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Hi everyone,
So i just bought a 91/24 carcano and i did a little research to identify the rifle and came accross a few post that said some barrel were cut at the front and some at the rear, then sleeved to match the chamber size.
How can i tell if it was cut down to the front or the rear? I dont have any other carcano to compare and could not find any picture that show the difference.
Thanks
Ced
I never heard that. Cutting the barrel at the breech end wouldn't make a lot of sense as they need that portion to screw into the receiver. They did resleeve barrels but all the cuts were from the breech end in. Again, wouldn't involve shortening from the breech end. Not all 91/24's were sleeved. Most were not and sufferred accuracy issues because of it.
Exactly the first had terrible accuracy because they chopped off the final and most pronounced part of the rifling. After they saw that they cutted from the breach side and put on a sleeve to fit in the receivers. That is why some 91/24 shoot fine and some could not hit the side of a barn. Just google 91/24 accuracy as there is many forum that speak of breach end cutting
My main question is How does a breach end cutted barrel look? I never saw another carcano exept mine so i can't really tell and could not find any pic
Edit(found this on this forum):
The first 91/24s were made by Terni in 1925, simply by cutting off the front end of the M91 barrel to shorten it. The new muzzle end had to be turned down to accept the foresight ring, and this was also secured by a grub screw. However, since the M91 Carcano barrel had a progressive twist, this meant that the faster portion of the rifling had been lost. The result was very poor ballistic performance, the twist at the cut-down muzzle being quite simply too slow. Later M91/24s were made by cutting of the back end of the barrel and inserting the barrel into a sleeve section that provided the proper chamber and diameter to fit the action body.
Again, I doubt they ever cut them from the breech end. Italy has a long history of sleeving barrels and cutting the breech out of one would be completely opposite of their standard proceedure which was to sleeve it from the breech end. I'll check my books when I get a chance. Basically impossible to do what was described without seriously increasing the outer diameter of the barrel, plus you're removing the barrel threads at the same time.
They were sleeving Vetterlis during WWI and I expect they were sleeving the 91's at about the same time. The TS models came after both those.
Alright let me know what you find
Checked my two primary sources.
91/24's have two basic conversion methods. The first and the rarest was to shorten and re-sleeve the barrels. While no hard numbers are available, it is estimated that less than 200 were converted in this way as it was considered too expensive and labor intensive. These were the first conversions.
The second is to simply cut the worn end off the barrel. Now this method has two sub-types. The first is to have simply shortened the barrel by cutting off the front portion. The second is to first turn down the breech end one thread and rechamber it and then shorten the barrel by cutting off the front portion. This second method is probably where the confusion of shortening them from the rear comes from. It is only one thread. These rifles will have a star stamped onto the breech end of the barrel.
In all three instances the barrels are turned down so the front sights can be installed and the original bayonets will still fit. There may be two different points to the turning down also, just in front of the rear sight, and just to the rear of the front sight. Not exactly clear on this but if turned down to the rear sight, they had to install a spacer at the front of the modified stock so it would contact the barrel.
So the only rifles of this particular type that should not have accuracy issues are the less than 200 which had the sleeves inserted. All others would be rather hit or miss, literally speaking.
By turn down you mean? Im still trying to understand the process and im not english native so forgive me if my question is stupid.
Mine should have a turn down barrel since i have the star but i did not remember seeing any kind of spacer or whatsoever on the stock piece which would mean it would have been turn down at the front sight
At the breech end, they would pull the barrel off the receiver and the heavy portion would be turned down on a lathe so it could be re-screwed back into the receiver one thread further. They don't remove all the threads, just make is so it can go into the receiver a bit further. They would also remove the one thread and rechamber the bore. They did these with rifles with excessive corrosion in the breech. These have the star so this is what was done to yours.
If the front sight ring is flush with the barrel behind it but not the small portion of the barrel in front of it, it was only turned down so the front sight could be installed. If the front sight ring is wider both front and back, the barrel was turned down to the front of the rear sight. If that is the case and there is no spacer in the stock at the front end, it may be a new production stock. Most used the recycled stocks from the long rifles but if the stock was bad, they made a new one for it and the new ones were not cut as deep so they fit the turned down barrels.
Turned down - I'll try to explain this better. At the breech end, the turning down or shortening of the breech end is done perpendicular to the length of the barrel, the edge of the barrel, and the edge of the heavy portion of the barrel that touches the receiver ring are cut to allow it to go into the receiver one thread. At the front portion of the barrel, it means making the barrel thinner parallel to the length of the barrel.
