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Hi guys,
I recently purchased a collection of lee enfield rifles and one of them was a skeletonised no5.
I have never seen one before so i was interested. I have looked in the Skennerton book and there is no reference to them.
Were these factory prepared or has it been done by an unknown gunsmith?
Hi Pedro,
Any chance of some photos, then we can perhaps help in identifying whether it was a REME workshop/Apprentices, a proper job or just Bubba in his workshop
Gil
Would be nice to see...I've never seen one either.
I've seen about a zillion No4's, 5's as well as skeletonized No4's. But NEVER a skeletonised No5. There would be absolutely no point whatsoever. It's not beyond reason for one to be skeletonised as a trade test piece in the Far East Training Centre. But we had No4's - so why do a No5?
As a matter of idle curiosity where do skeletonised rifles sit with these somewhat ridiculous new Deac regs?
Simon,
As an ex Cop I can only give you my take on that question.
Many deactivated weapons have no numbers visible on the actions or barrels, all of them have no deactivation certificate allocated to them.
This is effectively the definition, so basically a piece of wall art, but I am sure it could be stretched to make anything a firearm:
A deactivated weapon is a real firearm which has been altered in such a way that it is no longer capable of discharging any bullet, missile or other projectile. UK deactivated weapons will have been submitted to one of two Proof Houses (Birmingham and London) in order to check that they have been correctly deactivated to EU/UK specifications.
Thanks Gil,
I was musing more about the changes whereby an "old spec" deac is now supposed to be resubmitted following further welding etc before it can sold on? Would this change now capture sectioned rifles I wonder?
I stay well away from deacs so I'm not clued up on the spec.
That's an interesting point Simon.... The answer very much depends on the Police Force you are under. Some sensibly have no issues with cutaway instructional firearms, others don't recognise them as legitimate .
With the new deac laws, they would probably all be thrown into the defectively deactivated category.
I had occasion to have to 'bring up to current spec' (UK/EU) several deactivated SMLE's & No4's a few months ago. I enquired at Birmingham Proof House as to what additional work would be required to make these rifles compliant with the new regulations. (They were deactivated a couple of years ago, so were compliant until the latest changes). I was told that for bolt action rifles with an intergral (non-detachable) magazine, no additional work would be required, but that rifles with detachable magazines such as the vast majority of Lee Enfields, would require a hardened steel pin to be welded transversely in place across the magazine well so as to prevent a magazine being inserted. I duly did this & obtained the new certs. In fact, a mag can be inserted if you notch out the very top of the mag casing on either side so that it will then clear the pin.
Just my experience of the recent changes FWIW. Skeletonised actions might fall foul of the 'pin' issue.
Roger,
I agree in principal with that, and wholly appreciate, it is the law and what has to be achieved under the recent "adendum" to it, but all the skeletons I have ever seen, have half the action sliced in two (I know we haven't seen any photos yet of what Pedro243) so one has to assume they would be accepted by virtue of their total inability to ever be made back into a "whole" weapon IMHO anyway. In short a Skeleton is better than the requirements of the DEAC laws :ugh:
It might already surpass the laws Gil, I don't know as I can't remember just how 'skeletonised' a skeleton action is. AFAIK they don't entirely remove the whole of one side. If there's a magazine well still present I suspect it'll need to be pinned.
yeah that was my thoughts aswell Peter. I didnt see the point if there were No4's out there.
sorry i do not currently have any pictures but hopefully i can go to the gun shop soon and take some
But case law has already deemed skeletonised no4's to the EMER spec are not firearms by definition so are already exempt the deact rules. No? And the deact rules already contain a clause that '.....there are other methods of deactivation.. This clause was inserted at the request of the Customs and Excise because other EU nations had official deacts but were done to different specs. And to prevent them being traded freely across the EU would be a blatant restriction of free trade.
You're no doubt right Peter, but I wonder if it would be that straight forward in practice?
Being i) poor, & ii) a coward, I just tend to ask Birmingham Proof House (they're only twenty minutes away from me & know me well) what I should do; I do it, & go along, pay, & collect my stamped up & certed wall hangers. In fact, like Simon, I have little to do with deacts, but every now & then someone will ask me for one; plus it is a good way of being able to sell a nice looking but shaXXed out rifle! Barrel wear & excessive headspace don't matter a jot when the barrel has been filleted, the feed ramp slotted, steel pins welded in place, & so on......
And I think the EU mandarins are still trying to thrash out what deviations from the norm between member countries will be acceptable. We'll probably be long gone before they've decided.
To be honest guys, I think a general line in the sand was drawn on 1 April 2015, when the new EU spec was ushered in.
Everything prior to this is regarded as defectively deactivated, most Police forces would probably just lump these actions in that category ... Makes life easier.
