Where have the good No5 rifle all gone?

Evening fellow Milsurpers,

I am just about to cast out the nets to haul in a good No5 and since I started looking here in the UK, I have noticed that they are now very few in number, some of the prices being asked for even tatty examples seem very steep :mad:

I think Roger summed it up perfectly when he said No5's and their parts have become unobtainium!

Whats the No5 situation like across the pond in North America and down there with our Antipodean brothers?

I see I'm going to have to dig in deep to find a good one guys...

Yep......good ones have risen dramatically in the past couple of years.

I bought mine 2 years ago, very lucky to find a nice one, that also shoots very well, but was still £850 2 years ago, and that was slightly cheaper than a few others, as it had a 'short' butt, but I had a 'long' butt for a No.5 at home so wasn't worried about that issue.

I had been trying to prize the No.5 from the hands of our Club President as he was coming up for hanging up his FAC....but he was reluctant to part with it, as he's owned it since the late 1960's.
When I went to see my one, I wasn't going to pass on it. The guy who came through our club probation after me had a hankering for one as well, for the same family connection to the No.5 as me, and when he got his ticket he bought a peach of a wartime dated one with tight bore from Richard at Devizes Gunsmith, and paid a 4-figure sum for it, but I don't think it shot as well as mine, but sadly, that one is now lost forever.
We've also lost track of the one owned by our Club Pres, as at 84 he was forced on medical grounds to give up his ticket just before last xmas, and all his stuff had to go quickly into a RFD, and we suspect that No.5 has now been sold by the RFD or passed further through the trade.

I don't shoot mine too much, but, its a keeper.....especially as my late father loved the No.5 from his Army days......and I can always here his words of instruction in my head whenever I shoot mine.

I just attended the Chilliwack gun show, several others here did too...and there was at least 12+ there. None were shabby that I say and a few bordered on as new. The prices were from $500 to $2000CDN for the as new one. (I knew that guy and it was). That one also has the bayonet... I had two there, one was scoped because the as new gun had been sporterized by grinding off the rear sight ears and mounting a scope. The other was a new barrel and all metal was excellent but all the wood had been fashioned from #4 wood. Both mine were $350CDN and not included in my count.

There's lots around these parts.

Here in Aus I don't see them for sale on the net that often on the usual sites, but went to a gun show last weekend and saw two examples if I am remember correctly. The one was complete and in typical Enfield shape and the seller was asking $1400, which I thought was reasonable. The other one was a missing its steel nosecap and I don't think I saw its price. Considering there is a shop over here charging that money for run of the mill SMLE's I don't think those prices are unreasonable.

John, I can't say I've ever been keen on them, they look nice etc and handling them it can give you flash backs of jungle warfare, (not that ever been in a jungle in a war) but you get the idea, as for shooting them ........ well anything cut down is going to give a good wallop.

2 F/Sale over East one with bayo $2500/Au the other $1400/Au as there were only 251,368 total; 81,329 (BSA Shirley), 169,807 (ROF Fazakerley) they are on the light side when you consider the production figures of the No 1 MkIII and the No.4 rifles.

Recently sold two here in Ontario both as New Fazakerly's 1946 and 1947 $1200 each

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

2 F/Sale over East one with bayo $2500/Au the other $1400/Au as there were only 251,368 total; 81,329 (BSA Shirley), 169,807 (ROF Fazakerley) they are on the light side when you consider the production figures of the No 1 MkIII and the No.4 rifles.

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Cinders, Fazakerley production was about 250,000 alone, the often quoted number of 169,807 is only into 1945 & part way though the S prefix to which the rest of S prefix plus T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z, AA, AB & AC prefixes have to be added which is about another 100,000 rifles

Thats just what wiki said for the prod's I was just too lazy to drag out either Skennertons or Strattons books just goes to show that web page sucks............

Thanks for all the feed back guys... Interesting, it appears No5's are more readily available in North America than here in the UK.

I suppose that figures, there are more collectors, therefore a greater market and the Rifles have been migrating and following the buying public since being surped back in the late 50's/ early 60's.

Most of the examples I have seen here over the last year have been freshly imported from Europe, with CIP proof marks.

Quite a few of these seem to have the bayonet boss removed, suggesting possible Police use somewhere perhaps?