Still not sure i understood but on mine front sight barrel band sits higher than the barrel on both side. That would mean it was turned down a the front of the rear sight. Im surprised the stock is a newly made, it is really badly beat up. Of all my rifle its the worst stock piece, probably it was issued and served somewhere. Thanks for your time, really appericated that you took time to explain
Ced
Look where the barrel and recover join than look ahead towards the rear sight about a inch you can see that the new barrel is threaded into the old barrel also if you take the action off the stock you will see a small screw where the new barrel is screwed into the machined off old barrel on the bottom side
if this has been done than it's been re chambered to 6.5 x 54 M.S.
It's a safe re configuration I have one with a double set trigger and a lovely custom off set stock.
I'm looking for a parts Carcano barred action with the double set triggers or the total set trigger assemble with the sear as mine has been damaged by someone fooling with it. I do have all the parts to put it back as a single trigger .
Hope this help you.
Best Regards.
Fred
You have to remember this stock was a new replacement in 1928, it's now 90 years old and went through WWII at a minimum and possibly a few other campaigns in the meantime. Sounds like your rifle was indeed turned down all the way to the front of the rear sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ced1942
Im not complaining haha its nice to have some safequeen but some old beat up rifle is awesome too. Gotta imagine what it went trought and still end up in my hand. Is there any info on how barrel modification affected accuracy? Does a turned down barrel should perform better than a simply cutted one? Otherwise ill try it this weekend and hope i can at least hit something without the bullet keyholing aroundQuote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Ced
Since turning down the barrel only effects the outside and not the bore, no change between the two types. I wish you the best of luck but accuracy will most likely be bad. Especially if you are using Privi ammunition as they bullets are undersized.
Accuracy is bad with these because they cut away the portion of the barrel needed to stabilize the bullets. You might get lucky and have one that still shoots well. Let us know.
well i went to shoot it today, on 12 shot at 50-60yards 8 landed on a 4x6 paper, so mutch for getting a grouping lol. sight are really bad too i had to aim 2-3 feet under the target to get the bullet to simply land around the paper. the bullet i had were .264 inch but i plan to reload and put some .268 trought it and see if it improve. its a shame it does not shoot better as the rifle work really well other than the crappy accuracy. Can't wait to see if i can at least hit the paper sheet each time with bigger bullet cause i really like the rifle other than that. i guess ill have to find a 91/28 if i can't get decent accuracy from this one lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
You need to look up "progressive twist". Cutting the muzzle off ruins the accuracy. Plain and simple.
I've read that the 91/24s were rebored? If they have an astric near the serial number they have been over bored?
Steve
6.5 x 54 MS conversions were done for the commercial market. These conversions were not done by Italy. I have heard they are nice rifles but have never seen one.
The 91/24 terni I just got was cut just up from the rear sight and the front portion was shortened and re-attached to the rear, this manner kept the gain twist of the rifle and original rear barrel end, possibly the front end as well. The pics I post show the step down in the barrel just forward of the rear sight, this is where the rear barrel was cut and the forward section was reapplied. I would imagine that both ends where threaded and then screwed together. This way the twist gain was still in the barrel. It is stamped 1915 terni with a terni restamp of 1928 when it was converted to a carbine.
I also noticed that on this particular rifle the stock must have been replaced and renumbered to match. The new number is carved into the stock. Also it has 4 silver tacks in the stock and I can see were several others have been removed or fell out.
The rifles were, indeed, fitted with a complex insert. Perhaps 250,000 rifles converted after WWI. I understand the Brits used the same system to re-condition MG barrels. After WWI Italy was in desperate financial straits. No money for anything and the war saw almost all of the Italian fishing fleet destroyed. Food became a real issue and no money to buy staples. So fitting inserts into rifles made sense at the time. I saw a very well done You Tube video on this topic and it explained it all.
Many years ago, when these carbines were wry cheap, a lot of people bought them not knowing that the gain twist forward end of the barrel was cut off to make the carbine. The long 160 gr bullets would not stabilize on shooting. Some experienced shooters discovered that they could get the accuracy back with the remaining long twist by loading much lighter 6.5 bullets. I never tried it, as I didn’t own one. But that’s the story I heard from some folks that seemed very versed in rifle shooting and accuracy.