A couple No. 4 questions after a trip to the range...

So I got out to the range today to zero a couple LE No4’s I picked up. Both are 1943 Longbranch MkI*’s. The first rifle was dead on at 25meters... For a 400meter zero. I know that the elevation is set by the front sight post but I’m horrible at math, can anyone tell me which sight I need to get for a proper 200meter zero?

The second rifle keyholed all over the place. I’ve seen this before with AK’s but never experienced it with LE’s and am looking for possibilities of what might be causing it. The barrel looks ok but I haven’t run a borescope down it yet to really get a good look. The stock is sloppy loose so I wonder if that might have caused it, but it strikes me as unlikely.

Both rifles were shot with Hornady 174gr Match ammo.

Can anyone help me out?

Did you try elevating the sight ladder to 200 to see what the fall of shot is? Or did you just use the battle sight?

In the second case your bullets aren't stabilizing so they keyhole. Probably too long ro it doesn't like boat tail bullets, try some 150 flat base or 180 flat base to see...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Did you try elevating the sight ladder to 200 to see what the fall of shot is? Or did you just use the battle sight?

In the second case your bullets aren't stabilizing so they keyhole. Probably too long ro it doesn't like boat tail bullets, try some 150 flat base or 180 flat base to see...

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I had the micrometer sight set at the 200m.

The best solution is to chose or reload one load or brand of ammo for them I would suggest reloading as you can tailor a load that suits each one or just find a load after copious amounts of range time like I did to get to a load that suits all my 303's 4's & MkIII's.
You could try the 150gn Hornady Spire points as they are .312" I crimp into the cannular leaving @1/16" of it showing they shoot quite well I would not be interested in changing the front sight till you get the keyholing episode sorted it could be as one member here says your barrel "Has had the hairy banana."
You do not say if its the Butt or fore woods that are loose, if its the butt then see if the stock bolts loose if the bottom fore wood is loose then that needs attention well they both do as having it like it is will only cause damage to the woodwork in areas that are the most important to the Lee run over all the screws see if the front wood has the collar under the trigger guard screw front (Think thats how the armourers here say it)

I’m not even considering changing the front sight on keyhole rifle right now... One problem at a time. My question about which front sight I need is for the rifle that didn’t keyhole and shot on the 400m line on the zero target.

As for what part of the stock it loose, it’s the bottom forewood. And like I said, I’ll probably get it restocked and set up proper anyway. In general I’ve stuck to the 174gr Hornady match ammo as it’s grouoed well in my other rifles, but I’ll try out some of the flat base bullets as well. Thanks for the words.

Ama well you may want to get a big cuppa or a long neck beer here's the drill on how to get the sight height Good luck if you have a sibling who is good a math then enlist them, my wife is really good at stuff like this me its all just ants on a page! Or anyone else who requires this formula.............

Calculating Correct Front Sight Height for Zero;

Principle,

There is a linear relationship linking the distances between:

1. The front and rear sight distance, and

2. The change in height needed for the front sight of the rifle and the actual location of the bullet, above or below the bull’s-eye on the target.

Equation
A = the distance from the rear sight to the front sight. Units are in inches and approximate.

B = the distance from the barrel of the rifle to the target. Example: 100 yards (3600 inches), 200 yards (7200 inches), etc. Units are in inches.

C = the CHANGE in height required in the front (or rear) sight. Units are in inches.

D = the height ABOVE or BELOW the bull’s-eye of the target. Units are in inches.

Note
1. On a SMLE the distance between rear and front sights is approximately 19.5 inches.

2. On a No4 MkI the distance between rear and front sights is approximately 28.5 inches.

3. On a No5 MkI the distance between rear and front sights is approximately 23.25 inches.

4. On a P-14 the distance between rear and front sights is approximately 37.75 inches.

Actual Relationship
A is to B, as C is to D. Therefore, the formula is as follows:

A/B = C/D

Restated: A x D = B x C or C = (A x D) / B

Examples
1. A SMLE (fitted with a +.045 front sight blade) shoots a 5 shot group 8 inches above the bulls-eye at 100 yards.

C = (A x D) / B. C = (19.5” x 8”) / 3600”. C = 0.043 inches. Therefore, you must INCREASE the front sight height by 0.043 inches.

(+.045 add 0.043 equals +0.088, closest sight +.090)

2. A No4 MkI (fitted with a -.015 front sight blade) shoots a 5 shot group 5 inches above the bulls-eye at 100 yards.

C = (A x D) / B. C = (28.5” x 5”) / 3600”. C = 0.040 inches. Therefore, you must INCREASE the front sight height by 0.040 inches.