I consulted with my local constabulary when I bought my two cutaways a few years back, the advice was clear cut, buy from an RFD and just ensure no pressure baring licensed components are intact before you buy.
Provided good common sense is applied and due diligence is carried out, they are totally deactivated and completely incapable of discharging anything...
It's the 'common sense' bit that worries me!
True Roger, I should have added
"your experience may vary"
Something can be deactivated and not have a PH certificate and therefore not subject to PH criteria. But it can be incapable '........ of discharging a shot bullet or other like missile.... including......... blah blah blah AS DEFINED IN LAW.
Again, very true Peter.
I am fortunate in having a very good local constabulary Firearms team you can run ideas past and get common sense advice.
One of the main points raised by the now retired head of the team was to buy it through a reputable RFD who checks and ensures that the piece has no pressure baring parts left reusable on a live Firearm ... In my case the RFD also sent the SKN No4 with a letter detailing its instructional "non Firearm" status.
Just good old fashioned common sense.
Old school like Peter I'm afraid, if it can't ever be brought back on line as a firearm EVER, it misses the DEAC laws completely, and is what it is intended for...........a training aid.
Did'nt dare mention, you can't even be given a DEAC anymore let alone buy one, or have I read that wrong too??
That's right Gil, if its pre April 2016, you can't gift,sell or loan it unless it's brought up to the current EU standard and resubmitted to the Proofhouse.
As I understand it the offence is incorporated into the Crime Bill, & is applicable to selling/gifting a firearm within any EU country. There has already been speculation amongst some deact collectors as to whether pre April '16 deacts (if otherwise compliant) will revert to being street legal so long as they are only offered for sale on the home market, once we are out of the EU.
Pedro your thread has been hijacked by the POMS cheeky buggars. :surrender: I would like to know where you got it etc because I was handling one very recently that was for sale then not. Private email if you want to.
It was a very well done Skelly with no marks to indicate by who or where. It looked like other Aussie Skellys. The Kiwis marked theirs.
You're quite right Bindi2. My apologies!
Yep, sorry for our diversion ... To be fair its somewhat of a tradition here, we start taking about Lee's, then divert to classic cars before discussing the moon landings or some other totally random chitter chat.
Pedro,
Its only while we wait for the photos...........anyway, my Mini Cooper S was a brama, lovely little car, trims round the windows and 1275cc engine..................brilliant:lol:
Talking of which, I have two. Mini Cooper S's that is.
I bet bindy wishes he didn't say anything now:lol:
..........................and another thing, it was the best little car in so many ways, nearly as good as No 5 Lee Enfield Jungley Carbines as an invention:lol:
What still no photos??
Not at all. As PL knows I never let you blokes get away. But you did wander a long way but stayed sort of online. The one I had in my hands in January was not a bubba or back yard job.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Don't forget the time difference and he maybe a FIFO on shift.
I had a look through Skennertons latest one on the Lee Enfield I have all his books on the Lee Enfield (from 1st to last including a No.30 signed Presentation copy which makes 4 books) there is nothing on any No5's being approved for Skeletonisation in those books.
Marks/Dates for approvals were ~ No.4 Mk I & Mk I*, 11.12.50 & No4 Mk 1/2, 1/3 & 2, 03/02/1955 there was nothing in Strattons book either.
Though there may have been different workshops for reasons unknown may have done them but as PL would say it probably was not in the EMER's say during the war but as we have learnt here never say never with enfields.....
Could skeletonising a No5 have been a trade test perhaps?
Sorry, I guess the tangent was my fault?
If you need me I'll be over there in the naughty corner facing the wall.:D
:dancingbanana:I should jolly well think so!
Bindi2,
The No5 you have seen, I take it has all the REME tell tell signs of red edging and a fluted barrel?
Something in the back of my mind suggests AJ Parker produced skeletonised No.4's and Bren Guns for CCF units on a commercial basis in the early 1960's.
Could this be the source?
That's a point Mick. When Dave T & I were invited to the place when it was winding up (Edna by this time deceased & her niece & great nephew in charge) there were dozens & dozens of them in the basement, although all I saw were built on No4's or SMLE's. If I'd known this question was going to crop up in ten years' time I'd have paid more attention to them.
The skeletonisation programme was from the early to mid 50's and was done under contract by LIST engineering at Dagenham, No others involved. Bert List told me that the rifles and Brens were all done piecework and were FTR failures. Apprentices and those doing other projects also did them and other things, such as Vickers, BESA's revolvers and No2 Brownings but on a small scale. But a No5, nope!
I have a fully skeletonized No4 Mk1 that was done by the REME Armourers. The accompanying plaque reads "Presented to RSM (WO 1) J Pettifar, Royal Fusiliers by the REME Armourers, with thanks. Perhaps your No5 was done for a similar reason.