The other source seems to be Indian refurbs, with typical Indian scrubbed receiver markings, Ishey screw and stamped Armoury butt Roundels.


Geoff, I have to say I rather like these handy little carbines, I don't find the recoil too excessive with factory ammo, less than my Springfield anyway mate.

John,
Give Simon a ring he always has a few around the £600 mark, nearly bought one in 7.62 last year from him;)

Highwood Classic Arms

I have two of which one is very nice (see the attached pics) I would be looking to sell, export to the UK is no trouble at all if you have a dealer I can ship it to.

Edit: since you were asking, the removal of the bayonet was based on an old German gun law. Stupid, I know. They often also added a welding dot to the rear sight to block it for distances above 300 Meters.

Last one I picked up was a hand in for the last Amnesty, only cost me the time to do the paperwork:)

You lucky b*gger Muffett naah seriously good for you hopefully was un bubba'd

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Quite a few of these seem to have the bayonet boss removed, suggesting possible Police use somewhere perhaps?

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Over here, hunting rifles don't require a bayonet...or sight ears or a flash cone... That's why guys cut them.

Geez BAR you had me imagining a hunter going at a Rusa or Sambar or even a Moose with a one on one with bayonet V's Antlers............:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

a one on one with bayonet

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There was an ad in an old Bannerman catalogue that suggested having a bayonet for your Krag rifle so as to save the second shot with a downed animal...an ad from 1927...

You can just imagine someone doing a bayonet charge with a Krag on a downed deer Jim!

Dosen't seem terribly sporting!

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Most of the examples I have seen here over the last year have been freshly imported from Europe, with CIP proof marks.

Quite a few of these seem to have the bayonet boss removed, suggesting possible Police use somewhere perhaps?

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Yes, a batch came into UK that supposedly had been used by the West German Border Guard units that had been supplied them by us in the early days of its setup in the early 1950's, and as mentioned, being a civilian, not mil unit, they all had the bayonet lug ground off.
How true or not that is I don't but that's what I was told by a RFD that had a few of them for sale about 2 years ago.

The border police were known as the Bundesgrenzschultz, the link takes you to there history from March 1951. I cannot find a reference to the No.5 but they certainly had No.4's.
If you were an ex Wehrmacht soldier and had the choice of a k98 or a No.4, you would take the Mauser every time!


WWII equipment of the Bundesgrenzschutz wwiiafterwwii

By the same token (and not hijacking your thread John), I am looking for a mint No 4 Mk II ('54 or '55 Fazakerley, so-called Irish Contract) rifle, they too have all dried up at present!

No problem David, mint No4 mk2's are fetching stupid money now (if you can find one) .. Never mind in the wrap examples with matching, numbered No9 bayonets.

For Davis # 21 yep as Mr Clark says "Stupid Money"
Calibre/Item: 303
Make: Fazakerley
Model: No4 MK2
Action: Bolt Repeater
Scope: Open sights
Serial No: UF55 A33508
Condition: Very Good
Price: $1750
Advertised: 5/03/2018
Licence number: 1661876
Comment: No4 Mk2 Irish Contract 303. In the years after the Second World War, the British produced the No.4 Mk2 rifle, a refined and improved No.4 rifle with the trigger hung forward from the butt collar and not from the trigger guard, beech wood stocks (with the original reinforcing strap and centre piece of wood in the rear of the forestock on the No.4 Mk I/Mk I* being removed in favour of a tie screw and nut) and brass buttplates.
These Irish Contract Rifles were the last of the Lee Enfield British Rifles Manufactured, and as such they are highly collectable, as well as great for service rifle shooting.
This rifle is not unfired, and gauges as 0.325, with good head space.
The wood is unmarked and the metal has the usual marks from use.
Unfired specimens sell for more that $3000, making this rifle excellent value.

Calibre/Item: 303
Make: Fazakerley
Model: No 4 Mk III
Action: Bolt repeater
Serial No: A6820
Condition: New
Price: $2950Price Reduced
Advertised: 23/02/2018
Licence number: 50000232-07
Phone: 07 4772 1605
Comment: 1955 MFG original wrap and stamping, includes bayonet, very hard to find

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Most of the examples I have seen here over the last year have been freshly imported from Europe, with CIP proof marks. Quite a few of these seem to have the bayonet boss removed, suggesting possible Police use somewhere perhaps?

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Not so.
Although the Bavarian police, for instance, used .30M1 carbines, I am not aware of any police force using Enfield No.5 rifles. Could be wrong, of course.

If you find a rifle missing its bayonet boss and with a CIP stamp, then it is most likely a "civilian" from Germany. Look to see if you can find tiny eagle stamps on the bolt (often barely visible) the barrel and the receiver. The barrel should have a complete set of civilian proof marks. See Wirnsberger "The Standard Directory of Proof marks" for details.

The German "Law on Control of Weapons of War" (Kriegeswaffenkontrollgesetz) used to have a stipulation that 1) all ex-service rifles had to have the sight range limited to 300 meters (this was usually done by welding a spot onto the sight leaf) 2) all bayonet bosses had to be removed. Apparently some bureaucrat was worried about madmen taking shots at a couple of kilometers distance and then charging the rest of the way with a fixed bayonet. Even dafter: the sight ears on .30 M1 Garands and carbines were also often removed in a ludicrous attempt to spoil the military "look" of the rifle. It took decades, but this particular piece of nonsense has now been deleted.

As a result, items such as the Garand gas cylinder front-end with an intact bayonet boss now have a premium price over here.

Still speak to Simon Pemberton at Highwood Classics number above on previous thread, he's the boy for this sort after query;);)

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Still speak to Simon Pemberton at Highwood Classics number above on previous thread, he's the boy for this sort after query;);)

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Or indeed, Richard Stork at Devizes Gunsmiths who still seems to be able to turn up No.5's now and again.

Evening all, a fellow Milsurper has made me a great offer, now its in the hands of the Chancellor!

Case for buying made (you all know the one) "it only goes up in value"...

To be fair, in the case off classic Lee's it does.

Anyway, looks like a yes, so more info when I get her guys.

---------- Post added at 11:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 PM ----------

I forgot to say, many thanks for everyone's feedback, as ever its always appreciated.

John

Result, well done!

The fellow Milsurper hasn't got a mint Faz No 4 has he, lol :lol:

Anyone wants to see how many #5 carbines are available and price, look at CanadianGunNutz for a minute. Look at the military...WTS...maybe a dozen this minute.

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Originally Posted by David TS

By the same token (and not hijacking your thread John), I am looking for a mint No 4 Mk II ('54 or '55 Fazakerley, so-called Irish Contract) rifle, they too have all dried up at present!

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Have you tried Ian at ITL Shooting Supplies - he did have a few of them, described "as new"?

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

Have you tried Ian at ITL Shooting Supplies - he did have a few of them, described "as new"?

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Yes I have, thanks, they all went at the Shooting Show, whilst I was waiting for my variation to come through! :thdown:

Around these parts you can find them in reasonable condition for $500, sometimes less.

No. 5's were never made in large quantities in the first place. Mind you, the days of there being large numbers of any kind of milsurp in decent condition are long gone. So are the days of there being warehouses full of rifles in 'war storage'.
"...more readily available in North America..." Yep. Your government couldn't get 'em out of the country fast enough. Needed strong currencies.
Fazakerley production was supposedly only 2/3 of the entire 250,000. And only between 1944 and 1947.
Any found in 'new' or 'like new' condition have been made that way by somebody with a lot of time on their hands.

I'm glad my rifle found a good home, and I hope you will show it to the guys here once you have received it! :thup:

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Originally Posted by Promo

I'm glad my rifle found a good home, and I hope you will show it to the guys here once you have received it!

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Will do Georg, I very much look forward to repatriating a No5 back to the old country! Pics when I get her guys.:beerchug:

I lost count of how many I exported back to the UK ten plus years ago to one dealer in particular in West Sussex. Many were pretty much excellent to "as new" because that's how they were originally imported to the USA from the UK prior to 1968. I hung on to a couple of nice examples. I've always been a great fan of the No.5Mk.1.

I suppose I can see why so many disappeared to all points of the compass.

They were surplus to requirments much earlier than the No4. I am guessing that many went straight from the factory to store.

I wonder, did the examples used in the Malayan emergency remain on issue despite obsolescence being declared some years earlier, or did a small number have to be taken from store?

