British Pattern 1914 rifle converted to .303/7.92mm RIMLESS caliber

I am aware of several Pattern 1914 rifles converted to a test cartridge, .303/7.92mm RIMLESS cartridge.

This rifle is additionally interesting in that it was previously owned by Canadian John A. Belton who wrote about the rifle in the very first issue of the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, February 1963. The title was, "Two Experimental Pattern-14 Enfield Rifles of Note." The second rifle was fitted with a muzzle break and converted to a high velocity wild cat round by experimenter C. C. Meredth of Ontario Canada.

Belton was a well known Canadian cartridge collector and cartridge collecting editor of the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting.

Attachment 91185Attachment 91186

This ends the study of US Enfields and all will be returned to extended storage. I did not include arms with National Chinese, Chinese and a rifle with MkII replacement British manufactured stock. Is there interest?

Definitely interest, I do appreciate you sharing these fantastic rifles!

I second eaglelords comments.

Your posts are definitely the best what has happened in this forum section for the last decade! Please share whatever you are willing to share!

This was the receiver marking of the rifle that Poulin sold last fall:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...03176484-1.jpg

Are you aware of how this cartridge looks like? A 8x57 cartridge body retracted (is this the correct term? Sorry, not a native speaker) to for a .303 British bullet?

Skennerton mentions these rifles were made for a trials in 1937.

Absolutely!! Yes!

Attachment 91220

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Originally Posted by Promo

Are you aware of how this cartridge looks like?

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Is this the monster?

Somewhere I read that the 8mm experimentation was done to develop a round for the coax tank machine gun. Some British tanks in WWII used 8mm (7.92 x 57) mauser cartridges. Or so I have read and been told.

Besa machine gun - Wikipedia

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Originally Posted by Melanie_Daniels

Besa machine gun

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Now there's a gun...I operated one a while back, they were made from a solid block milled out. Very, very solid gun.

Having bought the rifle from the estate of Faris and now having it finally in Hand I did not only notice that my rifle has a shortened barrel, but also that the stock had been set back a bit. Can you confirm your rifle is still in the original and full length?

My rifle is standard length overall and barrel length. It blends in with the others in the rack.

Thank you. This then means my rifle once had been shortened.

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Originally Posted by Promo

Thank you. This then means my rifle once had been shortened.

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It is possible that it might have been shortened by Soley Arms. They did alot of work trying to get the gov't to buy modified Pattern 1914s. I can't seen a private citizen shortening the barrel of a rifle that he can't get ammo for. Will your rifle take the bayonet? If it does--it comes back to Soley.

The front handguard and stock had been very professionally shortened and the front sight set back in exactly the same way as it looks original. Therefore a bayonet can also be fitted to the rifle.

Another good quirk about having the 8mm round is you could grab 8mm ammo from its previous German owners and put it to use in the BESA in the tank.....

The pattern room collection has a number of Soley modified weapons. It sure seems like you rifle is a Soley effort. Congratulations on a nice find.

"British Rifles" catalog of the British Pattern Room, HMSO 1981 by Herb Woodend, custodian (Ian Skennerton ghost writer). Catalogs four .303 rimless rifles. One in .303 rimless, two in .303/7.92mm with BSA marked barrel knoxforms. One in standard length and one with barrel and forestock shortened 3 inches. Another conversion by Solely and so marked is one in 8mm Mauser.

"British Small Arms Ammunition 1864 ti 1938" by Peter Labbett, 1993, Armoury Press has a paragraph and a few pictures. Research underway in 1935 to improved armor penetration, a series of rimless cartridges were developed and evaluated, All were rimless based on .303 cartridge case size with different case lengths and bullet diameters.

.303 bullet/56.5mm case length

.303 bullet/65mm case length,

.303/ 7.92mm with 56.5mm case length,

.303/.276 inch using 62mm case length,

.303/.25 inch with 62.2mm case length

WWII cancelled further investigations.

Sorry, had been (and still am) in a hurry so too little time to inspect and picture my rifles in detail. So with some delay another piece from the Faris collection.

Having compared it with a "normal" P.14 it appears that this rifle is approx. 7 to 7,5 cm (so a bit less than the suggested 3") shorter. The barrel had been milled in diameter so the rear sight could had been set back. I may need to correct also an earlier statement of myself - despite the rifle having the original bayonet lug and a barrel milled down to the required diameter, due to the shorter distance between those two the normal P.14 bayonet can't be used with this rifle.

The very interesting thing I noticed when I, already late yesterday evening, finally did decide to take off the handguards and check for markings there. To my surprise I didn't only find the caliber marking again on the barrel, but additionally BSA manufacturers markings! So it appears that the caliber rework was done by BSA.

Did you ever take off the rear handguard and check if yours also has BSA markings there?

My rifle also has a BSA barrel, with matching serial number and duplicate caliber markings. At some time in its life, the rifle stock split off the toe of the stock and was replaced with a new piece that resulted in loss of the pocket for the sling swivel base.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Attachment 91220

Is this the monster?

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Bears a considerable resemblance to 7.62x51mm overall though a slightly steeper taper on the main body.

Do we know if the rifles are still in the Enfield Pattern Room, or are our two rifles the ones originating from the Pattern Room?