The M1 Carbine concept fully developed

The M1 Carbine was developed in 1941 as a PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) to replace the .45 pistol for non-combat troops who did not need to be armed with a full size rifle like the 1903 or M1 Garand. It was so successful, and so popular, it became a front line weapon. This popularity continued into Vietnam.

In World War II:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../mAsQY1A-1.jpg


In Korea and Vietnam:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../kL58GtX-1.jpg

This light weight, wood and steel carbine was so successful and popular into the 1960s, that Bill Ruger wanted a rifle like it in the new .223/5.56 caliber. Late in the 1960s, he hired L. James Sullivan, who was the primary design engineer for Armalite in their AR15 program, to develop the light weight 223 carbine he envisioned.

Rather than scale up the M1 carbine like the Gustafsen prototype, Sullivan decided to scale down the the tremendously reliable M14 instead. In 1972, the Ruger Mini-14 was introduced. It was so successful, in 1987, he introduced the Mini-30. Ironically, it was Bill Ruger himself who stonewalled further fine tuning of the rifles. Finally, in about 2005, after Ruger died, the vastly improved "580" series was introduced.

These rifles have filled a slot that previously only the M1 Carbine was available for: A light weight traditional wood and steel carbine for home and ranch defense, and even as a medium game hunting rifle. The M1 Carbine concept is still alive and well, as you can see. Besides my 6 digit Inland, 1950s rebuild, you can see my Rugers. My 583 blued Mini-14 is an M1 carbine with a "stiffy" and my 583 series Mini-30 is an M1 carbine on Viagra.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IqE3Zir-1.jpg

If the M1 Carbine had stayed in production as a commercial firearm after WW 2, I believe it would have eventually developed into a similar weapon on its own. Bill Ruger just picked up the ball and filled the void, continuing to develop the concept with a more effective and versatile cartridge.

One has to read all the way to p. 3 of War Baby! to see that carbine development began with the recommendation of the Chiefs of Infantry and Artillery. If anyone has a similar recommendation from the SOS chiefs, it would be interesting to see it. Further, the 1 Apr 42 T/O for an infantry battalion shows 292 carbines. I'm pretty sure there would be a consensus that an infantry battalion qualifies as a combat unit. How exactly did the carbine become successful or popular two months before production reached triple digits?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firstflabn

One has to read all the way to p. 3 of War Baby! to see that carbine development began with the recommendation of the Chiefs of Infantry and Artillery. If anyone has a similar recommendation from the SOS chiefs, it would be interesting to see it. Further, the 1 Apr 42 T/O for an infantry battalion shows 292 carbines. I'm pretty sure there would be a consensus that an infantry battalion qualifies as a combat unit. How exactly did the carbine become successful or popular two months before production reached triple digits?

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Good point!

The Mini 30 came about because Bill Ruger had boasted that his company was coming out with a modern version of the M14 in .308. He even took deposits on the rifles. Well turned out that they could not make a version of the M14 that would hold together or pass legal problems patient wise, no one seemed to know which it was back then. But rumors were that there were design problems that could be over come. So he had the Mini 14 updated to a .30 caliber round and it was a success but it was not an M14. This was not to fill a void but was to save face for him and his company.

Yep, you are right Bruce. It was the Ruger XGI. only a few were actually made. While Ruger does great investment casting, they needed a forged receiver for 7.62x51 Nato rounds. The Ruger was supposed to be a low cost alternative to the M1A, but a forged receiver and other parts made it almost as expensive. It was a decent rifle. I handled one when I was a Rangemaster for the PD and went to the Shot Show sometimes in the 1980s. IIRC, it used M14 magazines.... I also seem to remember it had an adjustable gas block.

I always liked the Winchester Lightweight rifle which looks like a larger M1 carbine. Very simple internal parts and the short stroke pistol appeared to work well with the 224 Winchester. It did have an aluminum alloy composition trigger guard and magazine.

total weight of loaded rifle was listed at 5.5 lbs

length of barrel was 20 inches and was flutedAttachment 92074Attachment 92073

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Originally Posted by RCS

I always liked the Winchester Lightweight rifle which looks like a larger M1 carbine. Very simple internal parts and the short stroke pistol appeared to work well with the 224 Winchester. It did have an aluminum alloy composition trigger guard and magazine.

total weight of loaded rifle was listed at 5.5 lbs

length of barrel was 20 inches and was flutedAttachment 92074Attachment 92073

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You could say that the Mini-14 is also an execution of the .224 WLMR concept. The lightweight barrel of the .224 WLMR caused the same accuracy issues after heating up, just at the light barrels on the pre-580 series Minis did.