I think many new condition No.5 rifles were surplused and exported to the USA by companies like Interarms in the 50's and 60's simply because they were obsolete in British service The Indian and southeast Asian weapons are a different kettle of fish and most have seen very hard use in the hot, humid environments of that region of the world. Peter L was at 40 Base Workshops during the huge rebuild programs in the 60's and maybe he can elaborate more.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I lost count of how many I exported back to the UK ten plus years ago to one dealer in particular in West Sussex. Many were pretty much excellent to "as new" because that's how they were originally imported to the USA from the UK prior to 1968.

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That sends a shiver down my spine, as if that West Sussex dealer was Worthing Guns or Arundel Militaria, then I can pretty much say that they would have all ended up being cut and de-activated :(

Rest easy. It was Arundel Classic Guns and none got butchered into deacts as far as I know. Arundel Militaria is a different outfit. I was at Worthing Guns with Terry Abrams a couple of times in 2009. You're right about that place. Everything was being butchered into deacts by Terry. Made two trips to the Birmingham Proof House too with Terry.

:( Here is what happened to one very nice 47.

That looked like it was a peach as well :rolleyes:

I can't be too critical, as I bought this 02/46 dated de-act No.5 about 20 years ago for my late father to refurb and wall mount, as the No.5 was his favourite of the 3 x Lee's from his wartime/post-war Army service.

I inherited it back after he passed away, and luckily still had it when I finally acquired my live No.5 a couple of years ago, which was very fortunate, as the live one had a rare 'S' short butt fitted, which wasn't that great for me, having long arms etc., but, the de-act was fitted with an equally rare 'L' long butt, so was able to swap the butts over, making mine a lot more comfortable to fire :dancingbanana:
I was able to sell the de-act a few months later.

My brother bought a No5 recently, along with two other old rifles. It was an elderly neighbour of his in BC, who asked my brother if he would take the rifles off his hands for $150 Can. The No5 needed original wood as it had been "sporterised", he got the original wood from Numrich and finally a front band. Divide 150 by 3 and it cost $50 Can, lucky so and so.

My dad thought they were a great little rifle, but he did say they had a bit more recoil than the No4.

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Originally Posted by IanS

My dad thought they were a great little rifle, but he did say they had a bit more recoil than the No4.

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They do indeed bite quite a bit more than a No.4, and they bark a lot more as well..........:D

My dad sold his in the 60's I think, for $24 Can. My brother has dad's No4 Mk1 which was bought unused for $25 Can, back in the 50's, the dealer in Calgary had bought a large consignment. Aren't the No 5's currently around £800 in the UK?

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Originally Posted by IanS

Aren't the No 5's currently around £800 in the UK?

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As an average price, yes, anything between £700-£1000 for a decent one from a dealer, when you can find them. A mate in my club bought a mint one off of Richard at Devizes around this time last year, and paid over a £1000 for it. I paid £850 for mine over 2 years ago from C&G.

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

A mate in my club bought a mint one off of Richard at Devizes around this time last year, and paid over a £1000 for it.

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Do you know if this was rifle serial A124?

Well, I still have a second one for sale, not as nice as the one that John bought from me, but still...

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Originally Posted by Promo

Do you know if this was rifle serial A124?

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I couldn't say, I know it was a wartime date, but can't remember if it was a '44 or early '45 dated rifle.

Just found a No5 at Donaldsons, converted to 308, looks very tidy and priced at £799. Sorry, a converted No 4, trust me to get it wrong.

Here is the link. S/H .308 Enfield, Lee No.4 Jungle Carbine Rifle - All Rifles For Sale - Donaldson Guns, Gunsmiths and shooting Sports in Buckinghamshire

Ian

being deactivated as worth more

MFL have what looks like a nice one for £750, and it hasn't had its bayonet lug ground off.

http://www.mflclassicfirearms.co.uk/dg/33820/2


Devizes Gunsmith has one as well, with what seems a tight gauging barrel, but is without the bayonet lug, as many are.

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

They do indeed bite quite a bit more than a No.4, and they bark a lot more as well..........:D

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The recoil element is interesting and perhaps a matter of perception.

If you predominantly shoot .303, 7.62x51 .30-06 etc, the bite is only slightly increased, nothing to write home about.

If you are more use to 5.56mm then the bite will seem excessive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

MFL have what looks like a nice one for £750, and it hasn't had its bayonet lug ground off.

http://www.mflclassicfirearms.co.uk/dg/33820/2


Devizes Gunsmith has one as well, with what seems a tight gauging barrel, but is without the bayonet lug, as many are.

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Life is all about timing........I was with Steve at MFL (he's a mate, and a member of the same rifle club as me) on Friday, I could have had a look at it!

Morning all. I have my new No5 from Promo and couldn't be happier.

It was kindly received by Richard Stork and its a super example.

Fazakerley May 1945 with a normal butt, she's seen virtually no use, gauges as new with a pristine bore and fitted with a "0" bolt head that also has absolutely no pitting or primer marks on its face, fully intact rubber butt pad too.

All parts appear to be Faz, correct and as built.

The woodwork needs a bit of tidying up and she will be heading for the workshop this weekend for a bit of light work.

She has the appearance of being carried quite a bit but very rarely shot.

Traces of rock hard cosmoline all over her at present.

German proofed.

Pics next week. I need a bayonet for her next..

All in all I couldn't be happier with it, Cheers Promo, many thanks mate!

I've a bayonet John but no scabbard, could do with a refinish though to match your rifle.

I bought one a few years back at a gun show in Kamloops, BC. Paid $500 or so with the bayonet. Rifle was matching, but sadly when I got it home I realized the butt stock was a No. 4 mocked up to look like a No. 5. Still a good deal despite this, though. Have been looking for a blonde coloured No. 5 butt ever since. I always thought there seemed to be a lot of these in Canada for how many were made.

I would guess the reason a lot of these ended up in Canada was the thought that the No5 made a cheap light weight hunting or camp rifle, straight out of the gun shop, without having to turn it into a sporter first...

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Originally Posted by Doug2500

the butt stock was a No. 4 mocked up to look like a No. 5.

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The real armorers did use those to make #5 butts towards the end of their service life...

Jim,
Absolutely correct there mate.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

It was kindly received by Richard Stork and its a super example.

Fazakerley May 1945 with a normal butt, she's seen virtually no use, gauges as new with a pristine bore and fitted with a "0" bolt head that also has absolutely no pitting or primer marks on its face, fully intact rubber butt pad too.

All parts appear to be Faz, correct and as built.

The woodwork needs a bit of tidying up and she will be heading for the workshop this weekend for a bit of light work.

She has the appearance of being carried quite a bit but very rarely shot.

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Wow..........nice.

A hardly shot No.5 is indeed a rare thing, congratulations.

Look forward to seeing the photo's.

Pics up next week, wood refurbished today, rifle complete strip down, detail clean of the action and bolt.

The worst of the dents steamed out, red scotch off all the layers of accumulated dirt and the start of the first of many Linseed oil treatments.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

The worst of the dents steamed out, red scotch off all the layers of accumulated dirt and the start of the first of many Linseed oil treatments.

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Steaming out dents........ interesting, might have a go at the big 'scar' on the side of the wood on my No.5 with steam, which is the only major blemish on mine.

It works well on bruised wood, won't have much effect on woodwork that's been dented.

Always worth a go mind you. If you haven't tried it before, try on a spare piece of woodwork first to get the hang of it.

Lots of variables, type and cut of wood for instance. Go too far and you can raise the surface.

Give it a go, the results work well.

I also tried Liberon wood stopper on a couple of deep dents, wood pulp and cellulose based, it comes in a variety of colours, I mixed dark and mid oak to get a good match with the original wood colour.

sub'd to this threadhttps://www.milsurps.com/

Here she is guys, a little sensitive woodwork restoration, new old stock Faz magazine, many coats of raw linseed oil applied and a bloody good overall clean!

Attachment 92853Attachment 92854Attachment 92855Attachment 92856

Looks great John. Be interested to hear how it shoots.

Cheers, Kev

John

That's a nice honest looking rifle :thup:

Very Nice John, all the better its wearing walnut........

Cheers guys, hoping for a shoot next week, weather dependent... A Huge thanks to Promo (Georg) for getting her to me...:beerchug:

It was a nice rifle when I had sold it to you, but now it is perfect! You did an excellent job!

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Originally Posted by Promo

It was a nice rifle when I had sold it to you, but now it is perfect! You did an excellent job!

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Cheers Georg,:) looking forward to shooting her next week, I made some small adjustments to the bedding, so some zeroing in is on the cards no doubt mate...

Morning all,

Proper shoot yesterday, all very tight to start with with some very fine scratches in the spent brass, after 20 rounds these started to fade and things loosened up a bit.

She shoots like a brand new rifle, even the spring resistance on the bolt feels stiffer than my other Enfields.

Printing 3" nice round groups at 100yds, just fine by me.

80 rounds down range yesterday before moving to the comparatively gentle shove of my L1A1.

Boy do the Carbines heat up fast!

Very happy indeed with the No5, just a blast to shoot (both figuratively and literally)!:cheers:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Printing 3" nice round groups at 100yds

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Pretty acceptable.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Proper shoot yesterday, all very tight to start with with some very fine scratches in the spent brass, after 20 rounds these started to fade and things loosened up a bit.

She shoots like a brand new rifle, even the spring resistance on the bolt feels stiffer than my other Enfields.

Printing 3" nice round groups at 100yds, just fine by me.

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Sounds lovely, and 3" at 100 is :thup:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

80 rounds down range yesterday before moving to the comparatively gentle shove of my L1A1.

Boy do the Carbines heat up fast!

Very happy indeed with the No5, just a blast to shoot (both figuratively and literally)!:cheers:

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Oh yeah, they blast just fine :D

My Dad always mentioned the heat issue, compounded in his case as his time spent with a No.5 was his 12 month tour in the heat of the Middle East in Palestine in 1946/7.

I realize this is an old thread but I felt I needed to say something anyway. I picked up a Mk5 several months ago here in Montana for $600.00, all serial #s matching, even the # painted on the buttstock in fading blue paint. Strong rifling and not a speck of rust anywhere. Having to retune the magazine lips to get it to feed reliably with my handloads but making progress...is the reason I joined this forum. Ordered a Mk4 magazine a couple days ago from Numrich hoping to luck out and get one that might miraculously work well without any tuning... This carbine rested in my safe til just last week unfired what with my other projects taking up my time.

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Originally Posted by manykids

Ordered a Mk4 magazine a couple days ago from Numrich hoping to luck out and get one that might miraculously work well without any tuning...

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You'll be amazingly lucky if that happens.

Is the mag that came with the No.5 number matching?
If so, I would just keep tuning it until it feeds well, rather than fitting another one, that will also almost certainly need fine tuning as well.

Yes, matching number, I realize the mag is a longshot but worth taking a chance to me.

I remember a thread about fixing non-working LE mags, or the knowledge library, or somewhere on the forum. Have you done a search here?

I've been searching but so far my search words haven't pulled up anything relevant, I'm slowly working my way through the LE topic threads and have gotten as far as this thread so far. It's been slow going, it's also why I made my original post in the hopes of hearing any feedback, which I appreciate.

They were, and still are a beautiful light weight rifle in comparison, and just what the jungle ordered.
The days of picking these up cheap have long gone, as ALL prices of rifles start to climb, probably through fear of what is to come next........who knows, but something has suddenly prompted a revival in gun ownership in the US/Canada and the UK;)

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

They were, and still are a beautiful light weight rifle in comparison, and just what the jungle ordered.

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Except they were never designed for the Jungle.......

Should be referred to the Mountain or Airborne Carbine if anything...... :lol:

First used in action by 52nd Lowland Division in Holland in 1944, then issued to 1st AB Div for the operations in Norway at wars end. It was then issued to all units fighting and policing in Palestine in 1945-48 (two of my uncles served with the 1st Batt Argyll's in Palestine and both were issued No.5's) and my father was with 717 Construction Squadron RE in Palestine in 1946-47 and was issued a No.5 for the duration of his tour.
The No.5 saw service in Holland, Norway and the Middle East before it ever saw use in a Jungle :)

I'm sure I've seen photo's of British troops in Norway in 1945 bearing No5's........

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I'm sure I've seen photo's of British troops in Norway in 1945 bearing No5's........

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Yep, 1st Airborne Division were re-equipped with No.5's that they took to Norway in spring of 1945.

Photo's existing of 52nd Div troops with No.5's in Holland in November 1944.

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Originally Posted by manykids

I realize this is an old thread but I felt I needed to say something anyway. I picked up a Mk5 several months ago here in Montana for $600.00, all serial #s matching, even the # painted on the buttstock in fading blue paint. Strong rifling and not a speck of rust anywhere. Having to retune the magazine lips to get it to feed reliably with my handloads but making progress...is the reason I joined this forum. Ordered a Mk4 magazine a couple days ago from Numrich hoping to luck out and get one that might miraculously work well without any tuning... This carbine rested in my safe til just last week unfired what with my other projects taking up my time.

