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Was sorting through a bunch of salvage 8mm ammo while watching NetFlicks and came across an interesting round. I've seen them on the internet but never have seen one in person.
FCPQ 41 Headstamp - Fábrica De Cartuchos e Pólvoras Quimicas, Chelas, Portugal
From what I understand, there's two types...one for training use and one for gallery. Not that common anymore. I think I only have one and it's a 6.5...
Looks like a copy of the German 7.9x57 blank "platzpatrone" used to simulate the sound of firing live ammo. Dangerous to 25 metres. Portugal bought 7.9 cal arms from Germany in 1937 and in WW2.
This cartridge feels and sounds empty, as in no power. I wonder if it's purely powered off the primer.Quote:
Originally Posted by green
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How would you know which is which? I was looking for information on the net, but it's sparse.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
[QUOTE=usabaker;421803]This cartridge feels and sounds empty, as in no power. I wonder if it's purely powered off the primer.[COLOR="black"]
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The German blank was loaded with a wad over the powder. Portugese probably followed German practice.
There are generally two types of blanks; One for noise, and the other to function automatic weapons. Wood bullet blanks are usually for the latter purpose, not for short-range or gallery use.
And they had a separator that went into the barrel? A knife affair that split them up?Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc
I have only heard of the Swedes having something to split them up (on rifles). Even then those only came later in service, initially they just allowed the bullet to disintegrate on its own (after a few accidental deaths I think that's when they changed how they did it).Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Ditto.
This must be where the idea of a gallery cartridge came from...they would actually do damage at distance...
Never saw a reference to wood bullet gallery cartridge. The .303" Canadian Gallery Practice Cartridges used a lead bullet as did the US ones in 30-40, 30-03 and 30-06.
I've only seen reference to it in forum such as this...never in written PAM or CAMT or such...official. So that makes it hearsay or supposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by green
I ran across a thread yesterday which had a link to an e-book that talked about finding crates of the stuff in France. Seems the Germans used the stuff quite a bit and using it for practice makes absolute sense. In the book though, the author makes mention of it being used against British troops in the Caen region of France and that it was not able to be seen in x-rays.
Here is a link:
In the same genre of first person accounts of battle and one of my favorites from WWII, check out “With British Snipers To The Reich” by Captain C. Shore. If you aren’t already fascinated by Brit snipers and sniper “kit” I guarantee that you will be after reading this book:
https://books.google.ca/books/about/...page&q&f=false
There's no way a military group sat down and decided to use wooden bullets to keep them from appearing on X rays. I expect that rumor came from guys having wood driven into their bodies from explosions. Don't care what book it was carried in...
Don't shoot the messenger.... :surrender:Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
now thats funny:lol:
I am sure it has been mentioned here the Bren had a splitter on when using the wooden bullets.
(See pics of rounds & full packet except for the 5 removed)
Several countries if I remember correctly, used a wooden bullet to launch grenades. I think one country that had used them early was Japan but may have given up on them by WW2. I also seem to remember one country in Europe using them also at one time.
I have no idea as to the reality of the story, but I do remember talking to a WWII vet, back in the fifties, who spent a lot of time the Pacific theater. One of his stories was that the Japanese would hide on both sides of a jungle trail, facing each other basically, and shoot wooden bullets across the trail at GIs walking down the trail. The idea was that they were lethal or would inflict severe wounds at the short ranges, but lost momentum so fast that they wouldn’t carry across the trail and thus not hurt their own. This story was offered to supposedly prove how cruel and sneaky the Japanese were. Looking back, and knowing how many wrong “facts” were believed at the time, I doubt it though.
Interesting story, nevertheless. There were so many of these guys around then, all with very fascinating tales. Wish I knew then what I do now, would’ve written a few of them down.
It's not just the facts wrong but time greatly clouds them. I know that for a fact, talking with fellow vets about critical incidents from back in the early days that I've now got twisted...
Called the "Fog of Time" Jim we are as accelerated people through all fairness forget critical points of a story not by design but just the passage of time and subsequent events that are fresher in our minds, though I can distinctly remember 32 years ago a 45 tonne crane I was driving on the side of a hill in winter breaking the ground and sliding side ways down that hill towards a creek near Donnybrook with both sets of steerers facing up hill.
True enough. I even wonder if I’m remembering correctly what the vet said back then. After all, it’s been 65 years ago now!
I have one in 6.5 as well. When I found it at my local GS he had a box full.
Easy to find at the gun shows from the cartridge collector types...but trust me they aren't for combat use...Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield303t
Sorry to burst the 'fog of war' balloon, but the Japanese did use them in the Pacific during WW2 in combat. My Dad brought some back from one of the eleven amphibious landings he was involved in, I believe it may have been when the US retook Corregidor in the Philippine Islands as I know he went ashore there. He had around 6 of the wooden bullet Japanese cartridges, I recall thinking they looked like cannon shells, of course I was pretty young. He advised that the Japanese used them effectively to wound rather than kill, as a wounded soldier took more troops to care for than a deceased one, also the infection they caused. He buried them somewhere on the farm as he advised me he didn't want me or any of my siblings to get ahold of them. Dad said the wooden bullets would cause some terrible wounds, while not killing, but would maim and infection was a real threat. He advised the soldiers and Marines he talked to had a healthy respect for them.
Another myth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jagar
Depends on who's telling the story-----somebody who's 'been there' and knows the real story OR somebody who only garnered their information by being self proclaimed history buffs and/or if they weren't there to witness the information--it's not true. Not putting any label on you Jim, but just saying. Know of plenty of stories by vets that were debunked as myths by those who got all their information through books and/or accounts told by 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc hand. Know of several accounts of so-called 'know the true facts' tellers telling me how something went down when they weren't there, BUT I was. I believe what my Dad told me--he was there and talked to those taking fire and had first hand knowledge from the 'brass' who were in charge of the particular military interventions they were involved in. Respect and enjoy the information you provide but I disagree with you. Have a good day.
Did you fight in the Pacific, sir? I would love to hear some of your stories! It’s not every day we get to hear from a WWII vet!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jagar
The Jalenese using wooden bullets would not be too far fetched, if the wooden bullets were used for training or launching grenades as other have offered it would only make sense they would be used in warfare as anti-personal rounds, especially in the Philippines because by then we had destroyed the imperial navy and cut off resupply abilities so the Japanese would use what ever they had. Like Muslims they were fanatical. This however is just my opinion and as everyone knows opinions are like chocolate starfish, everyone has one.
Nope, didn't say I did, wasn't referring to any WW2/Pacific warfare with the comment you quoted, in fact was born after WW2. Was referring to events from my law enforcement days when someone in my presence was relating facts about incidents I either witnessed or was involved in claiming to know the 'full skinny' on it. Know plenty of Viet Nam vets when hearing about something 'Viet Nam' related tell 'the real skinny' on it if the reporter/relater is off on their facts. Same as my Dad who spent 2 yrs North Atlantic convoy duty in WW2, 6 months in the Med, and 1 1/2 years in the South Pacific relate 'how it really was' when hearing some report on TV, reading a book, magazine article, or hearing someone tell all about it that wasn't at any of his duty locations, giving a 'how it was' comment that wasn't factual. Always fried him as they gained their knowledge 2nd, 3rd, etc hand vs being there. In fact my Dad was dropping depth charges on German U-Boats a number of weeks before Pearl Harbor under orders from FDR on U-boats that were firing torpedo's at American flagged shipping. Not a well known fact, but very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcathey
It's simple, you want it to be true so it is. Any statements about any experience I have can be questioned because this is the internet.
You, the LEO, are accepting hearsay as fact. You know that's not reliable. My experiences don't matter to you.
Oh, sorry about that. I was reading on my lunch break. Must’ve combined some of your comments to assume you had first hand knowledge of the wooden bullets. My bad. Carry on, all!
Just over 3 months prior to Pearl HarbourQuote:
Originally Posted by Der Jagar
September 4th 1941;
At 0840 that morning, Greer, carrying mail and passengers to Iceland, “was informed by a British plane of the presence of a submerged submarine about 10 miles [(16 km)] directly ahead. . . . Acting on the information from the British plane the Greer proceeded to search for the submarine and at 0920 she located the submarine directly ahead by her underwater sound equipment.
The Greer proceeded then to trail the submarine and broadcasted the submarine’s position. This action, taken by the Greer, was in accordance with her orders, that is, to give out information but not to attack.” The British plane continued in the vicinity of the submarine until 1032, but prior to her departure the plane dropped four depth charges in the vicinity of the submarine. The Greer maintained [its] contact until about 1248. During this period (three hours 28 minutes),the Greer maneuvered so as to keep the submarine ahead.