Interesting 1972 article about the "New" Mini-14 by Jeff Cooper. He compared it to the M1 Carbine and thought of it as an improved M1 Carbine in ways.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../PmkgHjl-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../h8RH6Ap-1.jpg

The .224 Winchester Light Military Rifler:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../8beSMyE-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../cQLod6j-1.jpg

My homage to the .224 WLMR:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...uT1hjpg1-1.jpg

Gordon Ingram scaled up the M1 Carbine into his SAM rifles. SAM-1 5.56, SAM-2 7.62x39, and SAM-3 7.62x51. It truly is a scaled up M1 carbine.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../3Retkjr-1.jpg

Inside the Ingram SAM, at Gunlab - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

Also, a better look at the SAM-1

Gordam Ingram | GunLab

The Ruger XGI never made it past being announced at the SHOT Show. Ruger couldn't get it to work. Mind you, neither it, the Mini-30 nor 14 are even remotely like an M1 Carbine. None of 'em shoot anywhere near as well as any Carbine.

There is a great Youtube video of actually shooting Ruger XGI. It was found in a warehouse when they were moving.

The Rare Ruger XGI .308 Win Rifle - YouTube

I beg to differ. I have been shooting Minis almost as long as M1 Carbines (My first time shooting an M1 carbine was 1962 at 10, though I did not get one until about 1982, which is when I got my first Mini-14) . Rugers are as reliable (with Ruger factory magazines) as an M1 Carbine, and the current incarnations (post-580 series with their heavier, tapered hammer forged barrels) get 1.5 to 2 MOA in both Min-14 and Mini-30. I know because I have both. My Mini-14 shoots 1.6 MOA with MK262 MOD1 77s, and just under 2 MOA with M193 55s. My Mini-30 gets 2 MOA with Ulyanovsk 124 HP 8m3s, and close to 1 MOA with Nosler ballistic tip handloads. Early Ruger Mini-s had thin barrels like the 224 WLMR, and would string shots when hot. Current ones don't. 90% of aftermarket Ruger mags are junk. My Ruger factory 10s, 20s, and 30s feed 100%

Ruger Minis are victims of even more internet myths than even the M1 Carbine.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Ruger Minis are victims of even more internet myths than even the M1 Carbine.

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I have to agree. I had only a few, less that half dozen. I was able to stand flat footed and bang whatever gong I wanted to hit or group as well as I could do. The guns aren't a problem. I've known lots of owners and they don't have problems either. The guns don't fall apart or fail...not from anything I've heard or seen...except on the internet.

If you want mags that work, use Ruger twenties as far as I've seen...the fives are nice but not big enough, and the thirties are too scarce to discuss properly...for me.

The early year mini 14's have a problem with the rear sight too. It would not keep zero very well and would suddenly just shift. That was the main reason we rejected them for our department rifles and went with the Colt SP 1. AR 15's.

My first Mini-14 was a 180 series (bi-centennial model made in 1976), then I had a 181-series about 10 years later. I also had a Mini-30 Stainless 189 series in the mid-90s, another Mini-30 in about 2000. I never had a problem qualifying to use them as LEO trunk weapons, but we didn't do mag dumps enough to get them that hot. As far as sights go, the current ghost ring rear and post and wing M1 style front sight have the old flimsy rear and mile high unprotected front post beat by a mile.

All of my factory mags (5, 10 ,adn 20 for the Mini-30, and 5, 20, and 30 for the Mini-14 are 100%. They are built like tanks!

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

went with the Colt SP 1. AR 15's.

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I can't fault you there either.

Great thread! I had a Mini-30 once and I wish I had a picture of it. I stained the stock, had it Parkerized, put a M14-type front sight/flash hider on it, modified a M1 Carbine adjustable rear sight to fit it, all to make it really look like a true Mini-14. I even found a hand guard shaped like the brown composite M14 one but it was black - no problem, I found the perfect shade of red-brown paint and even 'aluminized' the underside with silver paint! The problems were, this was during the AWB and 30-round factory mags were unavailable and/or sky high although there were after-market mags - but they didn't work. I spent many hours tweaking mags to work using every trick in the book plus making up new ones. Then I learned that Ruger would not sell you a bolt - you had to send the rifle in or something like that. Then I got suspicious about whether it was a .310 bore or .308, and of course they would void the warranty if you shot imported ammo. So I put it on the table for a few shows trying to get even on it which amounted to $692. Everybody loved it but not enough to cough up even a sizeable portion of that amount. Finally, one guy came up to it and fell in love. He was carrying something in a Walmart bag that he wanted to trade, so I said sure, may as well see what it is. In the bag was an HK Model 4 pistol with all the calibers; .22, .25., .32 and .380, slides and all. So, I did the trade. Over a year or two I fixed up an E. German military briefcase into a complete kit for it with holster, manual, cleaning kit for all calibers, correct cleaning rod - everything set into the foam. At another show I got my asking price of $692 for it. Some deals just take longer than others.
I did not know about the '580' - it sounds like a rifle I would like in 7.62x39 and although I'm sure the factory mags are still high, at least they're available now. Plus I have lots of 'Golden Tiger' 7.62x39 around which is pretty accurate for imported steel case.

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

Great thread! I had a Mini-30 once and I wish I had a picture of it. I stained the stock, had it Parkerized, put a M14-type front sight/flash hider on it, modified a M1 Carbine adjustable rear sight to fit it, all to make it really look like a true Mini-14. I even found a hand guard shaped like the brown composite M14 one but it was black - no problem, I found the perfect shade of red-brown paint and even 'aluminized' the underside with silver paint! The problems were, this was during the AWB and 30-round factory mags were unavailable and/or sky high although there were after-market mags - but they didn't work. I spent many hours tweaking mags to work using every trick in the book plus making up new ones. Then I learned that Ruger would not sell you a bolt - you had to send the rifle in or something like that. Then I got suspicious about whether it was a .310 bore or .308, and of course they would void the warranty if you shot imported ammo. So I put it on the table for a few shows trying to get even on it which amounted to $692. Everybody loved it but not enough to cough up even a sizeable portion of that amount. Finally, one guy came up to it and fell in love. He was carrying something in a Walmart bag that he wanted to trade, so I said sure, may as well see what it is. In the bag was an HK Model 4 pistol with all the calibers; .22, .25., .32 and .380, slides and all. So, I did the trade. Over a year or two I fixed up an E. German military briefcase into a complete kit for it with holster, manual, cleaning kit for all calibers, correct cleaning rod - everything set into the foam. At another show I got my asking price of $692 for it. Some deals just take longer than others.
I did not know about the '580' - it sounds like a rifle I would like in 7.62x39 and although I'm sure the factory mags are still high, at least they're available now. Plus I have lots of 'Golden Tiger' 7.62x39 around which is pretty accurate for imported steel case.

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I think I actually like the Mini-30 more than the Mini-14! The factory 20s (which can be found for around $30) feed flawlessly. It was 99.4% reliable with steel case, until I spent it $45 on a heavier, longer stainless steel firing pin. Now I get 100% ignition and feeding with Russian ammo. The 8M3 124 HP Ulyanovsk fragtastic in NASTY, as are my Nosler ballistic tip 123s I reload. I have about a dozen of the Ruger factory 20s for the Mini-30, as well as some aftermarket 30s from back in the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by INLAND44

