Anybody know how many L42's went to the Falklands? Which companies used them? Have seen some pictures with S&B's - was that common for just this campaign? Ron( Canada)
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Anybody know how many L42's went to the Falklands? Which companies used them? Have seen some pictures with S&B's - was that common for just this campaign? Ron( Canada)
I never heard of S&B's going down there but others might say so. I'd want evidence though!
I'm not even certain the S&B scopes as we know them were even in service at that time Peter? It was always my understanding that the S&B scope everyone associates with the L42 bracket was developed for the L96?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
See night vision on a number of L42's in various pictures. Approx which year did the L42 see the S&B?
Anyone know which command used the L42 in the Falklands?
Just trying to get some history - not much about the L42 role in this conflict?
Thanks
Ron(Canada)
Yes, have seen one picture showing nightvision on a L42 which purports to have been taken in the FI in 1982.Quote:
Originally Posted by rgg_7
Not sure what you mean by which command used the L42?
All units of the Paras, RM and as well as Guards etc., would have had the L42.
There was at least one L42 among the detachment of just 22 x RM's that defended South Georgia, which the Marine used to good effect in the attack on the Argentinian Navy Corvette by putting accurate shots through the bridge glazing.
This photo was taken minutes before the Argentine attack started, the RM with L42 can be seen 2nd from right kneeling.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7_634x37-1.jpg
I think it's fair to say both of these L42 have been put to good use.
GOOD GOD NOT THE GEESE...... They were a protected bird when I was there in the 90's.....
The one getting run over by the Hamm roller did not go down well
To my knowledge, there were no S&B scopes down south fitted to L42's, just the No 32 scopes etc.
As said, didn't the S&B come into service with the L96, some years after the Falklands war?
Well that confirms it ......no S&B's....on L42's issued for the Falkland 1982 Conflict. See the campaign was conducted by "3 Commando Brigade". Which units used the L42's? Hope I've got the termonolgy correct. Ron (Canada)
Hi Ron,
The numbers below were those L42 war scales as issued to trained snipers in each Battalion and for information non were left at home!!!:
6 with 2 PARA
6 with 3 PARA
6 with 1/7TH Gurkha Rifles
6 with 40 Commando
6 with 42 Commando
6 with 45 Commando
6 with 2 Scots Guards
6 with 1 Welsh Guards
All units under the banner of 3 Commando Brigade.
In terms of IWS, here are two photos one mounted on a GPMG 2 Scots on the top of Tumbledown and the other a shot for prosterity 40 Commando use. Hope that helps
Here is an image of one of the 1/7th Gurkhas zeroing his L42 on Ascension before leaving for the Falkland Islands which I have.
I am surprised that somebody has not bought up the walking / talking tree (ghillie suit) incident / legend. If it is true the counter sniping would have been with an L42. Anybody help me with this? I would have to dig through archives to find where it was written up last...memory is fading..
The walking bush incident is from A Soldier's Song by Ken Lukowiak from 2 Para. One of my favourite military books ever. It was retold by Martin Pegler in his Out of Nowhere book.
I am far from expert but have read widely on the Falklands. Although this is a generalization most combat occurred at night at relatively short ranges. Essentially the British "advanced to contact" as stealthily as possible to get close to Argentinian fixed defensive positions and then win through surprise and aggression.
I have come across a few photos of L42 armed soldiers but definitely no S&B. There are very few descriptions of the L42 being used. The above being a notable exception. The only 2 other mentions I can recall are of rounds being fired at the A69 class frigate Guerrico during the defence of South Georgia. See Operation Paraquat by Roger Perkins. There is also an account of an L42 being chucked in a stream in favour of a captured FAL but I have been unable to find the original source and find this an unlikely story anyway....
55Recce,
Yes rounds were placed carefully through the "Captains" window on the frigade, which is a true story, fired by the Commando sniper on SG.
The story of the L42 being chucked into a river to exchange it for FAL was started by someone on this site if I remember correctly, who had heard it from someone, and proved to be atotal fable.
There was (is) no way, a British soldier, regardless of unit, would cast his personal weapon aside, for that of an enemies. He may use it, but he certainly would keep his own issued weapon.
With every conflict come tales of Dumbledore and Harry Potter..............and that was one!! ;)
Attachment 90373Attachment 90374Attachment 90375
Here are some more from '82
I’m currently working on a book about a century of British military sniping and in the course of my researching all manner of items I have spoken with many people, a great many of whom were snipers back in the day. An item I was keen to get to the bottom of is the SF bracket for mounting the S&B scope on the L42. When the L96 ran into trouble 14 maintenance advisory group carried out a feasibility study of mounting the S&B on both the L42 and L39 and for the L42 modified two no32 brackets and had two commercially manufactured brackets produced. They recommended the use of the L13A1 S&B regardless.
Prior to this the SAS produced their own bracket of which ITDU were completely unaware of and is available today in very small numbers of which all are unpainted for service. I spoke with a forma SAS sniper who recalls the brackets and he says they were never anything other than a trials and development item.