At 1240 the submarine changed course and closed the Greer. At 1245 an impulse bubble (indicating the discharge of a torpedo by the submarine) was sighted close aboard the Greer. At 1249 a torpedo track was sighted crossing the wake of the ship from starboard to port, distant about 100 yards [(100 m)] astern. At this time the Greer lost sound contact with the submarine.
At 1300 the Greer started searching for the submarine and at 1512 . . . the Greer made underwater contact with a submarine. The Greer attacked immediately with depth charges.
FWIW I conducted experiments with wood bullet ammo, .303" P14 rifle, bullets made from 5/16" solid hardwood dowel and Unique powder.
They were a good blank in that they were loud and fed from the mag.
Accuracy 3 of 5 shots hit 2' square target at 20'.
Penetration 1/4-5/16" at 10' in cardboard box packed with phone books.
Fired over fresh snow max range was about 35 yards and splinters on snow showed some bts were breaking up.
Really cool write up!, did you turn the dowels down on a lathe? Just curious how balanced they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by green
Bought the dowels at a lumber yard. Shot some with ends cut square and others sharpened to feed through mag. Made no difference in performance, all struck target sideways.Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
IMHO combination of battle dress and great coat would be proof against wood bullets.
They might break bare skin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green
So, not much at all then...agreed, any vegetation of the jungle would also disrupt them.Quote:
Originally Posted by green
So maybe my old veteran friend was right after all. The evidence I see here does seem to support it.
Don't think it does... There's no evidence here anyway, just discussion. One man has first hand testimony disproving feasibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by bob4wd
To me it would indicate that they were being used by the Japanese to launch grenades with and not as normal combat ammo.
I scrounged the net for info on this matter of the IJA using these things and could find no conclusive evidence to support the statement of the crossfire claim with wooden bullets.
If you have a blue on blue in an ambush well that's just tough should have planned your fields of fire a bit better but the Japs killing themselves I do not think the GI's would have minded one iota.
The forum knows I horde books, my passion is Aust WWI first Ed's in H/C whilst a slow and expensive passtime I assure you the ones that are written in the first person by the ones that were there are not embellished with the journo's wild imagination on how it was, they are graphic in detail of what happened to them and all their trials and camaraderie which I feel makes the complete picture.
I have a S/C called "Strike From The Sky" about their bombing of the factories in WWII Britain by the Luftwaffe and it is rather a surprising book as it is as close to the real thing graphically in words that you can get of women factory workers and men who met their demise at the end of a bomb blast.
I read because I want to try and understand what the people of those generations went through as my father never spoke of his WWII 4 years overseas on land and I am not a blood and guts person either I saw enough blood gushing out of cows necks & handling nice & hot cow hearts when I worked on the slaughter floor of an abattoir then in their offal room.
This tread title kept popping up with new posts long enough to remind me to find the box of 8mm ammo with wooden projectiles.
Appear to be Egyptian. Photos to follow.
Photos.
J&G Sales has Wooden Projectiles 6.5x55 Swedish box and Belted 200rds for
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rojectil-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...denproje-1.jpg
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Those Egyptian rounds look cool, Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY
I see the both the above posts rounds support staked primer pockets (#43, #44 pic 2) they used faster burning powder due to the projectiles light weight equating higher operating pressure aiding in cycling a S/A or getting the grenage if used for that purpose to its destination.
Not a cool as the 6.5x55. Might just have to pick a few up. I think I have the "shredder" attachment for the rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
Agreed, never seen a belt of them...Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY
A really funny post . If I may add some facts to it . Japanese ammo #1 Blank , a wooden , or later , rolled paper bullet - purpose to make noise upon firing for training . #2 short range target practice , a tin or aluminum cup bullet [ like the swede stuff ] - purpose 7 meter target practice . # 3 Grenade launching blank , NO bullet star crimped neck - purpose to launch rifle grenades . I have a large Japanese ammo collection that includes all of the above . I have a Japanese rifle grenade launcher and have launched grenades . I have fired several types of military ammo with wooden bullets indoors using a few sheets of packing cardboard to stop them at 7 yards and they are always tumbling . I would figure you would have to be within 5 feet to really hurt someone with them . Sorry but a lot of old vets do not remember well . I had one old guy tell me how the Japanese could shoot our 30/06 out of their rifles , and that he himself did it .
Sounds like a rear echelon guyQuote:
Originally Posted by bob q
All this wooden bullet talk reminded me how I used to make wax bullets for shooting in the basement if I recall effective range about 10-15 ft. Primer power only, and if I recall fairly accurate, Ray
I did that too, 38spl.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayg