Target Shooting (Advice wanted)

G'day there. It seems I may know how to strip and clean my rifles and service them well enough but I am a terrible shot, and that is not ideal considering I would like to do more target shooting in the future (Mostly in military classes), and I know there are some good shooters in here with plenty to say so I am wondering if anyone has any tips or books or sites or videos or etc etc about being a more competent shooter, both on the range and in the bush (But mostly on the range).

I'm not that old but I already have bad habits like flinching and not declaring targets which are hard to break as it stands. Anyway, I'm up for criticism and advice if anyone wants to lend their experience and two cents worth into it. Cheers.

1. Join a shooting club
2. Find out who are the good rifle shooters.
3. Ask their advice.
4. Follow their advice.
5. Practice.
6. Start with 2 again.
7. Repeat until they come to you for advice.

My advice follows the above with a few exceptions get to know people there in the club you will usually spot the good shooters by their consistent good scores though anyone can have off days they are normally quiet types who go about the business and usually just say they were lucky getting a good score but to do it week in week out takes skill at arms.
We have an 80 y/o who shoots optical but also service rifle and more often than not is up the front of the pack, when plied for information on his scores he just says one of two things; "I had a forgiving rifle today." or "I had forgiving ammunition today." and thats it.
Don't shoot yourself in the foot once you get on board and they are helping by saying well I read this and that what works for some may not work for everybody you have to learn from them and if need be modify it to suit your style.
Also every club has one a yap yap who not only built the Ark but rescued Helen of Troy with one arm, they just bluff their way around mesmerizing the neophytes with their boundless theories on why your not getting good scores, proper tuition involves discipline and understanding the fundamentals of what makes up a good shooter and cultivating it within the shooter everything has to be consistent & repeatable in your actions.
Books whilst they can give you the basics in the end its what you gain from practical shooting that will move you along if you have a bad shot understand why it was bad and move on from it I just say well they are all in the black just one decided he did not want to be with the group!

The flinch is a harder one to get rid of only shooting and practicing will you over come this thing I still struggle with it at times after being belted around by hard kickers like the 444 Marlin I owned along with shooting my mates 300 & 460 Weatherby Magnums, the trigger break when the sight picture is correct should be a complete surprise to you

I've found holding the gun sideways and sort of throwing the bullets at the target with each shot has greatly improved my accuracy and street credentials. Before I just sprayed and prayed and just wound up hitting everything but the target. :madsmile:

For the flinching, I had a great improvement after picking up handguns again.
That really forces you to have a perfect trigger pull. Once you get it there, on the rifle it should be easy peasy.
Just my experience.

Get a .22 cal. rifle that is similar to your high power rifle. Shoot it frequently to cure your flinching habit. Shoot in .22 rifle matches.

There were some good suggestions above.
Start with a good 22 rifle with aperture sights. One with a good trigger would also be nice.

Use good ammo that is accurate in the rifle you will use. Using cheap ammo is satisfying to your wallet, but frustrating to your efforts to improve. It doesn't have to be Eley 10X, but here, some of the affordable ammo that shoots well is Wolf Match Target, CCI Standard Velocity, and a few others. Not sure what is available in Oz, but ask the ask the rimfire target shooters at your local club for recommendations.

Blacken the front sight so there is no glare reflecting off of it. Acetylene smoke will produced the flatest black possible. The are commercial sight smokers on the market, or you can use an antique miners carbide lamp. After you blacken it, take an ordinary #2 pencil and draw a line diagonally across the face of the front sight blade. This line will be visible when you look through the sights if you are focusing on the front sight. If you are looking at the target, the line will not be detectable.

When looking through the sights, focus your vision sharply on the front site. This is something new shooters have difficulty with as the target is what they are shooting at, and it seems natural to focus on it. This takes a bit of doing until you have trained yourself to pull back your focus to the front sight. If there is a speck of dust on the front sight you should be able to see it. That's how sharp your focus should be.

You will need to practice two different trigger techniques.
For shooting from a supported position, place the tip of your finger on the trigger. Do not use the first joint. Use the part of your finger where the center of the circular part of your finger print is. When your sights are aligned properly, gradually increase the pressure while maintaining sight alignment until the rifle fires. You want the moment the rifle fires to be a surprise to you. Yes, you know it's going to fire, but the exact moment it does should be unknown. If you do it right, you can't flinch because you don't know when to flinch.

For standing, do the same as for supported, with one exception. Because you can't hold the rifle perfectly still, you can't use the gradual method of pressing the trigger. The rifle will drift off center right when it fires. Instead, learn the trigger to be able to apply about half the necessary pressure needed to fire the rifle. After establishing your Natural Point of Aim, (NPA) you will notice that the rifle is impossible to hold perfectly still, but it will occasionally "hover" for just a moment in the center of the target. When you see this happen, you have to instantly press the trigger very quickly before the sight drifts away from center. This takes a lot of practice, and success will not be instant, but you will gradually improve.