(-.015 add 0.040 equals +0.025, closest sight +.030)

3. A No5 MkI (fitted with a +.075 front sight blade) shoots a 5 shot group 5 inches below the bulls-eye at 100 yards.

C = (A x D) / B. C = (23.25” x 6”) / 3600”. C = 0.039 inches. Therefore, you must LOWER the front sight height by 0.039 inches.

(+.075 subtract 0.039 equals 0.036, closest sight +.030)

4.A P-14 (fitted with a +.060 front sight blade) shoots a 5 shot group 6 inches below the bulls-eye at 100-yards.

C = (A x D) / B. C = (31.75” x 6”) / 3600”. C = 0.053 inches. Therefore, you must LOWER the front sight height by 0.053 inches.

(+.060 subtract 0.053 equals 0.007, closest sight .0)

With the proper height of front sight to correctly adjust for elevation zero, it can now be drifted within the dovetail to correct for windage zero and staked in place.

Using surplus MkVII Ball ammunition, keeping in mind that the rear battle sight on these rifles is designed for a 300 yard zero, a correct MPI at 100 yards should be 8 ½ inches (+/- 1 inch) above the point of aim. At 200 yards the MPI would be 4 ¼ inches (+/- ½ inch). If zeroing at 25 yards the MPI should be about 2 inches above the point of aim. If zeroed in this manner it will also ensure that the range adjustable micrometer sight is zeroed as well.

This last statement sums it all up Range time..... is the only way to get your DOPE and put it on a spread sheet or pocket book for consultation on the day we all had to do it with our handloads.

The equation is valid no matter what ammunition is used, however the shooter or handloader will have to figure out his/her own exterior ballistics information to come up with the correct MPI placement at any given range.

Stupid question, but since I’m shooting at a 25m target for a 200m zero, do I still use the 200m (7200in) distance for B?

There is a proper 25yd target with all the cross hazes for all ranges. Some have a half bull others are full bull for middle aim or bottom black aim.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

There is a proper 25yd target with all the cross hazes for all ranges. Some have a half bull others are full bull for middle aim or bottom black aim.

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That’s what I used...

Did you have a metric target or a yard target. The rear sights if adjustable is in yards . Half bulls and full bulls make a huge difference. Half bull for hunting and full bull for target shooting. There will be a number on the front sight this is how you know what to change to. There are posts on this subject.

The half bull target found here...

https://www.milsurps.com/enfield.php?pg=ti16.htm

You said at the oputset that the fore-end is sloppy loose. Like taking your car out with loose wheel nuts and complaining to the garage that it handles like a stuck pig. Get that sorted out and fitted properly, make sure rifle is in good overall mechanical condition and THEN range test it. Absolutely no point whatsoever doing anything else before you fit the fore-end believe me.

I'm always kind of amazed at how simple zeroing becomes such a complicated discussion. I have the 1948 Rifle and Bayonet Infantry Training Pamphlet open in front of me. It's an amazing wealth of knowledge at $15 and postage for perfect reprints by the way but… I disgress.

I shoot at a 1" black paster on an 8" x 11" sheet of paper at 25 yards using a sandbag. The point of impact with a Mk.1 rear sight using the small aperture set on 200 yards is 3/4" above the point of aim, (holding six o'clock on the paster). Permissible variation, (vertical), is +/- 2". Each height of blade should increase/decrease the POI by 1/2" at 25 yards. That's it in black and whilte as written by the MoD.

The key holing is from boat tail projectiles in a barrel well shot with cordite ammo. The throat/leade in the barrel has a wear pattern that will not stabilize the projectiles. Get some flat base projectiles as BAR suggested. Your forend may only need adjustment. IMHO, restocking is the last resort if the original can be adjusted/fitted properly.

Wobbly woodwork should not cause key-holing, just ugly groups..

Keyholes on targets are a sure sign the bullet is not even remotely stabilized. In turn, this means that it is not being spun fast enough to maintain orientation whilst battling aerodynamic forces.

The standard barrel has a 1:10" twist, left hand. At proper velocities, that twist will stabilize ALL bullets as long as the old "torpedoes" and Mk7 and shorter.

If you back off the velocity, you likewise back off the spin rate.

7.62 x 39 barrels all seem to have a 1:10" twist rate (RH). Oddly enough, even Tokarev TT-33 pistols have the same twist.

Why? Probably because ALL of their barrels were made on originals or copies of the good old British and American supplied machinery imported into Russia to make the M-91 Moisin Nagant rifles, which have that same 1:10" twist.