I have encountered two brackets identical to the SAS brackets that were painted black and do indeed look like they have had a service life but having spoken with a number of RM’s and SBS I can not find anyone who recalls them. I would suggest the L13 did not serve a single day on the L42.
Thank you all for a very interesting thread. The wealth of knowledge shared on this forum is first grade stuff; much appreciated.
I am pretty sure the L42 dumped in the stream story did not originate in this thread. I think I read it in a book somewhere before joining this forum. As I recall the rationale was a fogged up scope and a bolt action rifle being pretty much useless in the close quarter night battles that almost exclusively dominated the Falklands campaign. The story went on to say that the person responsible acquired an Argentinian FAL and found the full auto option to be very useful (as did a few others).
I have been unable to find this story again as it only occupied a few lines and I have about 90 books on the Falklands war. Still seems pretty unlikely to me, but it does seem that at least a couple of people here must have read the same book at some time....
The snipers were all issued SMG's as their secondary weapon, so not sure why you would want to hang yourself on completion of the task, having slung your L42 away. Each Battalions HQ formation would have taken it in and given him a spare SLR if it was wrecked, otherwise the one I have now used by 2 SCOTS and written off at the time would never have made it back to the UK for a full service!
Here are the markings on my L42 transit chest from what I gather it should have been in the Falklands as the unit was the Scots guards and the sniper who's name in the box was there
It's hard to visualize any situation in which a British Army Soldier would throw away his issued firearm, let alone a highly trained Sniper...
The only situation I could conceive is if he was compromised and his weapon was U/S, thus he was forced to drop it and pick up an alternative to defend himself.
I have never really understood the point of full auto on a light barrel standard Fal ... Rounds 1 and 2 on target, then 3 to 20 fired into the clouds!
How about you are getting shot at and are holding a useless weapon? I think that would be sufficient motivation!
However, I would like to respectfully point out that I am not endorsing this story. Merely suggesting that its origins are in a book somewhere and not the imagination of a forum member.
55recce,
Having trawled here is the thread from elsewhere on the site where it was mentioned:
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The book referring to the Falkland conflict, and the L42 being dumped in the stream is “Out of Nowhere - A history of the military sniper” by Martin Pegler on page 289 references 278. I agree with Peter and with Gil, not handing in a rifle you were issued with, broken or not is the worse kind of crime in the MOD armed forces.
As Peter correctly states the L42 had done two life times, 1945 – 1992 in the case of my the L42’s.
Who has this book, and can check as to which unit or individual is alledged to have chucked it away please!!!
Simon,
I am sure will corroberate the fact that there is only one of the L42's showing as written off/missing off his list during the Falklands War, and that is Nigel Ayres rifle of 2 Scots, who was hit in the back on Tumbledown Mt and his L42 action took a direct hit. I know that as I have that rifle now and he got to shoot it last year.
I think the whole 'throwing the rifle away' is called 'artistic licence'
Agree wholly with Roy and others. Another choice phrase is 'total bxxxxxxs'
Peter,
Ironically, it is your name that was placed on the official lists as the ONLY entry for Falklands War L42's written off or lost/damaged next to the the L42 I own which was Nigel Ayre's in 2 Scots, and you and I have discussed this subject before.......before......before :lol:
Official L42 Records show: P.L. (Peter Laidler)- Scots Guards Falklands Loss.
Nigel,
had it slung across his back, and the strike probably saved his life, but he was using the Sterling on the attack his secondary weapon.
I concur, only one L42 listed as a a Falklands loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Unconnected I know but there's also an entry regarding one of the converted Savage rifles which states "written off 5 Queens (run over)" wonder how many times he mopped up the rain on the Parade Square for that one?:lol:
I wonder if someone used a throw away comment down south like "I'd chuck it in the river for two pins, can't seem to get close enough" and from their the legend sprung!!!
I see to recall a photo of a survivor from the Sir Galahad on the beach with an L42.
Each Battalion had 6, so good chance of that.
L/Sgt Coull named on the L42 chest doesn't appear to have fought down south. Also Nige Ayres states "NEVER saw one river on that island for it to be tossed into".............good point!!
Just further confirmation of writers embelishment I'm afraid, or a tip from someone who clearly doesn't know!!
so the rifle must have had a shattered stock in the action area??Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
I can't think of any other damage which would be repairable?
does the rifle show any sign of the damage?
Nigel can't remember too much for obvious reasons on the night as he was casevaced, but he was hit in the back/neck area and the rifle was certainly wacked on the action, and attributed for saving his life. He said they couldn't pull the bolt rearwards from memory, so it was definitely the action that took the strike, but it did come home with him.
The action on it now is numbered the same but clearly blued and a first class job by REME on return. Dont forget they still had a period to serve, (10 years) until the L96/M85 came out of the woodwork for trials and replacement. It appears there must have been a shortfall, and the damage repairable in someones mind, otherwise why would they have wasted any time on it?
What about that RM L42 on South Georgia, as from memory those Marines were repatriated back to UK after negociated surrender, including being disarmed and thus the Argentinians took that L42 and it would therefore be a 'loss'..........?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossin
Hi mossin L/Sgt Colin Coull Scots Guards mentioned in the book “victory in the Falkland” and “amongst friends : Scots guards” I’ve seen l42 chest with yellow paint saying 2SG in black marker pen.
Dan/Mossin,
Nigel did not think he went south with them. But memories are memories after 36 years and he could be wrong of course!
Gill I bow to your knowledge on that. I don’t know if Coull was in falklands at time of 82 but mentioned as a reference I think below
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fIWjAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT289&lpg=PT289&dq=l/sgt+colin+coull&source=bl&ots=l9IViUbDUU&sig=tRDV9Q_iczUPt9ATMfeK9LFWtlE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiW-9yk8YXZAhUhLcAKHc5ACm4Q6AEwDnoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=l%2Fsgt%20colin%20coull&f=false
Some more photos have some of the SG someware...
Redirect Notice
https://www.gettyimages.in/detail/news-photo/british-soldiers-leave-southampton-aboard-the-rms-queen-news-photo/607439454#british-soldiers-leave-southampton-aboard-the-rms-queen-elizabeth-2-picture-id607439454
A request to those that know what goes on in the Royal Navy.
Would Royal Marine stocks have been listed within their orbat during the Falklands..............and would REME have had them back for any repairs or have they their own lads in Plymouth or Pompy???
Dan that photo is of the Scots Guards and the old sweat with the faceveil carrying the chest. Be interested to know who that was?
"I had no oil on mine and in the constant wet the bolt got stiffer and stiffer. It lost its zero, then the scope fogged up. I got so exasperated with it that I dumped it in a stream and carried a captured Argie FN for the rest of the battle, which worked out just fine out to four or five hundred yards."
From Out of Nowhere - A History of the Military Sniper by Martin Pegler Osprey Publishing 2004 Page 289.
The source for this is cited as personal interview with Vincent Bramley. He wrote 2 books- Excursion to Hell about his own experiences as a Lance Corporal in 3 Para during the battle of Mount Longdon, and Two Sides of Hell with further recollections of the battle of Mount Longdon from 8 Argentinian soldiers from the 7th Infantry Regiment and 5 British Paratroopers.
Both books are quite good and seem accurate.
Among Friends: The Scots Guards 1956-1993 page 148 mentions a Sgt Coull
Among Friends: The Scots Guards 1956-1993 - Murray Naylor - Google Books
Mossin,
We'll have to chalk it up as memory fade I'm afraid, two of them can't remember seeing him there, but I understand he was Recce Trp so that may account for it. Clearly a Coull was there, and its not like his name was Smith is it, thats quite rare!!
55Recce,
Very interested to know who that was and which unit gave the reference, odd Pegler never clarified that when he wrote it to save a lot of conjecture, when in fact it may not have happened. The statement is a crucial one, and one which I would have thought he would have said who said it and when. One has to assume his scope was waterproofed, and he cleaned it correctly, like hundreds of thousands of British & Commonwealth soldiers have done before him on Lee Enfields!!:
"I had no oil on mine and in the constant wet the bolt got stiffer and stiffer. It lost its zero, then the scope fogged up. I got so exasperated with it that I dumped it in a stream and carried a captured Argie FN for the rest of the battle, which worked out just fine out to four or five hundred yards."
From Out of Nowhere - A History of the Military Sniper by Martin Pegler Osprey Publishing 2004 Page 289.
Thanks to DanL96a1 for this research on Nige's exploits:
Click on the second image on the right with the two medals in it
Redirect Notice
Skimmed but did not read "Two Sides" of Hell last night.
One of the 5 British Paras interviewed for the book is named as sniper Jerry Phillips. Other snipers mentioned by name are young Dickie Absalon, Bill Hayward and Kev Capon. Anyone studying sniper operations in the Falklands should consider buying this book as Jerry Phillips contributes quite a bit on sniper operations.
The book was published by Bloomsbury Publishing as a hardback First Edition in 1994. I think I have seen a paperback version.
I have my doubts about the L42 in the river account, I have spoken to people who have used, and maintained the L42A1 All seem to have “liked” it and hold it in high regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Speaking to someone who was there, about this said even if the bolt was hard to operate the application of even “organic” oils / grease would have helped. The same person also had “optical” issue whilst in the Falklands, with more technical equipment and overcame operational issues to keep working.
I was interested to see if the normal servicemen, respected the rifles and trusted them. Or weather the rose tinted glasses of time, were to make it the legend it has become! I think generations of armed service men cannot be all wrong
Ironically I knew Kev Capon through work, he once told me he was involved in the trials for the L96A1. Kev ended up as an army photographer and was awarded an MBE for his work.Quote:
Originally Posted by 55recce
Thinking about past discussions with him he told me that sniping operations in the British army was to have a major rethink after the Falklands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Gil, I was probably the one who mentioned the Martin Pegler story many moons ago on here.............. regarding the RN and RM, the training for Armourers at one point was at HMS Colingwood, I know a few lads who were with the RFA who had to do a basic Weapon Maintenance course there which covered quite a few weapons, in fact the restricted Manual they get is a very good book ....... wished I brought it with me as there is info in it that could be quite helpful to me at present as I'm enjoying the cold and snow at B***S ...........
Geoff,
Thanks for that. I assumed there would be our REME equivalent and I suppose Peter L would know them personally in his time at Warminster, however, ALL my dealings with the Royal Marines have always been that they are very insular and would rather deal with their own, and the Royal Navy budget, which in itself is far greater than the Armys.....which is fact.
Not sure where it is now as Ministers try to merge us all under one budget, against massive resistance of the Admirals and those that know how much power they hold with their own budget away from the Army. We have had the sword of Damocles hung over our Parachute Regiment head, as have the Royal Marines, where they are trying to merge us all together. That clearly comes from those at Whitehall, who have never seen an angry man, other than on their iPads!!! Don't want to go off on a rant, but that will never happen in my humble opinion. Totally different jobs for different formations.
I spoke to Nige Eyre last night the Scots Guards sniper wounded on Mt Tumbledown.............he encapsulated the story of the L42 being slung away into a river "that would be the ultimate disgrace for any sniper"
Says it all in my opinion
Well said Gil, these ideas of merging the Green and Maroon into one unit is ridiculous...
Let's hope some common sense prevails ... I am of course making the assumption that the shiny arsed people at the top have any common sense!
John,
They are ALWAYS guided by a good RSM, which I know only too well.
I still have a General phone me for advice, but I don't mind in the least, what have I too lose :thup:
Perhaps some additional research could be done. I have found a contact for Mr. Pegler online and have sent a query to him. I will let you know if any response is received. I believe that Mr. Pegler is a well known historian and sniper subject matter expert, so it would be surprising for him to include this quote without some justification.
In the meantime is anyone in the UK able to track down Vince Bramley, Jerry Phillips or records for 3 Para? If 6 L42 went down south and only 5 came back would there be a record of this somewhere? Would an inquiry to the Para museum provide any results? Airborne Assault - The Museum of The Parachute Regiment and Airborne Forces | ParaData.
Could someone contact the Regimental association 3 Para Reunio Club - Homepage
Perhaps a little legwork would produce more results than keyboard speculation!
I'll be speaking to Jerry to put this thing to bed, and as a Trustee at our Museum I will check when I am next in, but don't think that sort of point would be recorded!!
Addition: I have just checked through the L42 lists of rifles, and the only one earmarked as a potential right off during the Falklands War, is the one I hold which was rebuilt. There are no other entries to say that a rifle was lost, but a couple that were damaged a few years earlier than the war of 82.
Donnington was clearly the disposal location, but there is no mention of Royal Marines at all on the lists, so I have to assume (probably wrongly) that they have their own as mentioned earlier.
Simon might like to corroberate that.
I have received a reply directly from Martin Pegler which was very quick. In due consideration I have asked him to confirm that he is comfortable with me posting this which I will do as soon as I can....
Oh I don't know Gil, merging the Para's and the Marines might be a good idea?
After all you might finally be able to go toe to toe with the RAF Regiment. :madsmile:
:lol::lol::lol: Simon, I have ALWAYS rated the "Rock Apes", (for those not aware, named thereafter because they spent too much time in Gibralter in days gone by, where it is swamped with monkees) not RMP either :lol:
SFSG at St Athen as you know are formed from 1 PARA/Royal Marines Company and one of the RAF Regiment Company strength. They now work non stop in the sand, and not every married man's cup of tea!!
Here is the reply I received from Martin Pegler and include here with his permission
"An interesting question, I assume Vince is no longer here to answer for himself ? Well, allowing for the passage of 14 years all I can recall is that I was showing him the L42’s and other sniping rifles in the collection at the Royal Armouries, and musing over how effective they were, when he piped up with the story about getting so sick of his not working that he dumped it. I thought it worth including in the book because it was such an unusual tale, but I’m afraid I can’t elaborate on it. He said he used an Argentinian folding-stock SLR to good effect though it was not a long range rifle, but I never thought to ask how he explained away the loss of his L42 ! I can see that as a sniper, lugging a useless rifle around in those conditions would have been pointless, perhaps circumstances dictated he could do nothing else with it. He did after all, need a working rifle.
He had several other stories regarding Argentinian snipers that I was sworn to secrecy about and I’d have loved to have been able to tape my interview, but I could only make notes at the time. I doubt that this sheds more light on the question, but thank you for taking the trouble to contact me about it. I’m amazed that the story has caused such a debate !"
There are some other things that we may wish to consider before drawing a conclusion:
1. Vince Bramley is not without controversy in his writing. It also includes 2 other rumours that have been widely investigated but not proven. One is that American mercenaries were used as snipers by the Argentinians (this seems very unlikely). The second being that these men or perhaps others that were captured were summarily executed. This was investigated by the British Police but no proof found. However others have contended that this story is true.
2. After the Falkands conflict Bramley transferred to the Royal Army Ordnance Corp. He was convicted of possession of pyrotechnics and sentenced to 3 year's imprisonment during which he wrote Excursion to Hell.
3. It is interesting to speculate where the story originated and who may have dumped his L42. In Two Sides of Hell Bramley names 5 of the presumably 6 snipers with 3 Para and draws heavily from interviews with Jerry Phillips. Phillips was badly wounded in the arm and Richard Absolon (another sniper named) was killed by Argentinian shell fire the day after the battle of Mount Longdon. Bramley himself was a GPMG gunner and not a sniper which makes the use of "I" in the original quote from Pegler's book troublesome.
4. It is interesting to speculate when this incident happened. Access to a replacement Argentinian weapon is most likely to have occurred during/after the Battle of Mount Longdon. Though it is just possible that it happened on the march up. The battle itself occurred on the night of 11 June and the war ended shortly after.
5. Most stories get bigger in the telling. Perhaps elements of it are true. Perhaps one of the L42s did become unserviceable in the cold, wet and rugged battlefield conditions. It has been well documented that Argentinian weapons were captured and used and were also acquired as souvenirs. Perhaps this occurred and the owner wished that he was able to dump his useless L42 rather than carry 2 weapons. I have been in a similar situation myself on exercise here in Canada when one of my fellow soldiers was medically evacuated. Having to carry 2 C7 rifles and other gear was very taxing to say the least.
There is a valuable lesson here in that even fairly recent history from a well documented war contains many anomalies that will likely never be fully resolved. We should maintain a healthy discourse and research as carefully as we can from as many different sources as we can in all circumstances.
55Recce,
Thanks for the answer and your efforts which are appreciated............which leaves me in the same point of view.
As I said, there are non missing in Army hands, having checked the lengthy list several times. Several damaged that had been ridden over and the 2 SCOTS one on Mt Tumbledown which recieved a direct hit. I am going to put this down to one man's rant!! nothing more I'm afraid.
I know for a fact in Afghanistan a L115A2 .338 was badly damaged in an explosion at Kajaki. The rifle was in bits, and in many experienced Small Arms Corps views easier to write off. It came back and was returned to service soon after. I know it isn't a fluid battle like the Falklands, but the comment from the sniper when I told him the L42 tale, he said it would have been looked at as "Disgraceful" and the individual would have never lived it down, let alone hold a rifle again, and would definitely in PARA Reg been sent for a holiday to the Army Corrective Training Centre on his return. Thats how serious it would have been viewed.
Still waiting for Jerry to give me a ring and will feed back his view!
Added later:
Most snipers had a Sterling to hand most of the time!
I first heard that rumour/story around Christmas 1982 firsthand direct from a Rockape who was out there with the Rapier missile squadron.Quote:
Originally Posted by 55recce
To my understanding a sniper would have been a trained shooter and as their task would have been longer range interdiction, the 27-1/2" barrel and longer sight radious and better sights of the L42 would have resulted in the use of the L42 with open sights.
GeeRam,
The mercenary story, started as a recce of sniper trained Paras crawled forward on Longdon as close as they could get, and heard some lads talking in broken U.S twang Argentinian nothing more than that, like most kids who have spent anytime in the States sound.
Nothing more to that other than lots of embelishment by those who weren't there I'm afraid after the event making a good tale.
There's another photo that was taken in front of Govt House when the RM's surrendered to the Buzo T with one of the RM L42's laid down in front of two of the RM snipers, one of which, Terry Pares is wearing an old '59 Patt Denison smock.
On the American Mercenary crap, this is stated by a ranking Argentinian Officer in his own words which sums it up:
THERE WERE NO US MERCENARIES IN THE CONFLICT.
Is a myth. The english got confused because argentine officers and commandos spoke english with american accent.
English is taught in the Military College of the Nation (Officers Academy). The commandos in the Argentine Army were founding members of the School of the Americans, teaching to latinamerican armies to fight the communist guerrillas.
Major Aldo Rico is known for insult the british in english when they fought against him, and most probably the origin of the myth.
I don't know if the stories of the sniper who threw his rifle to use an assault rifle were true, or if any sniper fell in combat. But I can say that I saw that an Argentine veteran has a very deteriorated L42 No32 sight that was brought back when he returned in a C 130 prior to the surrender. I hope I can contact him again to tell me the story
There was an L42A1 in use at Top Malo House by the fire support group of MAWC. He made the comment that the 7.62 rounds were knocking people over whilst the 5.56 were going straight through!
This seems a little unlikely. 2 Argentinians were killed and 4 wounded in this battle. It seems that M72s and M79s did most of the damage so the suggestion that 7.62 rounds were knocking people over and 5.56 were going straight through does not match contemporary accounts
Some research is always better than speculation which just tend to lead to unfounded rumours such as the ditched L42 and the American snipers which have both been repeatedly dismissed as untrue..
Skirmish at Top Malo House - Wikipedia
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/roy...s-29b6219ec867
So the guy who had the L42 and told me the story was telling porkies! He was dating the daughter of my godfather. He was wounded in the action. His first shot was at a window pane so that he could check his zero. One of the Argentine casualties was shot 9 times with an M16 before he went down. A link in the sources from the Wikipedia article you mention mentions him:
Britain's Small Wars - When Boswell judged they were close enough to the house and in full view of their support fire group, he gave the order 'fix bayonets'. Boswell fired a green mini-flare, the signal for the fire group to fire six 66 mm light anti-armour rockets at the house. As the first rocket was fired, an Argentine sentry moved to the window on the upper floor. A Corporal, armed with a sniper rifle, shot him. As the 66 mm rockets slammed into the house it burst into flames; Boswell and the assault group charged forward, halted, fired two 66s into the house and charged again. The enemy ran from the house into a small streambed about 50 meters away, firing as they ran. One Marine Sergeant fell, hit through the shoulder, and then a Corporal fell hit through the chest. The ammunition stacked in the house exploded as the assault group ran forward and the smoke from the burning building shielded them from the enemy lying in the stream firing at them. The firefight went on for a few minutes as the assault group worked their way towards the enemy. The officer commanding the Argentine force tried to run off and was killed by two 40mm rounds fired from M79 grenade launchers. The Argentines stood up and threw away their weapons. It was over.
Obviously we are all wrong - thanks for casting doubt on my and their accounts.
Nige,
Sadly Stevie Groves was a close friend of mine, he was in fact that soldier, RIP as he died last year after a long battle of his own in South Africa.
He was shot through the shoulder but "always" a very good sniper. He was hit by a random burst as the Argentinians clambered out of Top Malo.
For our book FALKLANDS WAR: SNIPERS DOWN SOUTH being released on Goose Green day 28th May this year, I interviewed or contacted nearly all those soldiers who were issued L42's in the conflict. Not one man said he lost his rifle, nor did they chuck them away as mentioned by Martin Pegler in one of his books.
The consequences would have been unspeakable when you got back home or back together as a Battalion throwing away "your" issue weapon, when "you" as the few trained men, could have been called to use it later!! so in short not true I'm afraid.
If indeed an Argentinian soldier reckons he took one home with him, knowing they had a variety of sniper rifles anyway, let him prove it.
Strange, but if I was he, I would take great pleasure in displaying it and waving it in the face of the enemy following the war, don't you think??!!!
and...............did Argentina have any L42's of their own bearing in mind the UK Government supplied them with lots of kit long before the war started thinking they were a friendly lot!!
Fastback, One for you, a photo would be nice and also the serial number of this alledged "British" throwaway so I can check with the Regiment to authenticate this myth!
The published story of the invasion indicates that an L42 was used to delay an Argy ship.Quote:
Originally Posted by fastback
I have also seen photos that seem to indicate that the British had at least 1 L42 on the island prior to the Invasion, and that it was surrendered to/captured by the Argies.
Usually i believe that there are more than 1 sniper (and related equipment) in a unit?
I cover that fully in my book as it was a corvette GUERRICO in Grytviken harbour in South Georgia and the L42 rifleman was trained sniper WO2 Peter Leach. This segment best describes the action:
WO2 Leach was in fact, capable of putting a hole in the center of a man’s forehead at 1,000m using the L42A1 who came top of his course.
Leach was armed that day with the right weapon for that job: the L42A1 rifle. A conversion of the Lee–Enfield No. 4, Mk. 1(T), the L42A1 was chambered for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge and mounted with the 3.5-power No. 32 scope. Lying on the table on the second floor, the Sergeant Major placed the post of his reticle on the approaching ship’s bridge. By then, Guerrico was once again facing the channel and closing on King Edward Point. A moment later, as the other Royal Marines began hammering away at the ship for a second time, Sergeant Major Leach began firing carefully aimed shots at the vessel. He directed his opening rounds at the five windows across the front of the bridge. At this point, only Captain Alfonso, the helmsman, and the quartermaster were manning that station as glass began to shatter. The three men were forced to crouch down behind ship’s structures to avoid being struck by the rapid succession of accurate shots coming from Leach’s sniper rifle.
There was a lull in the Royal Marine gunfire as Guerrico moved behind the cover of the buildings of the British Antarctic Survey station, but it did not last long. Sergeant Major Leach, who no longer had a shot, seized that opportunity to move to another position. He broke out another window, and then resumed firing – this time at the three windows on the port side of the ship’s bridge. The sound of shattering glass could be heard once again as Leach dumped more well aimed sniper fire in on the quartermaster, the helmsman, and Captain Alfonso. Then Guerrico came out from behind the British Antarctic Survey station buildings and the rest of the Royal Marines opened-up once again.
They raked the ship from stem to stern with another barrage of automatic weapons fire, and Dave Combes launched a second 84mm round from the Carl Gustav. That round slammed into Guerrico’s Exocet anti-ship missile launcher knocking it out of commission. During the last few moments, as the ship retreated out of small arms range, Sergeant Major Leach moved to a third window on the second floor of Shackleton House, and threw a few parting shots at Guerrico as it limped past King Edward Point. The ship had survived running the gauntlet, but by then it was listing to starboard, and it looked like a colander. When Guerrico approached King Edward Cove, it was a well-armed and dangerous warship. Not even fifteen minutes later, the ship was little more than a floating wreck in desperate need of repairs.
I will ask him for more information and detailed pictures...
If nothing else - that scope is back to front in its bracket!
There were L42's seized at Gritvyken and Stanley, there are photos of the surrender at Stanley with at least one L42 on the floor. Quite feasable he nicked an L1A1 off one of those. The turrets are correct for an L1A1 as is the engraving on the side of the tube. A war souveneir
Roy,
You are probably right, but the "records" show no "L42A1's were lost, and only one was written off on Mount Tumbledown which is my current rifle which I know for example, was strapped over the back of L/Cpl Nige Eyre of 2 SCOTS when he took a strike to the action and injured him on the assault, as he was hit in the neck from debris from it.
You can only go by provenance like that and track it back or forwards to authenticate something as precious as an issue specialist rifle!!
The particular entry on that MOD L42A1 list was made by Peter Laidler so I would put 100% credibility on that, as the rifle was repaired from being written off as a direct hit on the action and put back in the system.
Scopes would probably have been swiped of rifles as an easy to unscrew item and put under an Argie Parka or used to gain an optical advantage for a soldier, who knows, but I was told that all weapons were returned at the end of the war!
I already wrote to the veteran to give details of how he obtained that scope and photos to track him down (I wish he responds, for many, it is not easy to talk about this times ), so he is a member of the Marine Corps commandos. The scope looks in very bad condition, as it saw some combat or dropped it does not seem feasible to me that it was captured on April 2 (by order there was no intention of causing English casualties and the combat was limited) also if a sniper rifle had been captured it would have been kept original and send to continent as a war treasure or used as a sniper rifle, it would not have been allowed to appropriate parts (here in the museums there are somes enfield rifles captured in falklands) .This brings to mind a story about a argentine of a unit that saw intense action in combat that use a SMLE (almost crazy as mad jack churchill with his sword), I hope to put together a post about it.
Please note that I have not accused anyone of telling porkies or saying that you are all wrong. Please do not put your words in my mouth.
I very carefully used the term "This seems a little unlikely" based on the accounts that I could find and urged research so that information which has been proved incorrect (American snipers and ditched L42) is not further perpetuated.....
Fastback,
The image shows two Kukris crossed as well as the scope, I would liked to have seen the Argentinian soldier try and take those two from its wearers down south.
They were waiting for blood!! :lol::lol:
Well, if we look at the number of casualties except for those of the Belgrano cruiser, we find that both sides suffered a very similar number, as some british soldier said...no picnic, therefore both sides fought with courage, of course, the one that made the least mistakes wins the battle, and the military junta had no plan to the islands after April 2 ...they left the soldiers without supplies, without long-range guns to face the fleet (in the last days 155 mm arrived but there was little ammunition and they could not be moved) and worse still the stupidity to refuse deploy the a4 skyhawk in the islands (every jet should travel 700km to atack the fleet, thats ridiculous..but thanks to the pilots they sunk 7 ships and hit another 15 ! ) , the invention of the mm38 itb that damaged the glamorgan would have come very well if it were available on May 1 and not when it was too late ... As for the ornamentation where the scope appears It is just that, a grouting of militaria from the former commando he is not a collector, various miscellaneous pieces without any historical value. Of course, the Kukri are not from Malvinas (but maybe from Blue Helmets peacekeeping missions as in Haiti where the Gurka exchange them for anything). As I understand the Gurkha did not fight except for some skirmish in the final days. On the other hand, the scope L42 that was brought from the Falklands, I think it has a great value at least for us to know how it got into their hands and why the assembly is upside down or the fixing screws are missing
why is it so beaten without a turret and rusty ... Let's keep the study seriously and Without fanaticism ... enough time has passed so that there are no grudges (England always had many ties to Argentina, railways, customs such as tea and polo that are here regardless of the conflict)
It appears the scope was deliberately vandalized before being either surrendered - and later left in an exposed dump of captured weapons - or else buried or hidden somewhere. Clearly the big dent on the ocular end could be accidental, (though highly unlikely), but the missing drum would mean someone wrenched it off past the grub screw - not impossible - and the reversed mounts must have been done deliberately also. If whoever did the job had just taken it apart and scattered the pieces there seems little chance they would ever have been reunited. Presumably it was issued to the Royal Marines of the original garrison and either surrendered or dumped somewhere and later found by some Argentinian? Snipers don't generally advertise their affiliation after all.
The L1A1 markings are visible. Looks like the last two digits of the SN might be "52"
Is that a serial number on the right hand kukri?
The truth seems a little funny to me, since even after 38 years, some are affected by the Falklands conflict trying to minimize a reality, something as small as the appearance of a scope of l42 in search of excuses and doubts I don't see any shame that we have a scope, in fact we both lost much more valuable things in the conflict. Argentines assumed that the operation was crazy, since only the occupation of April 2 was planned and there was no preparation for a war with Great Britain, but the participation of the UN was wanted, clearly somewhat naive. But it seems that the English do not accept that a third world country, without a battle plan without planning and destined for failure since there was no air superiority or naval access) has caused them so much damage (they can check the list of sunken and touched ships they would have ended up underwater if the old-fashioned bombs had worked) the reality is that, just like us, due to the inoperative junta couldn't win because we dont have plan or resoruses, looking at their losses in the war with a 3 world country England would not have had the slightest chance against the Warsaw pact if a war starts at this time in europe. It would be nice if we put aside the emotional factors to stop questioning the facts and focus on studying the l42 scope held by the veteran and knowing his history ...
I hope soon to have an answer from who was there (which is worth more than any conjecture of people who were not)
Fastback,
Lets not get into Politics over this scope issue its not worth it, the war is over and we are back to where we were.
If the guy has British issued Militaria from the war, good luck to him.
I would have done the same, afterall, I'm not the QM of that unit, but losses did occur in all spheres of kit ;)
Fastback very interesting bit of history and a rare find, it would be very helpful if it’s possible of course, to get a photograph of the front of the bracket (the flat side); which hopefully will have a rifle serial number. If you could obtain a clearer, picture of the scope and it’s serial number, that would be fantastic!
There are many here that might be able to find out about its history, which would add to the story. It would be fascinating if we could detect which Regiment it originally came from?
It was standard procedure to try to destroy the rifle and telescope, if captured or about to be over run. It looks as though it’s possible that this was attempted with the deflection drum being removed, and the bracket being the wrong way round. The damage to the Ocular lens is signs that it was (used as a hammer) before being ditched.
Gil
Is there any mention of the L42A1’s on the MOD ledger, which are now at the bottom of the Atlantic? Having been hit by Argi aircraft attacks.
As you know a few of us on here have the lists as they arrived at Donnington and a few comments written down besides but thats it. ;)
Second that, it would be fascinating to find more information regarding the scope.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL96a1
On a wider point regarding the war, had the British government not let it be known publicly that the regular Royal Navy SSN patrol in the South Atlantic was being curtailed, then the invasion would probably have never happened and a lot of young lives on both sides wouldn't have been lost.
Perhaps you're getting an incorrect impression of the responses here?Quote:
Originally Posted by fastback
It is clearly an L1A1 and was clearly deliberately damaged before being either surrendered or dumped somewhere, which presumably means it must have been part of the equipment of the original garrisons, either on the Falklands or South Georgia.
If you find more information that will no doubt be welcomed by those who have a particular interest in that war.
I'm still trying to figure out what they did to the anti-rotation peg (4BA grub screw, essentially) to get the scope into the bracket backwards! Probably cut it off......
Good point! Set the scope in the bracket and strike on a hard surface until the pin shears off?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
I think it is sitting underneath the bottom ring. The rear ring is a different profile so maybe it's possible that way round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
You can just make it our I think.
GillQuote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Save me a copy of your book when it is published.
Nige
You've got better eyesight than me Roy!
I think its highly unlikely that the scope was removed from its bracket and replaced back to front in an attempt to render it useless
If the story is true, surely its far more likely that the user removed it from its bracket, discarding it and its caps away from the scope, followed by bashing the scope against a surface to try and render it useless
This seems to follow standard destruction drill
Does it not seem reasonable that who ever recovered the component parts (not knowing any better) resembled them incorrectly?
At the risk of going too far into details, there is only about 1/8" clearance between the top face of the locating peg and the bottom of the scope tube. Impossible to get any bracket cradle in that space, therefore the pin was either sheared off or removed. The soldier who swapped the caps around could have unscrewed it since he clearly had the wherewithal to undo the eight cap screws. There is a hole drilled through the bronze boss and the screw itself, with a piece of wire inserted to keep the screw from coming loose, but I've undone a few and the wire just sheared off if enough force was used. The wire was too thin to push out with a punch so there was no choice in those cases. Pin was removed to polish the tubes.
Why put the caps back on? Force of habit? Initial thought was to render unusable, but not to destroy against possible ultimate recovery? How many think entirely rationally at such times after a good firefight and the trauma of impending surrender? The "thumb screws" and spring washers were apparently discarded where they could not be found, so that at least prevented reuse.
Of course all this damage could have occurred in the following 38 years
Possible, but who would and why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy W