M2s and God knows how much that beats them up. The owner has got to understand that the carbine needs a couple of things to work well, cases that are trimmed correctly and a bolt that closes correctly with a good fit on both sides. I would suspect that that receiver was already messed up and when the bolt let go it was REALLY messed up. Because the left slot is just a guide the repair might survive well in spite of not being reheat treated.
Take a look an an AK47 bolt and slot sometime. The left hand lug will not even be touching the wall of the slot while the right side will be fit perfectly. With the carbine, if there is anything that limits the touching surface of that right lug, it really puts a strain on an already fragile bolt. A banged up left lug that sits slightly crooked in its slot will doom the right lug unless you have an exceptional one and I don't think that there are that many perfect ones.

Great information. If I can have it safely repaired, I will.

Jeff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by manteo97

Did you get this carbine's headspaced checked before you shot it? You can still headspace it with the broken bolt...

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Such a measurement would be invalid. Once past its elastic limit, a material cannot be brought back to the same position as prior to applying the load. To fracture, a specimen has been loaded way beyond its elastic limit. Basic material science.

Jeff,
Fortune Telling Bruce has this extra Bolt he said he'd give you a deal on, and wanted me to mention it. He said the Pitting was from the volcanic ash on Iwo Jima !!! :thup:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...01/sl400-1.jpg

Bit of fine filing work like Brian Dick has mentioned doing No.32 scope tubes, some fine emery paper then autosol and that bolt will be as good as new Painter but just a tad undersized:p

Painter777,

That looks like the correct bolt for my carbine. Do you think Fortune Telling Bruce would take $250.00 for it? With the expense of the receiver, that's about all I could offer him.........

Jeff

Hey, man, its great that you are keeping your sense of humor through this ordeal - it indicates a smart and healthy mind. Best of luck with it.

I would give it to you Jeff but that robber baron Charlie won't give it back, even after I sent back his wife's snow shovel.

Parrot,
Keep the bolt out.
Now with just the Op Slide, guide rod and spring installed, pull it slowly back and forth..... see if it feels like a smooth ride or any binding felt, or if it feels gritty... like hitting burs..... note results... we'll get back to this later.

Next:
Things to do until you see a gunsmith..
Pull the wood off.
De-grease and clean up the receiver, pull off and do the same with your Op slide.
Look , feel and measure the receivers left inner rail.... where the bolts left lug rides on. Your looking for any cracks or where the lower edge might be rolled over or under. Feel for any Burs on the same rail under the top edge, back side and on top of the bottom rail. Also look over the right side rail for burs.. on the top where your bolts right lug sits and the outer right side where your slide connects and dismounts from.
As stated in a above post... measure the outside of the receiver, looking for any bulges. Also measure the left inner rail that the bolts left lug rides on to see if its consistent. Use anything you can as a straight edge... any where you can, as I passed along in our PM.

Your Op slide: See if the Op Slide arm is straight. Next: Up by the Op handle- Look for unusual wear, nicks or burs where the inside recess hooks on to the bolts right lug..... Anything that could affect rotation, Also check the wear on the inner pad that hooks in to the receiver and the 2 rear pads at the back of the slides box well.. where these 2 pads ride in the grooves on either side of the barrel flat. Also look for any sharp edges or burs on those 2 grooves on the sides of the barrel..... you know where the slide disconnect slot is. These are not often checked, but any of the above conditions can put drag on the Op slides internal pads/rail/lugs, and can drain energy from the spring thus helping stress the bolt.
Any momentary hesitation/binding while in action can and will stress a bolt.
Oh... and While your Op Slide spring is laying around- Measure it and note it.

Address any burs with a fine honing stone or light file. Clean away any shavings.

I have more to share with you, some good, some....well we'll see.
Keep in mind most problems like yours are from burs found on the inner left rail that the bolts left lug rides in.

Good Luck on your Homework,
Charlie-Painter777

Charlie I was thinking seeing as the OP's going to go granular on the inspection of the weapons receiver do they have any dyes available in hardware stores bit like the NDT stuff you see for testing for any cracks in the metal.
The reason is the human eye is only so good and if there are microscopic cracks then the dye will show them up, I would hate for them to go unnoticed the rifle fixed only to perhaps fail later due to metal fatigue its only a suggestion but one that has validity I feel, for the OP's peace of mind as well as detecting defects.

Cinders,
Thats included in the 'Plan' but didn't want to INFO OVERLOAD him just yet.
He's probably already upset with this much homework !

Cheers
Charlie-P777

I bought a late Inland M1 hand stamp 6.9M a few years ago that had the exact same left lug damage from a bolt failure. It was the highest Inland M1 serial I had seen yet so I really wanted to keep it, but everyone I spoke to about it said it could not be safely repaired. Folks on the CMP forum thought so as well. Luckily, the seller took it back, though I hated to see it go. I'm afraid you probably have a "wall hanger" on your hands now, which is a real shame.

O.k. I will try and do my homework. It will take a few days as I have time to do it.

I cannot have this much sunk into a wall hanger! As sad as it is, I will have a new receiver and bolt installed if mine is not salvageable and my barrel is O.K.

Hate to see my Rock-Ola receiver go, but no choice if it comes to that!

BTW, anybody know specifics on .22 ammo for an old Quackenbush single shot? I am curious because I read that it only shot .22 shorts, then I read .22 LR, then I read only .22 LR black powder ammo. Anybody have a definitive answer?

Jeff

Also,

Is there anybody out there with the same receiver that could post a few close-up pictures for me of the same area where mine is damaged?

Additionally, pictures looking down from the top focusing on the left hand rail with the bolt out? I am trying to get a strong sense of what that whole left hand side of the receiver should look like.

Mine has some wavy cut outs and I don't know if that's machining or not. Here are a few more pictures of mine.

I really want to see a normal one (particularly the area where mine is damaged), to see just how bad mine is.

Thanks,
Jeff

Here are a couple more super close up pictures of the damage. The white fibers are where I wiped the grease off with a tissue.
Jeff

We can all theorize about how it happened, but nobody saw it...so we don't know. It looks to me that the way the chunk is taken out of the lower side of the left recess, the left lug had not rotated up into position fully engaged with the recess. Maybe the right lug-crack prevented full rotation as it flexed and did not fully rotate, or the case was too long. Having experienced a cracked bolt myself...I am anal about visually checking the engagement, often. Maybe your friend shoots these reloads without issue, but maybe his carbine is head-spaced to handle it. If the other guy's carbine head-spaces at 1.296 or more, he can shoot long cases....maybe yours couldn't. Just for curiosity sake, I'd have to go see him and get some measurements off his sized, trimmed cases. He might appreciate the favor B4 his blows-up in his face?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

After looking at the bottom left guide way that the bolt's left lug rides on top of .... I seen the shape of it and thought it was messed up, with metal missing.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a1parrothead

Mine has some wavy cut outs and I don't know if that's machining or not.

---

You're seeing what I tried to describe in my Quote above from post #9 on page 1. Not knowing any better at that time, I thought that carbine was ruined.

Those wavy cuts allow for the needed left bolt lugs movement, while the bolts right lug is being rotated while attached to the Op slide. One notch on that left rail IIRC allows clearance for the rim of the next casing as it feeds up.

I'll try to put the pictures you requested up Saturday for your comparison.

Charlie-Painter777

From another forum...
This guy had 2 bolts break. In the very end he replaced the Op slide which cured his problem.
Picture is his.... showing the left recess.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_07331-1.jpg

BQ97 Added: The reason your bolt broke is because it momentarily hung while rotating out of battery. The evidence is in the second picture in the first link you posted. When this happens the right lug takes all the strain at an odd angle. Sooner or later the lug cracks then breaks off entirely.

This is the 2nd picture referred to by BQ97. He makes a great point, if the Op Slide had a area it strained over to operate...... Like Burrs... no lube... etc. That's why I say to look over and inspect ANY groove and pivot point

Link to the story:

M1CarbineForum - broken bolt - Powered by ForumCo.com - The Forum Company

a1parrots chip is lower, causing one to give his problem a little deeper thought. Still have those Flattened primers on my mind. Just typing out loud :rolleyes:

You can bet the flattened primers have lots to do...extra op slide speed would do a number on the bolt lug. And raise a welt on the other side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

You can bet the flattened primers have lots to do...extra op slide speed would do a number on the bolt lug. And raise a welt on the other side

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Exactly Jim,
Quicker and harder than my Mother could snap a crab apple switch over my rear end !

Enjoy Your Weekend
CH-P777

Trying Photobucket... Pics of Receiver left rail:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f3p1eeht-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...wivl9gam-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...xgl9sctm-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ybp6oubi-1.jpg


Parrot,
I have more, I'll try to send the Photobucket album to you via a Email

Charlie-Painter777

Flat surface on inside of lug recess
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...xgl9sctm-1.jpg


Below:
Bottom view of 'Wavy' cut on receivers left bolt lug rail
Note the right bottom corner of the bolts left lug support appears to have a 45 degree type angle like a Miter

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ybp6oubi-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by manteo97

What maker's marks were on the bolt, ie who made it?

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Manteo,
His bolt was a round one marked W for WRA. I believe it had the pointed right lug. I'll attach a picture of the Damaged W Type III bolt below.
Here is His first post about his new carbine........ before having the bolt failure:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=63255

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....7&d=1515538463



Charlie-Painter777

Parrot,
Here's a link to my last broken bolt. You might find it interesting to read:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=46709

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3bd2b266-1.jpg

Charlie-Painter777

Charlie,

Thanks for the picture and the link. I read it, and it feels painfully familiar.

If my receiver is salvageable, I think I am going to have 2 bolts properly fitted for it while its at Fulton.

Jeff

I'll try to find time this week and post a new topic IMO and thoughts of how one should set up their 'Used Often' shooter carbine.
Reason being that use of later style parts with there upgrades can be easier on the ole gal.
To include type of Op slide, Op slide spring, Bolt, Sear, Hammer spring, Extractor, Ejector and Firing pin.
I'll list what I'd recommend and look for others opinions and suggestions.

So Parrot.... Don't rush off for a few bolts just yet.

Thx
CH-P777