Saginaw M1 Carbine find

I ran across a Saginaw M1 Carbine yesterday at a local gunshop. The owner is offering it for sale for 2050. I am interested. I was not in a position to ask to disassemble the rifle. The stock has the crossed cannons and an SG , both on the right side. The stock is a highwood and has grime from the oiler slot along the stock to just behind the trigger area. ( This appears to be from carrying it as I have seen many photos of soldiers carry their carbines under the right arm with finger ready for firing. The owner says the gun was purchased by him as a bring back but with no authentication.) There are dings on the stock but not terrible. There is a gouge about an inch long on the pistol grip bottom. There is a sling that has the C tabs. The sling looks unused with no discoloration. It is a mustard color and thicker than the OD green slings I have seen in the past. The flip sight has SG on the side. The barrel has Saginaw and General Motors but no date. I did not have an opportunity to make a note of the serial number although the owner says it was manufactured in May of 1943. Saginaw is above the serial number. The metal is good. The flat bolt has a rough finish appearing to have some sort of thin discoloration on the top like it sat up without being cleaned for a long time. The push button safety and magazine release are not marked, if I remember correctly. These are the only things I noticed. I have only read about carbines and own an arsenal rebuilt Inland with a Standard Products potbelly stock so I don't really have experience with the original carbines. Please advise me as to what to look for when I go back tomorrow to try to further examine the gun. I also would appreciate some guidance concerning the selling price. Thank you for your consideration.

The best thing you can do is to take photos of this carbine including the serial number. If it was made in May 1943 it is one of the first 1521 made. So right now it's buyer beware. The photos should be close ups of the rear sight on both sides, the barrel band both sides, the stock if it's as early as stated then it should be an I cut oiler in the stock as well as a high wood. But before anyone here can comment on this carbine we do need to see it. Far to many fake parts are out there and again I say "Buyer beware".

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

The best thing you can do is to take photos of this carbine including the serial number. If it was made in May 1943 it is one of the first 1521 made. So right now it's buyer beware. The photos should be close ups of the rear sight on both sides, the barrel band both sides, the stock if it's as early as stated then it should be an I cut oiler in the stock as well as a high wood. But before anyone here can comment on this carbine we do need to see it. Far to many fake parts are out there and again I say "Buyer beware".

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Thank you for the reply . Great advice. I will go by the shop tomorrow and try to get some pics .

He should have no issues with you taking pictures and even breaking it down to check the internal parts. If he hesitates, maybe I would shy away.

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Originally Posted by bentonville

The stock has the crossed cannons and an SG , both on the right side. The stock is a highwood

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Stock:
Do you recall if the Oiler slot is Oval shaped like on your potbelly stock?
When looking at the Boxed SG stamp..... Would the top of the SG letters be toward the muzzle with the rifle muzzle upright?
Or were the SG letters upright with the rifle laying sideways?
Look in the stocks left side slingwell for markings, common ones for SG or S'G' is RSG.
Look for rebuild stamps on the stocks left side like: RIA over EB, AAM, .U. , STAN PRO INC, MR, etc.
Look for a Circled P proof on the bottom of the pistol grip.
Look in front of the grip for other P stamps = Proof/field/repair/ inspection stamps.

Barrel Band:
Do you recall what the Barrel Band looked like ? Was it narrow or like a Bayonet Band ?
Look the current Barrel Band over for markings.
Look for wear spots on the barrel forward of the Barrel Band (if it currently has a narrow band on it) for rub marks left from where a Bayonet Bands 3 inner pads will rub.
Also look this area over for a Dis-coloration on the Barrel finish from once having a Bayo band on it.

Front Sight:
SG frt sights have a rounded groove running from the rear to the back of the sight blade.
On S'G' frt sights Look for markings on both the top and outer sides.
Look at the Frt sight pin to see if it's been pushed off and on.... like a mashed Frt sight pin and scars on the very front of the barrel.

Rear Sight:
Look the rear sight over for the marking on the sides of its base and look for markings on the leaf blades.
Look for any moon crater type punch/stake marks on top of the Receivers Dovetails that the sight's base fits between. Big Crater punch marks tell you it had a rear adjustable sight on it at one time. Look closely, some fill these and finish over them.