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Never saw any in Havre, you must be in the southern part of the state.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I'm sure I've seen photo's of British troops in Norway in 1945 bearing No5's........

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1st Picture - 1st Airborne Division Oslo
2nd Picture - Norway 1945
3rd Picture - Palestine 1946-47
4th Picture - Malayan Emergency
5th Picture - Mau Mau uprising.
6th Picture - 6th Army Group

The Kings African Rifles were equipped with No.5 during their service in Malaya in the '50's and was still largely equipped with No.5's when disbanded in 1963.
Those No.5's from that source are still being used today by the game wardens in Kenya in the fight against poaching.

Kenyan Game warden patrolling the bush in 2008 with his No.5 with a well worn butt pad.

Attachment 111034

Here is my Uncle Bob and my Uncle Bill together in Palestine in 1946 with their No.5's while both were serving with the 1st Battalion Argyll's.

Attachment 111035

People often ask about markings painted on the woodwork of their rifles - they usually turn out to be rack numbers. There's a classic example of this in photo number 3 of Alan's post.

Roger,
Your dead right. The times it has been said though or asked on here, they are simply each Battalions Armourer's way of issuing out rifles at a quick pace, signature, bolt back to show its clear, sign the form.....over to you!

Great thread on the No 5, so I thought i'd add my 2c worth. Usually referred to as the Jungle carbine here in Australia for as long as I can remember, I picked up my first one when I was 18 from a shady dealer in North Queensland. Paid $400.00 for it then, which in the 1970's was a huge price for any ex-mil rifle. Considering full wood Lithgow SMLE's were going for @ $65.00 in really good condition ( $12.50 extra for a bayonet! ), and new in the box Long branch No4 rifles were going for $80 from Mick Smiths Gun shop in Sydney, it gives you some idea of their perceived value.

Mine was purchased as a hunting rifle, mainly for wild pigs in thick scrub, which it excelled at, and was my favourite for some years. It was also used extensively on Buffalo and scrub bulls when I moved to the Northern territory in the early eighties. One particularly vivid memory was shooting a running Buffalo one handed from the back of a 4WD at nearly point blank range; my other hand was holding a death like grip on the roll bar. Like previously mentioned, it was a very handy little carbine, and well suited to my needs at the time.

That was 40 years ago now, and what ever faults or criticisms that come up about the No. 5 rifle are pretty well irrelevant to their actual serviceability. Stories of "wandering zeroes', excessive recoil, muzzle blast, drops in velocity etc, are all fine for academic discussion by armchair experts. I'm just happy to have had the time I did with mine.

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Originally Posted by AradoAR234

Paid $400.00 for it then, which in the 1970's was a huge price

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Sure was, got my first, a matching numbers gun in mint shape for $125 in about 1975. Even the mag...matched.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Sure was, got my first, a matching numbers gun in mint shape for $125 in about 1975. Even the mag...matched.

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Not sure what Canadian dollars were worth back then, but that sounds like a really good price for an all-matching mint rifle. For all my fond memories, they have always been overpriced by comparison. I also had an FN Cavalry Carbine in 30-06 that served me very well, and it was in very good shape, for only $75.00. Same length barrel as the No.5, and with a turned down bolt, but nowhere near as slick. Still a great little rifle all the same.

I see Jungle Carbines advertised fairly frequently on sites like Ozgunsales etc, but all the collectables are at least $2,000.00 plus, and the rough or non-matching ones are still fetching @$1400, plus the fakes that have a habit of continually showing up.

I'd have another one tomorrow, but like a 70's Colt Python, I just can't justify the price on something I'll probably never use again. Only Fallow deer in Tasmania, and I don't need another .303 for them.

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Originally Posted by AradoAR234

I see Jungle Carbines advertised fairly frequently on sites like Ozgunsales etc, but all the collectables are at least $2,000.00 plus, and the rough or non-matching ones are still fetching @$1400, plus the fakes that have a habit of continually showing up.

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That's about the going rate for them over here, when they come up for sale. Most I've seen one for sale was £1400 (AUS$2500) and that was a couple of years ago. Whether it sold for that or not is another matter. I've not seen one listed for sale in the usual known UK L-E dealers for a good while now.....