1:10" twist is WAY over what is required to stabilize the short 124gn bullets even at the relatively low velocities in an AK. As for the short bullet fired from the 7.62 x 25 pistols and SMGs; if it works, it is not a silly idea. The practice certainly simplified a lot of tooling and gauging at manufacture.

If you throttle back loads in a given cartridge / barrel combination, you will eventually get to a point where the low muzzle velocity will not generate a spin-rate fast enough to stabilize the bullet.

The old Mk7 .303 bullet is BASE-heavy by design. Shoot them at low velocities from a standard barrel and they will wobble badly. There is ALWAYS some of this "wobbling" going on for a short distance after the bullet leaves the muzzle. How much "wobbling" and for how far, are determined by many factors: Condition of the crown, fit of the bullet to the bore and grooves, quality of the bullet, etc..

In a related note, specialist cartridges like the .300 Whisper / Blackout are designed to shoot LONG, heavy bullets at subsonic velocities. The long bullets used require a VERY fast twist to get the ROTATIONAL velocity needed to stabilize them.

A barrel that is badly flogged out at throat, bore and muzzle will not allow the attainment of sufficient velocity and thus, spin-rate, to achieve reliable stability. An oversized, uneven muzzle also contributes to uneven muzzle blast that acts rather forcefully on the tail of the bullet. Boat-tails are especially prone to dispersion caused by the extended action of this uneven blast on the conical tail of the bullet.

Picked up some Federal 150gr flat base soft points today... They seemed to shoot well out of the rifle. I didn’t zero as I still need to get it restocked and the proper front sight, butbit stablized the bullet.

If the rifle shoots well, why do you think it needs restocking?

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

If the rifle shoots well, why do you think it needs restocking?

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I didn’t say it shot well, I said it stabilized the bullet. It didn’t keyhole with the flat base. This stock has an excessive amount of play in all the wood.

You know thinking of what your saying it maybe that the wood is excessively dry and has shrunk over the years as we know nought of their history for all we know about it is it could have lived in a barn in the Arizona desert or Death Valley.
So strip all of the wood off the metal give it RLO/Min Turps 50/50 till it cannot soak up another drop letting it dry between coats whilst your there you can inspect the draws and anything else you can't whilst assembled thats what I would do as the very first thing before faffing about with anything else......

Most of the guys here are registered gunsmiths and or armourers whether in service or retired they offer their advice free of charge and with integrity, like I say to my son when he becomes to smart being a smart ar$e "Don't poke the Leopard" in reference to a game warden on you-tube who did that with a long stick to try and get a Leopard out of a cage in the back of a land Rover in Africa.
Upshot of that was the Leopard jumped out bolted into the passengers side only thing is he left the window down half way cats being cats it joined him in the cab luckily it could not get its back legs in there but it caned that chap really badly, I saw the aftermath pics he was not healthy looking more like he had been through a shredder.............

Here's the clip its worth watching the whole thing so you understand what & why the cat attacked.
Untamed And Uncut Leopard Attack - YouTube

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Originally Posted by amadeus76

The half bull target found here...

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Always known as a Tin Hat target in British service and at Bisley today.

Having just looked at a current NRA Zero Target from the range office, it shows the distance to be shot at as a very precise 71 feet. 7" inches.
Woe betide the man who cheats and shoots this at 71 feet and 6" inches!

Measured exactly from the muzzle SB its 22.86M for 25 yards as per target supplied by this site which is what I did when zeroing my No.4s thing is the new pills fly different and given the better BC's the only way to get you POA/POI is range time noting the site settings for each range its what I did and countless others have as well but I now have one load and DOPE for all my 303's but it was a longish road thank goodness its over for the time being...........:bow:

I was doing some mental arithmetic with rounded off numbers and I baffled myself. So I pulled out the calculator to get hard numbers.

So by my calculation, at the muzzle, my 174grn bullet is traveling 1,500MPH spinning at 160,000RPM.

Wow, out of my 1890 Lee Metford.

Seems to me that 25 yards aint a whole lot of distance for the bullet to get stabilised.

Not always an option I know, but 200 yards is best for sighting in for two hundred yards.
I never had much success with guesstimating at a shorter distance, but some have good luck with it.

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Originally Posted by englishman_ca

Not always an option I know, but 200 yards is best for sighting in for two hundred yards.

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I agree...then you can see what's actually happening.

The key holing is very much maybe from boat tail projectiles. Far more likely to be the barrel ID and bullet diameter are too far apart. Key holing is caused by undersized bullets or oversized barrels and sometimes too low velocity.
All No. 4 Lee-Enfields can have barrels that vary between .311" and .315". Over .315" the barrel is shot out. Issue is that commercial jacketed bullets are .311" or .312". Montana Bullets makes cast bullets up to .314".
So it's essential you slug the barrel before you do anything else. All the rest(targets, target distance, etc.) is irrelevant if the bullet isn't the right diameter.

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Originally Posted by Sunray

The key holing is very much maybe from boat tail projectiles. Far more likely to be the barrel ID and bullet diameter are too far apart. Key holing is caused by undersized bullets or oversized barrels and sometimes too low velocity.

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At this point I'm working off the assumption that it is because of the boat tail... I tried some flat base projectiles this last weekend and they shot without key holing.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

You know thinking of what your saying it maybe that the wood is excessively dry and has shrunk over the years as we know nought of their history for all we know about it is it could have lived in a barn in the Arizona desert or Death Valley.
So strip all of the wood off the metal give it RLO/Min Turps 50/50 till it cannot soak up another drop letting it dry between coats whilst your there you can inspect the draws and anything else you can't whilst assembled thats what I would do as the very first thing before faffing about with anything else......

Most of the guys here are registered gunsmiths and or armourers whether in service or retired they offer their advice free of charge and with integrity, like I say to my son when he becomes to smart being a smart ar$e "Don't poke the Leopard" in reference to a game warden on you-tube who did that with a long stick to try and get a Leopard out of a cage in the back of a land Rover in Africa.
Upshot of that was the Leopard jumped out bolted into the passengers side only thing is he left the window down half way cats being cats it joined him in the cab luckily it could not get its back legs in there but it caned that chap really badly, I saw the aftermath pics he was not healthy looking more like he had been through a shredder.............

Here's the clip its worth watching the whole thing so you understand what & why the cat attacked.
Untamed And Uncut Leopard Attack - YouTube

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The window was 3/4 up and then he wound it down again?
Just as well the leopard went for him and not that open topped cruiser full of tourists sitting a few feet away.
Not a lot of judgement on display there.
No.5 Rifle at the end though - perhaps if the Leopard had leapt into the tourist vehicle they could have loosed a few rounds in after him?
Choose your safari guides carefully.

a very interesting threadhttps://www.milsurps.com/

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Originally Posted by englishman_ca

......Seems to me that 25 yards aint a whole lot of distance for the bullet to get stabilised.

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The bullet is stabilized when it exits the muzzle or not. If it is stabilized, the distance to the target doesn't matter. Having a "wobble" is not the same as being unstabilized.

Recently I purchased a Mk 1/2. It has a beautiful bore with a nice leade, but slugs to what I think measures .304 min .316 max. I do not believe it will shoot worth a toot with commercial ammo and besides needs work in the draws irrespective of the bore.

I intend to make this thing shoot eventually, and am going to give a try at swaging 7.9 mm FMJ boat tail rounds to .316 if clearance in the throat will allow. I am surprised this has not been addressed?

Original .303 barrels are a bit of a puzzle, and reflect the engineering thinking of the times.

Bore diameter will (originally) be in the range .303" to .305 MAX.

However, groove diameter is a bit wilder. By the tolerances on ORIGINAL drawings, it can run out to .319" and STILL be in "spec".

In the tradition of the Minie Ball, the .303 BALL projectile has an OPEN base and was expected to "bump-up" upon the ignition of the Cordite charge to engage the rifling and (hopefully0 seal the bore. How this was supposed to happen with the early marks of ammo with their THICK, hard nickel jackets is anyone's guess.

Modern, commercial sporting "boat-tails" have a SOLID and often quite thick base. This CANNOT expand to any useful degree before propellant gas has started to leak around the boat-tail at HIGH temperature and pressure. The resultant "gas-cutting" in the Leade of the barrel and reduced velocity will cause problems.

Reduced velocity will automatically lead to reduced spin-rate and thus less stability.

Another thing is that the reduced bearing surface of boat-tailed bullets means that they precess (spiral) more and for longer after launch. Variations occur in boat-tail bullets because it takes an extra forming die stage to make that shape. The "eccentricity" may be literally microscopic, but when the bullet is spun to the revs you mentioned, it will become evident.

The Swiss started using a boat-tailed, Jacketed ball bullet in 1911 and that GP-11 is very fine ammo indeed. Their bore and groove specs are much "tighter" than a Lee Enfield. Thus, a "pre-loved" Lee Enfield is a different beast from a well-maintained Schmidt Rubin.

The gas-cutting at the Leade is irreversible and will render a barrel worthless in a couple of hundred rounds, especially if it has pre-existing washout from a lifetime diet of service-issue, Cordite fueled ammo.

Find a secret stash of Mk7 bullets or, failing that, the thinnest-jacketed, flat-based .312" bullet of around 165 to 180grains and play with it.