For this kind of money you gotta get him to pull the barreled receiver out of the stock. It's like popping the hood on a used car buy.
Look at the sides of the receiver and barrel closely for Light Import Stamps.
Look over the Gas Cylinder for any cracks.
Does the Piston move freely?

If need be, give him a Refundable Deposit 24hrs. Take all the pictures you can, be sure to get pictures of the sides of the trigger housing, bolt, op slide, Chamber etc. get them posted here and we'll do our part, with-in the time frame.
Print this off for a carry in cheat sheet if it will help jog your memory.

Camera
Flashlight... Bore light
Screwdriver
Clean rag
Magnifying loop or glasses.
Note pad
$ Deposit money

Hell, I'm excited for you, wish I could go. You anywhere near mid Michigan?

Be Waiting,
Charlie-Painter777

Thank you for the replies. I did get to disassemble the rifle to a degree. the owner is very nice and accommodating. I wasn't comfortable taking apart the trigger group but I did the best that I knew how to do. I used my Iphone and I don't know if the pictures offer clear enough details but it's all I have. Now I have to learn how to put pictures on this forum. I will read some instructions and try to get this done. Thanks again for the help.

Well.....Frustration sets in....as usual with this sort of thing. I have spent too long trying to get photos to drag and upload into Photobucket. I created the account, etc. Tried to drag from my Icloud photo album and nothing happens. I have read everything I could find to read while weeding through all the adds. I would be very happy to send photos by email to anyone interested. If you have a way to help me upload, I would be happy to but right now, i feel it's time to toss this computer out the second story window.
Thanks for your attempt to help me.

You can just load the photos directly to this site without much problem. It's not much harder than posting as you've already done. Click on the "Go Advanced" tab when making your reply. From there you go to manage attachments, choose the photos from your computer, and upload them. Preview your post, and when it looks good, submit it. Or, there's a "write-up" in the sticky threads that tells all about how to do it. :thup: - Bob

So do I just go here on Reply and down to manage attachments. When I do that, go to my photos on my computer and click and drag, I get a large image and nothing on the bottom of the manage attachments page. If there is something I am missing please advise. Thank you for your patience.

After you click on "manage attachments," look in the upper RH corner of the new window for a tab that says "add files" - then click on "select files" - this will allow you to browse your computer for files to upload. When you get your files selected, they will appear in a list, where you then can click "upload" to see them in your reply. Click "preview" to see how they will appear along with your text. When it looks good, then click on "submit." - Bob

I don't know if my crummy pics will help but it's the best I could do standing at his counter holding the gun in one hand and clicking the picture with the other. Note the quality of the finish on the bolt top and the front barrel band. something didn't seem right with the band but it could just be a type two . I don't know enough. I did notice that when I got the band off the front hand guard ( it seems stuck) there was a film that looked like old glue or some type of sealant that held the band tight. Once I replaced the band, the front guard was a little loose. I have seen this before so I don't know if it is a problem or not.
Thank you for looking.

Hey, you figured out the pictures! That carbine definitely has some pluses. Did you get a chance to see if the front sight has the groove Charlie mentioned? I think I can see a faint "R" at least in the sling well. The front band is definitely questionable. It looks like it could be a commercial - almost looks like the finish is black paint. The receiver, rear sight, and Trigger housing along with the safety and mag catch look good to me. Type 3 hammer and the 22 coil spring are probably OK, too. The stock markings look original to me, and correct for an SG. Let's see what the others have to say about it. If I saw that one at a gun show, I'd most likely try to buy it. :thup:

Thank you for helping with the pictures. It took me a while.
What did you think of the pitting or corrosion on the bolt top?
Possible barrel band replaced....2050?

Oops! Forgot about the 2050. I don't think it's worth anywhere near that much. I did see the "pitting" - it shouldn't be there. Barrel band should be a Type 1, I think and the stock a "Hi-Wood" without a Type 2 imprint from that band. We need to hear comments from some of the others. - Bob

Is $2050 the asking price?

EDIT: Sorry I see in the 1st post now that it is $2050, along with being a Hi-wood stock.

Be back shortly.

Charlie-Painter777

IT's the bottom line price. He was asking 2250. He seems to know his stuff. He has several carbines including another Saginaw. He bought this in a package deal with an M1, a Luger, and a P38. I love the Carbine but I don't really like the bolt finish or the barrel band, although it may be fine.

Do you recall if the front sight had a Groove on it like this?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...60115468-1.jpg

Couple more questions first to try to jog your memory....

Did you notice any other letter stamps on the stock..... usually left side?
Were you able to see or told if the bolt and Op slide were marked SG?
Any small letters on the edge of the Buttplate?
How did the inside of the barrel look ?
Did he gage it for you ?
Did the chamber look clean/smooth ?
Any thing else go with it.... mags, ammo, soft case ?

Standing by,
Charlie-Painter777

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Originally Posted by painter777

Do you recall if the front sight had a Groove on it like this?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...60115468-1.jpg

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Honestly I can’t remember. I didn’t know to look for it .

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Originally Posted by painter777

Couple more questions first to try to jog your memory....

Did you notice any other letter stamps on the stock..... usually left side?
Were you able to see or told if the bolt and Op slide were marked SG?

Any small letters on the edge of the Buttplate?
How did the inside of the barrel look ?
Did he gage it for you ?
Did the chamber look clean/smooth ?
Any thing else go with it.... mags, ammo, soft case ?

Standing by,
Charlie-Painter777

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Bore was dark but lands sharp and high. Didn’t notice side edge of butt plate . Hammer has the N. I didn’t take the bolt out , should how I know now. SG mag comes with it. Nothing on left side of stock that I can see.
Sling comes with it . No Oiler . Has a thin metal rod holding the sling . Front sight looks like the pic . Has groove .

SG # 3,335,720
Correct: Used below to Indicate Real and Period Correct for Make and Serial Number Range
NIA: No Information Available, Pictured or Stated.

Stock: Correct Type II Oval Shaped Oiler Slot, With Hi-Wood Right Rail. Correct Boxed SG Cartouche and Crossed Cannons Stamp.
Slingwell: Correct Remnant of the RSG Stamp in the top of the slingwell.
R followed by a very light S, with the G not visible in the picture.
No Visible Armory, Depot Rebuild stamps or Inspection P stamps.
RecoilPlate: Correct Type III Marked SG on Top.
ButtPlate: Correct Pattern Pictured, Looks to be Made by Pross MFG. Co. Supplier for SG-S'G', It's a Possible PM-IP
Sling: Non WWII USGI
HandGuard: NIA
Rear Sight: Correct Square Block Style S Marked Flip Sight
Trigger Housing: Correct Type III Milled Marked SG
Push Safety: Correct, Could be Type II or Type III
Mag Catch: Correct Style Type IIA Smooth Faced. Correct Depends on Markings Found on Front Teeth... AKA: (SG, W-SG, E-SG, TSG, ISG)
Hammer: Correct Type III Marked Z
Barrel: Correct Saginaw SG DIV
Front Sight: Correct If Grooved. See Note Below
Current Barrel Band: NON USGI. Either a Commercial Type II or Commercial Bayonet Band Cut Down to a Type II Configuration.
CORRECT BARREL BAND: Would Be a Type IA
Bolt: Type II Flat Would be Marked SG . Currently NIA on Marking
Bolt Internals: Firing Pin, Extractor Currently NIA on Markings.
OP Slide: NIA On Current Type/Markings. Correct Would Be a Type III Marked SG.
Trigger Housing Internals: Hammer ID is Above, Other Internals Are NIA.

Please Note: I pulled a random picture from a auction to show you the look of the groove on a Saginaw SG Front Sight. Though it gives a good comparison, there is a possibility the sight in the picture could be a Reproduction.

Also: I have not given an opinion as to if the current finishes on your metal is original or if it has at one time been refinished. Other opinions on 'All of the Above' can vary. Others can chime in on the current asking price. These are just IMHO and hope it helps.

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

PS: That Front Sight had to be removed when someone installed the current Commercial Barrel Band. A possibility might be the Original USGI Type IA Barrel Band was broken. They may have then re-installed the Original Front Sight. Look for metal finish pulled off the sight pin and maybe some marks from a punch.

Unbelievable information! I appreciate everybody’s input so very much. I just received an amazing education . Evaluating a Carbine is like being a detective . I had no Idea what all was involved.

Photobucket is the worse. Use a sight like IMGUR, upload pictures then post the album of them here. Imgur: The magic of the Internet

I use .jpg's drop them on the desktop & load from there piece of cake really, I only use copies though in case the dreaded black hole happens and is swallowed for ever lost in cyber space.......

I did not receive much advice concerning price. However, the detailed analysis in this thread, and especially that of painter777, has helped me decide not to spend $2050 for this carbine. If the bolt top was not pitted and the barrel band was correct, I think I would have gotten this gun. I don't have a WW2 carbine and it has been a desire of mine for years to own one. I do have an example of an gun reconstituted by Standard Products in 1949. I really wanted this Saginaw but for that much money, I believe the finishes and barrel band should be very nice if not excellent. If any believe this gun is worth that kind of money, please advise. I plan to call the owner tomorrow afternoon. Thank you all for your consideration.

I agree with your assessment. I bought my carbine, a postwar rebuild but not import stamped, about 3 years ago for $750 on Gunbroker. Deals can be had if you look!
Gunbroker has a pretty great saved search feature that I use for my "want list" guns.

Good call. An M1 carbine should be perfect and not questionable in any way for $2000.
Also unless the white balance is way off that sling is a cheap garbage foreign reproduction sling.

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Originally Posted by AD-4NA

sling is a cheap garbage foreign reproduction sling.

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So lets add what we know is needed to a ballpark figure,
Real USGI C tip sling...... $75+
A IS Oiler................. $15.00
Type IA Barrel Band and Swivel..... $175 (on a good day)
So here's $265~ that would have to be spent.

Then these in to account, which may need replacing:
Not sure of the marking on the Hand Guard?
Same with marking on the Bolt?
What are the Bolt internals ?
Same with markings on the Op Slide?
Though it's the correct style...... We don't know the markings on the Mag Catch front tooth?

You'd also need the tools to R and R the front sight to install another barrel band.

Your gut was right IMO, carbine is about $425-$500 to high at $2050.
As mentioned watch GB and try listing a WTB here for your wants. Remember there are VERY FEW original carbines out there.

JMO,
Charlie-Painter777

Obviously the Carbine doesn't HAVE to have these correct parts to work. But for $2050 in current condition, I'd pass also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

So lets add what we know is needed to a ballpark figure,
Real USGI C tip sling...... $75+
A IS Oiler................. $15.00
Type IA Barrel Band and Swivel..... $175 (on a good day)
So here's $265~ that would have to be spent.

Then these in to account, which may need replacing:
Not sure of the marking on the Hand Guard?
Same with marking on the Bolt?
What are the Bolt internals ?
Same with markings on the Op Slide?
Though it's the correct style...... We don't know the markings on the Mag Catch front tooth?

You'd also need the tools to R and R the front sight to install another barrel band.

Your gut was right IMO, carbine is about $425-$500 to high at $2050.
As mentioned watch GB and try listing a WTB here for your wants. Remember there are VERY FEW original carbines out there.

JMO,
Charlie-Painter777

Obviously the Carbine doesn't HAVE to have these correct parts to work. But for $2050 in current condition, I'd pass also.

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I’ll call the guy tomorrow and pass. I really appreciate the guidance .

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Originally Posted by bentonville

I really appreciate the guidance

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Paying back,
Sure don't know it all, but was lucky enough to have had help from some of the best collectors in the world IMO.
You'll find most all Carbine people are good people.
Those that aren't and try to take advantage of newer collectors..... burn their name. This is a small world.
Best to you and remember: There is no stupid question........ well most aren't :-)

Cheers
Charlie-Painter777

The other half of the question Charlie was "There's only a stupid answer" as if we all had a $1 from some Numbie (Numb-ee) that is always in a group that your training we would be very rich persons indeed, I always en-devoured with this type to provide an honest answer even in the face of adversity, though when test time came those chaps found out I was a little tougher in my expectations of their answers in the exam paper.
I have never been able to fathom why in every class there is a numbie hell bent on preening themselves as a know all when all they are doing is a distraction......yeah I marked'em tough even failed a couple so they had to re-sit the test again yep pay back sucker as Mr T would say.

We were all new once.