My good friend and fellow rifle club member lucked into an absolute peach of a No.5 last summer. By shear chance he had just popped into his old country sports gun shop as he was passing by, and they had just got back from being called out to clear the gun cabinet of a just deceased licence holder, and they were booking his stuff in.....and there on the counter was a mint No.5......and so, he was able to put his name down for first in the queue for it once they and the solicitors had agreed the value.
Once that had been done, he effectively got it for about £600.....and its utterly mint, almost unissued I'd say. Its like looking at a brand new No.5. Matched and numbered mag, spotless and unmarked in the mag well, bore like new.....amazing thing. Its also a M47C No.5 as well, and from what I can find out looks to be in the last known block of M47C serial numbers so one of the very last lot made. If that had been for sale at a couple of well known L-E RFD's in the UK, I'm sure it would have been £1500+.
Right place right time lottery win for him.

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Originally Posted by AradoAR234

Not sure what Canadian dollars were worth back then, but that sounds like a really good price for an all-matching mint rifle.

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It was all I wanted to pay for sure...prices, a new full size car cost $3000CDN, I was making $330 gross a month and taking home two pays of $90... A new built three bedroom house was $25,000. A Corvette Stingray by Chev cost $5000.

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Originally Posted by AradoAR234

I see Jungle Carbines advertised fairly frequently on sites like Ozgunsales etc, but all the collectables are at least $2,000.00 plus, and the rough or non-matching ones are still fetching @$1400,

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Here they seem to be about $1000+ CDN for near new and a bit lesser condition are about $800CDN.

I bought mine from Georg (Promo) of this parish a couple of years ago for very reasonable money, Georg is an absolute gentleman to deal with.

Imported it and she's lovely, post on here somewhere. Faz May 45 dated and gauges as new.

Very little use in service obviously, more carrying than shooting. A little cosmetic work and she's looking suburb. Shoots beutifully too.

I haven't checked in on prices since I bought mine, but I see they are still going up and up in value..

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I haven't checked in on prices since I bought mine, but I see they are still going up and up in value..

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Not easy to do that when there's been so few on the market since then :)

I've only seen one put up by Highwood Classics on his website that already had a reserve set against it with no price, so clearly Simon already had someone on his 'if you get one in let me know' list, so it was in and out in an instance. That's the only real one I've seen advertised in at least the past 18 months in the UK from the "usual suspects" list of RFD's.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

It was all I wanted to pay for sure...prices, a new full size car cost $3000CDN, I was making $330 gross a month and taking home two pays of $90... A new built three bedroom house was $25,000. A Corvette Stingray by Chev cost $5000.



Here they seem to be about $1000+ CDN for near new and a bit lesser condition are about $800CDN.

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Makes me want to immigrate to Canada...….are your politicians as bad as ours?

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Originally Posted by AradoAR234

are your politicians as bad as ours

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Seems to be about the same right now...

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

Not easy to do that when there's been so few on the market since then :)

I've only seen one put up by Highwood Classics on his website that already had a reserve set against it with no price, so clearly Simon already had someone on his 'if you get one in let me know' list, so it was in and out in an instance. That's the only real one I've seen advertised in at least the past 18 months in the UK from the "usual suspects" list of RFD's.

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I see what you mean, not a thing out there!

The last batch that hit the UK trade in any number, all seemed to be ex Indian examples with the typical refinishing and ishy screw.

I've taken my eye off the ball this year with Milsurps and it's all a little thin on the ground. it's interesting to note the price of available No1 and No4 rifles continues to steadily rise too.

Interesting to read your comments gents. I've had one of the first thousand off the production line (FE prefix, dated '1/44' & over-engraved '2/44', (both being before the official adoption date) - & with the straight up & down flash hider sight ears characteristic of these first rifles) for sale for a while. It has been refurbished & rebarrelled with a correct No5 barrel & the original flash eliminator refitted, but it's a real one. Maybe it hasn't sold as it's obviously far too cheap, having read this thread!?%:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Maybe it hasn't sold as it's obviously far too cheap, having read this thread!?%

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You know that sometimes that's the problem. If you increase it by a thousand pound, then if it doesn't sell at least you can figure it was too high. At least you can justify...