Interesting point re the official List SKN cutaways Peter, my Savage 1942 SKN No4 has (FTR/ F *) no date, I guess it failed final inspection, though it was fitted with a new 1949 dated Faz barrel.
Thats a bit bizarre Clarky that you have a SKN action with a new barrel I should surmise the '49 barrel though not original to the '42 action may have been toast as well.
Yes it looked ok to me. Very much like other Aussie Skellys. Certainly not a Brit one. I have a Kiwi done 35 Lithy which is similar to the Aussie ones but not quite the same. One difference is the Kiwis add a new serial ( NZ 001 as example) as the old one is totalily removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
It is odd Ron, you would think if a No4 had gone through final assembly post FTR, then failed inspection, they would remove the barrel again... Guess my rifle was just shipped off to List for sectioning instead.
---------- Post added at 02:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 AM ----------
The New Zealanders loved their census numbers didn't they. Used them right up to 1960.
Bindi,
It seems to me mate, you have the one in a million there, which I think was produced by A.N Other. Why would you do it?
So in short buy it and enjoy it in that knowledge ;)
The one I handled got pulled off the market. When Pedro posted my eyes dinged up it is either another one or the same one. The one I handled was an Aussie done job and I wouldn't think very many got done.
So its not the same one then? There are possibly two out there in Australia??
Potently yesQuote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Alice Cooper the band came to North Bay for a concert a few years ago to the Memorial Gardens (a hockey rink). Not sure if Alice is still hitting the big times, tickets were $15, any seat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Anyhoo, my buddy had a Mini Cooper parked in the Gardens parking lot. He got the lead singer Vincent (Alice) to autograph his car trunk with permanent marker. White mini with 'Alice' signed above the 'Cooper' detail. He has had it clear coated but sadly it is fading in the sun..
Now what were we talking about> Moon landings?........
Tag me in ... MOON LANDING YOU SAY ... Never happened, all filmed in some blokes shed.
We had a skeletonized No.5 at RAEME trade training center, along with most other small arms cut down by the apprentices.
There we have it....................anyway, I wonder if those astronauts ever knew they were drugged when they believe they landed on the moon.
Always made me smile, they could talk and send images back to Cape Canaveral live, and I could'nt get a microwave video signal in line of site 200 yards on earth :lol:
Speaking of Astronauts and Aliens, I was shown a pic of about 10 SMLE's that were the first of 70 to cop the dropsaw, it seems the mindset of our upper Military Echelon has been altered by Aliens to order the destruction of all old firearms held as presentation stock, my eyes are a bit wet and swollen from all the weeping.
It makes me grind my teeth Muffet, utter idiots have no respect or interest in a piece of Australian history....Quote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangely Brown
I recall there were photos of the skeletonised Enfields from the Ma Parker works floating round t'interweb several years ago, if I recall correctly taken by someone on one of the urban exploration forums, 28 Days Later was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
Edit:
Here y'go:
Report - - Alfred Parker Ltd Gunsmiths, Birmingham - June 2010 | 28DaysLater.co.uk
And some more here:
Report - - Alfred J Parker Armoury Works - Birmingham - 2011 | 28DaysLater.co.uk
Apologies if they have been posted before.
I finally have it all licensed so here are some quick pictures
Not much rifling to be seen in that tube Pedro......
Licensed Pedro? You need a licence for it!:eek:
Looking very cool indeed, I would love one to go alongside my sectioned rifles.
Yeah there is a bit of rifling, it is just very black. I'll see how I go cleaning it one day.
Yeah, in fun loving Australia, even skeletonised actions may require licensing. I need to check if it actually needs licensing, but the person I bought it off had it licensed, so I needed to get it licensed.
Well Pedro, licensed madness or not, its a superb addition to an Enfield collection.
I missed out on a sectioned L85A1 a while back, I would love to have a cutaway example of every main British service rifle type from the P53 to the SA80 on my gun room wall.
P53, Snider and Martini aren't an issue as there are still a good number of really rough worn out examples to restore and section, SMLE full length cutaways are very rare here though.
I like a difficult project!
Yeah it does fit in well with my slowly growing Lee Enfield collection.
I was after a jungle carbine and ended up with 3 of them in my last acquisitions. Sadly the BSA one has been converted to 303/25, but either way, its in my safe
I have to say that in all my time a lot of it in the ancestral home of the No5, I NEVER saw a No5 skeletonised. And if an army apprentice or someone on a trade test course machined something to that standard.......................
Yeah i am beginning to think it was either a gun smith, or maybe in India. The carbine has been through India.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The thing that I wonder about is the opening up of the flash hider, doesn't do anything for the instructional value...only thing not painted too.Quote:
Originally Posted by pedro243
It seems only the wood work is painted. All the metal has been left as is off the cutterQuote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle