Pattern room drawing request procedure

If anyone here has done it, what was your experience with requesting data from the Enfield pattern room? Do you need to be an actual researcher/working on a publication or will they take requests from "normal people" too?

Specifically, I'm looking for info on the barrel profile of the No. 5 Jungle Carbine for a .223 re-barreling project I am working on. I'm also interested in getting dimensioned drawings for the No. 4, 5, and other items like the ones they've released for the No. 1 Mk3 here:
https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ative-145.html
(Click on “Media” tab at bottom of big main picture to see same photos and more).

Leeds Royal Armouries have always been very helpful in the past when I have requested information.

They were enormously helpful when I was researching my unusual early production MP5.

E-mail 'em and ask. Worse they can say is no. Contact us - Royal Armouries collections
Mind you, you might be about to start a riot by fiddling with a No. 5 rifle like that. Plus you'll be dropping its value to nothing. Different thing if it's one of those fakes by assorted professional Bubbifiers.
You'll have to convert the bolt head to rimless(.223 rim diameter is .378" vs the 540" of the .303), modify the mag follower and lips and put in a feed ramp spacer to compensate for the
2.260" OAL for the .223 vs the 3.075" of the .303.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sunray

E-mail 'em and ask. Worse they can say is no. Contact us - Royal Armouries collections
Mind you, you might be about to start a riot by fiddling with a No. 5 rifle like that. Plus you'll be dropping its value to nothing. Different thing if it's one of those fakes by assorted professional Bubbifiers.
You'll have to convert the bolt head to rimless(.223 rim diameter is .378" vs the 540" of the .303), modify the mag follower and lips and put in a feed ramp spacer to compensate for the
2.260" OAL for the .223 vs the 3.075" of the .303.

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Don't worry, I'm starting from a barrel-less reciever. I have nearly all parts except for the barrel, even the special Craig Whitsey bolt head.

Hi. Biggest issue you're going to have is finding a smithy who can do 55 degree, 1"x14, Whitworth threading. AKA Enfield threads. Isn't the same as regular American threads. He'll need to have the proper barrel vise bushings and a correct action wrench too. If the guy has to buy any of that stuff, you'll be paying for it but will not be keeping it.
Somewhere I have the barrel shank drawing. Don't remember if it was online or in a book. I'm looking.
This is as close as it gets on-line. It's from Gunparts. 14 V tpi, .985 dia. shank, .687 shank length.

Far cheaper to ask any machinist to cut the thread for you, don't forget the 55 Degree cutting tool though, I always start with 1" easy to take of a few thou than put back on. If it was me doing a .223 then I'd make a locking nut like the Savage rifles, screw barrel in to correct CHS then lock nut up........ I've done it a few times on .45ACP Enfield builds.

In fact I'll be doing again in the future but for a different Enfield...... and a different thread.

Barrel vice and action wrench are easy to produce but as your starting with just the body then the hard work is done, if you go the Savage lock nut route then you can get away with heavy duty stuff, all depends on your metal work skills, best vice I made was lots of plates that were bored out to a Enfield No4 barrel shape at the Knox form, (think of slip friction) but even with that I needed a long cheater bar to remove No4 barrels......

There was a link somewhere to Surplus rifle, there was a very good article on a No4 converted to .223 someone may be able to find it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Far cheaper to ask any machinist to cut the thread for you, don't forget the 55 Degree cutting tool though, I always start with 1" easy to take of a few thou than put back on. If it was me doing a .223 then I'd make a locking nut like the Savage rifles, screw barrel in to correct CHS then lock nut up........ I've done it a few times on .45ACP Enfield builds.

In fact I'll be doing again in the future but for a different Enfield...... and a different thread.

Barrel vice and action wrench are easy to produce but as your starting with just the body then the hard work is done, if you go the Savage lock nut route then you can get away with heavy duty stuff, all depends on your metal work skills, best vice I made was lots of plates that were bored out to a Enfield No4 barrel shape at the Knox form, (think of slip friction) but even with that I needed a long cheater bar to remove No4 barrels......

There was a link somewhere to Surplus rifle, there was a very good article on a No4 converted to .223 someone may be able to find it.

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Your locknut idea is interesting. Would it be safe to make it a takedown rifle with that method? The thing is I'm trying to keep the external appearance as close as possible to the original jungle carbine, hand guard and all. I have a scanned copy of the .223 jungle carbine article from shotgun news which seems to have some info on the rebarreling procedure.

You could do, the hand guard would cover anything non standard, just had a look in my bookmarks and the link below will give you some idea on a No4 in .233

Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle - Surplusrifle.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sunray

Hi. Biggest issue you're going to have is finding a smithy who can do 55 degree, 1"x14, Whitworth threading. AKA Enfield threads. Isn't the same as regular American threads. He'll need to have the proper barrel vise bushings and a correct action wrench too. If the guy has to buy any of that stuff, you'll be paying for it but will not be keeping it.
Somewhere I have the barrel shank drawing. Don't remember if it was online or in a book. I'm looking.
This is as close as it gets on-line. It's from Gunparts. 14 V tpi, .985 dia. shank, .687 shank length.

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https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...urements-1.jpg
Here is a scanned copy of the barrel chamber-end thread drawing from the Shotgun news article. I put text over the original hand-written measurements to make them easier to read. The major (0.996 inches) and minor (0.900 inches) diameters seem to be measured off his original barrel. It looks like some of the other smaller measurements are meant to take into account the .223 bolt head.
For some reason there appears to be a 0.690" under the 0.702" measurement in my original scan. I can't find anything corresponding to that in the article so I guess that was from an earlier attempt at measuring.

Are the threads for the No 5 barrel different than the threads for the No 4? I was under the impression that they were the same.

"...threads for the No 5 barrel different..." Nope. There are some tolerances involved and it's a daft Brit thread nobody uses any more.
Been rummaging around the Surplus Rifles' Dropbox.com archive site without finding the articles bigduke6 linked to. Read that.
The only serious issue is the 55 degree, 1"x14, Whitworth threading stuff. Not many American smithies can do that.
Dropbox - SurplusRifle.com Files
"...Barrel vice and action wrench are easy to produce..." Yep(made both 'em myself, long ago.), but you don't want to be paying for a smithy to get new tools.

The Pattern Room emailed me back! They do have a dimensioned drawing on file and they said they would send it to be for a 5 GBP processing fee.

5 Pounds is $6.91USD, as of today. Hard to beat an actual drawing. You still need a smithy with the skills and tools/machines to do Whitworth threads though.
These guys in England are Whitworth tooling suppliers. Maybe they can give you the name of somebody Stateside.
Contact Us - Engineering Tool Supplier | Cutwel Ltd

Thanks for the link. I found one from MSC which appears to be a American supplier:

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnp...SABEgInLPD_BwE

Would it be appropriate for this project? Grainger has some too, but they will only sell in packs of 10.

Hi. That's just the cutter. And you need tooling that does the external threads on the barrel shank and a lathe that'll do it. Think in terms of a die, not a tap. Even though it's not a tap and die job. MSC might be able to direct you to a smithy though. And it's a smithy, not just a machine shop. All gun smiths are machinists, but not all machinists are gun smiths.

.223" No5 - again............ It's been mooted time and time again and again and....... since pontius was a pilot, believe me. I'll say in brief what I've said at length each time. It's simple to make a change of calibre rifle go bang. But it's the other parts of the cycle that are non starters ESPECIALLY when you have a case with a smaller base rim diameter. The parts of the cycle such as unlock (easy) extract (a bit more difficult) eject (a tad more difficult but achievable, cock (easy) feed, load (non starters I say) and lock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

It's simple to make a change of calibre rifle go bang.

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Yep, even I can do that. :madsmile:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../14a8uh4-1.jpg
222 Rem in a Sht.22 Mk.IV*. It is a single loader just like the 22 trainer that it was based upon.

All I did was to rechamber and change the bolt back to center fire.
The empty cases dont 'eject', but simply extract then drop off the bolt face as they clear the chamber mouth to be collected in the empty mag body .

The clever bit, as Mr.Laider suggests, would be to feed from a mag and then to eject.

I'm not that clever.

Why not cut a bad barrel up and use the chamber end as a bushing with the new barrel and bushing thread in any shape thread you want.