Great thread! I had a Mini-30 once and I wish I had a picture of it. I stained the stock, had it Parkerized, put a M14-type front sight/flash hider on it, modified a M1 Carbine adjustable rear sight to fit it, all to make it really look like a true Mini-14. I even found a hand guard shaped like the brown composite M14 one but it was black - no problem, I found the perfect shade of red-brown paint and even 'aluminized' the underside with silver paint! The problems were, this was during the AWB and 30-round factory mags were unavailable and/or sky high although there were after-market mags - but they didn't work. I spent many hours tweaking mags to work using every trick in the book plus making up new ones. Then I learned that Ruger would not sell you a bolt - you had to send the rifle in or something like that. Then I got suspicious about whether it was a .310 bore or .308, and of course they would void the warranty if you shot imported ammo. So I put it on the table for a few shows trying to get even on it which amounted to $692. Everybody loved it but not enough to cough up even a sizeable portion of that amount. Finally, one guy came up to it and fell in love. He was carrying something in a Walmart bag that he wanted to trade, so I said sure, may as well see what it is. In the bag was an HK Model 4 pistol with all the calibers; .22, .25., .32 and .380, slides and all. So, I did the trade. Over a year or two I fixed up an E. German military briefcase into a complete kit for it with holster, manual, cleaning kit for all calibers, correct cleaning rod - everything set into the foam. At another show I got my asking price of $692 for it. Some deals just take longer than others.
I did not know about the '580' - it sounds like a rifle I would like in 7.62x39 and although I'm sure the factory mags are still high, at least they're available now. Plus I have lots of 'Golden Tiger' 7.62x39 around which is pretty accurate for imported steel case.

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Haha! I would have traded for the HK also! Sweet little set up. Fired one that had .22 and .380. Almost bought it, but it was either that or groceries for the 5 kids, so you know which one won!

I first saw the Mini 14 in 1974 when they were released in New Zealand. The rifle had just been purchased by a NZ Forest Service deer culler and was brought to me, unfired, to rebarrel to .222 which was the NZFS issue ammunition at the time. I felt the standard barrel was too light and I made the new barrel a heavier profile. This involved machining a radius in the upper surface of the cocking slide to clear the barrel and boring out the gas block about .050" to suit the heavier barrel, making a scope base, and a trigger job. The end result was a very accurate set-up and gave years of good service. The Mini 14's are popular here but have a reputation for mediocre accuracy (usually about 3-4" groups at 100 metres) but adequate for bush hunting. AR's in all their various mutations are more popular, although many of the owners are guilty of the after-market 'improvement' syndrome, with many rifles looking like they are built from Lego!

I know a guy in London who is a target shooter and owns lots of rifles and shotguns and uses them at at his club. He has a Mini 14 in .223 which is scoped with good glass. he shoots 2" groups at 200m with this weapon. The French police use M14s.

The Mini's biggest problems are a lot of myth mixed with grains of truth.

i.e. Mini-14s (and 30s) are very inaccurate weapons. Early Minis had a pencil barrel, and after the heated up, they would vertically string. I never had a problem qualifying with the Mini, because we were not doing mag dumps! We did 10 rounds for qual, and it did fine. After about 20 rounds, if fired in a mag dump, they got less accurate, but still stayed under 4 MOA (which would be considered alright for the average AKM!). Both my 583 series minis (a 14 and a 30) do sub 2 MOA with iron sights and decent ammo, with the newer, heavier, tapered hammer forged barrels. Both will break clay pigeons on the ground at 100 yards, and both with ring the 200 yard, 12 " gong regularly. Early ones can have that accuracy with the installation of a barrel strut. I turned a pencil barrel 196 series into a 1.5 MOA shooter with a strut.

Mini-14s are unreliable: L. James Sullivan (the actual design engineer of Armalite who designed the AR15) scaled down the M1 Garand/M14 action for Bill Ruger to create the Mini-14. That is one of the most reliable battle rifle designs ever invented. The weapon is absolutely reliable IF you use Ruger factory magazines. The majority of aftermarket Mini magazines are junk , with the exception of John Masen, PMI, and USA Magazines (all three now defunct) and OE (Original Equipment Company - a division of Metalform), and KCI Korean Mini-30 mags. I have 100% reliability out of both my Mini-14 and Min-30 using Ruger factory magazines, and that's after about 600 rounds through each in the last two months.

Here is an evaluation of the two I posted on the Perfect Union: I now it is a bit off topic, but I think the members would be interested.

Took the boys out this morning and decided to burn some powder. I do not shoot paper past a 25 yard battle sight (of about POI about 1.5 inch above POA). With the Mini-14, that gives me dead on at 225/250, and no more that 3" above line of sight. The same sight picture gives the Mini-30 dead on at 200/225 yards.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../7Lu6j3k-1.jpg

Mini-14
Blue with factory Wood stock and ASI matching wood handguard. Front Wilson 1911 buffer, and rear Black Jack Mini-14 buffer. .050" ASI gas bushing. Shooting with factory ghost ring rear and post and wing front. Fired 100 rounds Federal/Lake City M193 white box from 5 different Ruger factory 20 rounders: two are 091494 LEO marked, and three are pre-1994. Factory magazine springs.

Got a 3 round clover leaf of about 1/2" diameter at 25 yards, and was breaking clay pigeons 100% at 100 yards, and the 12" gong at 200 yards. Brass went 10 to 15 feet at 2 o'clock. It is my house and ranch defensive carbine.

I have fired about 600 rounds total through the Mini-14 since I got it a couple months ago, with zero malfunctions using only Ruger factory magazines (5s, 10s, 20s, & 30s). I have used Lake City M193 55s, lake City M855 62s, and IMI Razor MK262 MOD1 77s.

Mini-30:
Stainless with factory Wood stock with Choate handguard. No front buffer, and rear Black Jack Mini-14 buffer. .10" factory gas bushing. Replacement firing pin trimmed to .041" protrusion for Russian. Shooting with factory ghost ring rear and post and wing front. Used Ruger factory 10 and 20 round magazines. Used 200 rounds of Ulyanovsk 124 HP 8M3 and 100 rounds of brass handloads with a Nosler .310" Varmagedeon 123 grain over 24.5 grains IMR 4198. Brass went 10-12 feet at 2 to 230 o'clock.

THe Nosler loads were freaking Awesome ! A cloverleaf for 3 rounds, just about as small as the Mini-14 got with M193. The 8M3 was about a 3/4" to 1" for groups at 25 yards. The Nosler groups busted clay pigeons at 100 yards 100% of the time, as did the Uly, but had a couple close misses with the Russian. Function was 100%. Out of 200 rounds of 8M3, there were no FTFs. No perforated primer on the brass cased Nosler reloads. .040/1" seems to be the sweet spot to ignite Russian primers 100% and not perforate brass cased ones..

I have now fired about the same amount (600 rounds total) from the Mini-30 since I got it last month, with only one FTF of a Russian cased round at about round 100 of the 600, which was BEFORE I fitted a longer firing pin. When I first got the Mini, I had a Wilson 1911 front buffer on it for the first 10 rounds, but it caused short strokes. I removed it, and it has cycled perfectly for the last 590 rounds. Magazines have all been Ruger factory (5s, 10s, 20s). Ammo has been Chinese lacquered steel case (40 rounds), Tulammo 122 FGMJs (100 rounds), Ulyanovsk 124 HP 8M3 (310 rounds), and my Nosler/IMR 4198 reloads (150 rounds).

Conclusion:
I am sure I could do better with a glass on either one, but these are strictly close up and personal iron sighted weapons. The Min-14 for the ranch and the Mini-30 for behind the 4x4 truck seat for the woods and mountain. I have a .308 PTR91 with a Redfield Revenge 3x9 BDC scope if I want to shoot past 100/200 yards at trolls, goblins, zombies, or raving insurrectionists.

They have demonstrated absolute reliability to me, and good solid sub-2 MOA accuracy which is good enough for my self defense purposes. I am NOT a sniper, nor am I fighting a war...(though the Mini would be a viable option for the later, if you were in a pinch!)

Just an update: I replaced the 583 series Mini-14 with a 186 Series made in 1996. It has a 1/7 twist barrel, unlike the 1/9 of the new 583. With that I can get the most from the 77 grain OTMs that maximize the 5.56 potential. As you can see, I replaced the original ramp front sight with the M1 Carbine style post and wing sight from a new 583. This is my M1 with a stiffy!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../4tIGBU3-1.jpg

Pretty slick, but I've got a couple questions: What year did they start putting the ventilated handguard on these, and why does the front sight sit so far back from the muzzle? I had a Mini-Thirty made in '02 and the front sight was located farther forward. - Bob

They stopped wood handguards in 1983 or 1984. Mine was made in 1996. I got a replacement wood handguard from Accuracy Systems. for $69. The front sight is from a 583, and they have the groove in the top of the barrel for the sight roll pin closer to the muzzle. This one had the ramp sight, which was set back from the muzzle farther, because the ramp sight unit is longer. I used the same grove, so the sight is back father, All Mini-14 barrels (except the tactical) are 9/16" (562"), so the modern sight slides right on. The very end of the barrel is just a tad over .5", so I may turn it down and do a 1/2x28 thread job for a muzzle brake. Mini-14s from 1973 to 1986 were 1/10" twist, then until 1997 were 1/7 twist like the Colt Sporter II, then in 1997 shifted to 1/9 (also like Colt did about then.).

I wanted a 1/7 twist Mini-14 for a long time so I could shoot my MK262 MOD1 to best effect. I have an Accustrut, but it adds over half a pound to the Mini. As shown the Mini weighs 6 pounds, 15 ounces. For my shooting under 100 yards, I don't need the Accustrut. I leaned off the back deck, and at about 100 yards hit a softball sized rock with one shot of the 77 grain OTM 5.56 loads...Good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I leaned off the back deck, and at about 100 yards hit a softball sized rock with one shot of the 77 grain OTM 5.56 loads...Good enough for me.

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We've had discussions here about their inaccuracy but I found at 200 I could stand and bang the gong all I wanted...compared to others that I couldn't.

Jim, that is so true. I could easily hit our 200 yard gong with either the Mini-14 or Mini-30 with iron sights and red dot. I was never abe to do it with ANY AK pattern rifle, even a Saiga. Heck, I could even do it with the Inland M1 carbine!

They always had the smack of a solid hit too...I liked them.

I took the Mini to the indoor 25 yard range just to check zero. Dailed it in pretty well, and called it good. Today was a break in the week of blessed rain in Nor Cal, so I decided to fine tune at the 25 & 100 yard outdoor range. I can never get a good sight in with the indoor lighting and lead sled at the indoor.

First up was the MK262 MOD1 (IMI Razor). It required one click to the left. Nice little cluster on an M1 Carbine 25 yard target. Then I tried my clone load: 77 grain Custom Competition Nosler over 25.2 grains BLC(2) WITH A CCI #41 primer in .223 federal cases. Bingo. Correctly overlaid the same little group as the MK262 MOD1.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../qTCoSEq-1.jpg

Then I switched to 100 yards, shooting clay pigeons and pop cans. alternating MK262 and Clone loads every other shot. Bingo again! set the pop can or clay pigeon on the front sight with a 6 o'clock hold, and it was a solid hit on both pigeons and cans. (I never do paper with iron sights at 100 or more, as my eyes don't seem to do well. Hitting a pop can at 100 with iron sights would be a solid hit on a Goblin sized target at 200 or more!) The clay pigeon or can is instant gratification. Our 200 yard is closed because the "Friends of the Chipmunks " got an injunction against us. (We can't use steel targets anymore, nor shoot past 100 yards).

Then I switched to M855 Lake City 62 grainers. same hits at 100 as the 77s. On a whim, I did some 55 grain M193 Lake City (which was lousy in the indoor range) and was totally surprised. I was still hit cans and stuff at 100 yards. Hmmmm. Looks like this little baby likes everything. Did about 200 rounds again, and did not notice any problems. I was hitting cans at the end as well as the beginning.

Then I pulled out the PCC9 with Glock mag adapter. I had a problem with the red dot so I switched back to irons. My load of choice for it is the Federal 9BPLE +P+ Illinois State Police load...about 1550 fps from the PCC9. After a minor sight adjustment, I was actually hitting pop cans at 100 yards with iron sights. At 25 yards I was hitting pieces of clay pigeons.

A great day at the range!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../AaRICHy-1.jpg

I picked up a PC Carbine a couple days ago and just ordered some Glock 15 rd mags for it. Glad to know it's possible to hit stuff with one! - Bob

The PCC9 seems to do best with hot ammo at 75-100 yards. I was shooting cans with the 115 +P+ Federal. Every shot was a hit, or so close the can moved or rolled off the berm. Standard velocity was that good at 25 to 75, but didn't cut it for 100.

The 186 Mini-14 was an absolute joy to shoot! The front and rear buffers tamed the snap, the 583 M1 style post and wing front sight gave a consistent sight picture, and the in bolt, M1 Carbine style ejector dumped the brass politely in a 2 ft diameter pile at 1-2 o'clock, about 8 feet away. If I took my time, it hit what I aimed at.

I do have to admit I had one of my better range days I have had in the last couple years! I don't always shoot that well, LOL. It was an optimal day for shooting: clear sunny skies, no wind, no one next to me shooting a 7mm Mag, and I didn't have too much coffee before I went.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

the PCC9

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Always wanted one of those or the one in .40. They're outrageously expensive around here though.

I have heard rumbles that they may offer in 40 if the 9mm sales keep up. They are selling well down here, and affordable. I have seen them as low as $569 in Big 5 and other chain store, though in small local gunshops the go for $625. Mini-14/30 run almost $1000 in Commiefornia.

I've seen them as low as $482

Ruger PC CARBINE 9MM 16.12 TD TB/FLUTED 17RD $482.00

Ruger PC Carbine Takedown 9mm 16in 17rd Black

ruger 9mm carbine For Sale - Buy ruger 9mm carbine Online at GunBroker.com

Here in the PNW, prices for the PC Carbine have settled at around $450 - $500. Not sure if they'll continue to drop - probably will now that I've got one! I'd been on the fence since the spring - they're a bit on the ugly side, and a tad heavy - but seems well made and has some nice features. Another plus is that 9mm Blazer-Brass is now down to around 13 cents/round. That ammo should work OK for my plinking at 20-30 yards. - Bob

As Bill and Bob well know, everything in Commiefornia costs more when it comes to almost everything, especially firearms!

WHICH IS ONE REASON I AM MOVING TO OREGON NEXT SPRING! (like Jim and Bill did) We have a house in the Coos Bay area that will become our official home. We will have a large RV at my sisters property in Grass Valley, CA where we will stay when we come down a month at a time to see grandkids....

Here's a link to GB prices for the "NY/CA Compliant" version:

https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search...019101&Sort=13

For the extra money, you get a 10rd. Mag and "sans" barrel threads. :lol: - Bob

problem is by the time you pay $35 shipping, $26 DROS fee, 9% sales tax of $54, and a FFL fee of $50, its $175 more than Gun broker. I got mine for $600 out the door (including tax and DROS and about $530 for the gun), because the LGS owner is a friend.

OTD price in Portland is about $470, but at stores near me, closer to $510. It would've been the same or higher "on-line" for me, too. - Bob

OK, As much as I love the thought of a Tactical Mini-14 (though with a brake instead of a flash hider because I am still in Commiefornia), my dream Mini-14 was the standard 186 series I bought. With its 1/7 twist barrel, it maximizes the Mini's potential with the 77 grain OTMBT MK262 MOD1 ammo so poplar with Spec Ops in the sandbox. The tactical only has a 1/9 twist. the 77s do OK to 100, but start to loose it at 200 with the 1/9 twist,

The front portion of the Mini-14 barrel is about .510", just a tad too large to thread 1/2x28 without turning it down. The rest of the barrel in front of the barrel in front of the sight is 9/16". I thought of threading it 9/16x24, but really couldn't find a satisfactory brake or flash hider.

With that in mind, I carefully used a file to file down about .010" off the muzzle end, and pushed the ridge back about an 1/16" while I was at it. Then, using a TAT and die from CNC Warrior, I threaded the front 3/8" 1/2x28.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../doCJ8I9-1.jpg

I have a Wilson Combat Comp brake for Commiefornia, and a Palmetto A2 flash hider for free America. Because I could not use crush washer because of the short threaded part, I drilled and tapped the bottom of each 6x32, and installed a 6/32 set screw, engaging a matching dimple in the barrel.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ssKQjlV-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../pLi3h2o-1.jpg

I decided I wanted more thread. I took off the brake, and used a small clamp as a collar to keep the file or grinder from going too far up the barrel. I made an area wide enough to give slightly more than 1/2" threaded area, instead of the 1/4" I had. The clamp is a trick I used for cutting a straight line around Saiga barrel shrouds.

I clamped it on, and started with a flat file to start reducing from .562" to .5". You do half the barrel (the clamp screw assembly prevents you from doing all the way around), then rotate the clamp 180 degrees and do the other side. After starting with the flat file, I transition to a round Dremel stone, then switched to a sanding drum with a 1/2" drum. I used a 1/2" shaft collar as a gauge. The hose clamp gave me a perfect symmetrical shoulder.

One it was 1/2". I resumed threading. I ended up with slightly more than 1/2" as desired. No worry now about the 50,000 PSI shock wave pushing the muzzle brake off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

Here in the PNW, prices for the PC Carbine have settled at around $450 - $500. Not sure if they'll continue to drop - probably will now that I've got one! I'd been on the fence since the spring - they're a bit on the ugly side, and a tad heavy - but seems well made and has some nice features. Another plus is that 9mm Blazer-Brass is now down to around 13 cents/round. That ammo should work OK for my plinking at 20-30 yards. - Bob

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To get that ammo price you do have to send in for a $20 rebate, (cost of a stamp) but it's a heck of a deal. Free shipping over $25 which in this case the 500 round pack is $64.99 so not an issue.

Blazer Brass 9mm Luger 115-Grain Centerfire Pistol Ammunition Black Pack - $84.99 (64.99 after $20 MIR) (Free S/H over $25) | gun.deals

Too bad they don't have free shipping on their 45acp Blazer Brass at $12.99 a box.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

Too bad they don't have free shipping on their 45acp Blazer Brass at $12.99 a box.

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Jim, the local stores here had the 45 ACP 300rd packs, too. It was $79.97, so after the rebate (did it on-line) it will figure out to a hair under 20 cents per round - or about $10 a box. Probably the neatest deal was the $20 rebate applied to the 1600 round packs of Federal 22LR 36g HP's. Those are individually boxed and it works out to something under 94 cents each! - Bob

Picture of hose clamp in place to use as a guide. I actually ended up with a tad over 5/16" and a tad less than 1/2" threaded for the flash hider or brake.

1) start with flat file
2) smooth out with Dremel stone
3) Use emory sanding wheel to finish.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../JRroj0Q-1.jpg

Finished project:

Commiefornia legal with barrel threaded 1/2"x28 and a Wilson Combat Comp muzzle brake and my LEO marked 20 rounders from when I carried a Mini-14 as an LEO trunk weapon in the 80s and 90s.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../aicZXiH-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../tHTVm6B-1.jpg

My Oregon legal Mini-14 (pictures taken at daughter's in Medford Oregon so the California trolls don't growl). This is how it will be after I move to my house in Coos Bay area in the spring. Early Choate folding stock, and A2 flash hider. Magazine in the weapon is an old USA Magazines 40 rounder I kept in my Minis in the patrol car trunk.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../QthJUQf-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../JpGWtjc-1.jpg

Glad to see my mini's discussed. They put an AR in my hands in 69 and I hated it then hate them now so when it was time for a 223 I went with the mini. My first is now tac-ed out with ATI strike force stock system with a UTG scope mount with a ART III scope on it sighted in at 100 and with 55 gr handloads I do 1.5 OA with my old tired eyes. Now matter what I've tried it throws brass everywhere from 1 o'clock to 9 or 10. My second is stock out of the box and we bounce cans all over the place at 50 yards and it throws brass at 2 o'clock all day long. I have had great luck with Tapco mags and also Thermold and if that rear sight is to dainty to suit your tastes try Tec-sights.They make a fine G.I. aperture sight that works gtrat and is adjustable for windage and elevation. Just my two cents.

My take on AR's. I've had many people over the years say they were going to convert me and I use their rifle to out shoot them and hand it back and I use the line from Quigly when he tells the dieing rancher about handguns. "I said I never had much use for them didn't say I didn't know how to use them."

This thread has drifted away from our forum's carbine topic. Though interesting, I feel it has run it's course and it's time to be closed.