Now all of this is a brief overview. If you want to know more, like how to find your NPA, we can get into that too.
If you have a local club, inquire if they hold any shooting clinics. This is where coaches provide individual instruction on the range and you get to apply the lesson learned right then and there.

Thanks for the detailed advice and experience everyone. Joining a shooting club is a tad hard for me since I'm out a ways from a range and if I have to drive there at night then I'll probably nail at least one roo. However, I have all the room on the farm I work on to practice (Which is why I was hoping for advice about things that I can do on my own), but even then I could probably find some good shooters who would be willing to help me out; Next best I reckon.

My flinch seems to occur when I pick up anything bigger than a .22 or .22 Hornet. I can bang away all day on a .22 and never flinch but that is not impressive. However, for many years a .22 has just been a crow gun to me which all it has to do is hit a crow at 50 yards and thats it, I've never used one simply to push for as much accuracy as I can and it is something I will try now that it has been mentioned.

No4MkIT, I know of the trick with blackening front sights but I did not know that they should be the point of focus over the target, but I suppose focusing on the sights more could also take away the stress of "This is the target and I have to hit it" of being fixated on it. Also I used to shoot with the 'surprise' technique' as you have mentioned but I thought it was always just me being unexperienced so I tried other things that never worked, hence I am asking here haha. Yeah standing shooting I am half decent at but I never thought much about such as thing as Natural Point of Aim but it makes a lot of sense (Natural things and concepts like this are exactly what I was after).

Before this my knowledge of accurate shooting was limited to: "Do every shot the same way every time" which was great unless I was up the paddock and had to adapt to a new position. You guys have given me some basics and concepts so I guess I have to go out and practice them now, and meet shooters who don't mind sharing their secrets haha. Anymore advice is also welcome. Thanks everyone.

You have received some good advice, and will doubtless receive more. I would like to add my opinion that. for target shooting, the most important single aspect is consistency. A good group means hitting almost in the same point every time. Apart from sheer flukes, that will only be achieved by the best possible consistency in all aspects.

So if you get the best results by standing on your head while whistling "Waltzing Matilda" backwards, then do that every time. There are, however, better ways of improving your grouping.

RSM Kilpatrick, the stern but patient gentleman who spent some time teaching me how to shoot well, put it very succinctly:

"If ye canna group ye canna shoot!"

I don't know if they still make Scottish RSMs like that anymore. I hope so. He taught me to shoot practice groups without checking the target in between - for the good reason that if you do, it is easy to fall into the trap of "chasing the zero" by fiddling endlessly with the sights and unconsciously correcting "last shot was a trifle low, so I'd better hold up a smidgeon for the next shot - oops now it's over the black..."

- ammo, of course! Flinching is hard to "unlearn" with full-bore rifles. Since the vast majority of target shoots are at 300m or less, it is an unnecessary stress on your rifle and your body to use loads that were intended for military rifles up to 2000 yards. As a target-shooting beginner, look for the mildest safe load for your rifle.

- position - when prone with legs spread, legs crossed, one knee forwards ... do not mix!

- hold - stock pulled back hard into shoulder, or just firmly, or slightly loose, sling just above elbow, or high up ... do not mix!

- light (for instance, on a day with frequent clouds crossing the sun, either take every shot in full sunlight, or every shot while a cloud is passing over (may be easier on the eyes for a long sequence) but do not mix them!

- type of aim: 6 o'clock hold (very light sensitive) central...

- focus on foresight (note, if you aim for too long, the vision tends to get "captured" by the target), not sometimes foresight, sometimes target...

- breathing - keep regular, release trigger always at the same point in breathing cycle.

- allow sufficient recovery time between shots. Do not stare at the target. Close your eyes for at least 10 secs. This aids consistent breathing and reduces eye strain.

- trigger release. I know it is difficult to achieve that "surprise" effect of a shot release with a full-bore rifle. But the nearer you can get, the better.

The aim is to acquire a set of habits that aid shooting in a steady rhythm. The best target I ever shot as a cadet was made in an almost Zen-like trance. In fact, I recommend reading about Japanes Zen archery as a pointer to the state of body and mind that will also help you to achieve good grouping.

And when the grouping is good enough - then you can adjust the sights to taste!

Join a shooting club.

Attend club shoots regularly, they are usually a monthly affair. Make an outing of it, include your family to attend to whatever they want to attend to while you are shooting. Or every two months.

Why?

When you practice on your own you never discover your bad habits, you keep on practicing them, eg your flinch that you can't get rid of. I'll bet some time with knowledgeable persons at the monthly club will match cure you of the flinch forever.

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Originally Posted by nijalninja

No4MkIT, I know of the trick with blackening front sights but I did not know that they should be the point of focus over the target, but I suppose focusing on the sights more could also take away the stress of "This is the target and I have to hit it" of being fixated on it. Also I used to shoot with the 'surprise' technique' as you have mentioned but I thought it was always just me being unexperienced so I tried other things that never worked, hence I am asking here haha. Yeah standing shooting I am half decent at but I never thought much about such as thing as Natural Point of Aim but it makes a lot of sense (Natural things and concepts like this are exactly what I was after).

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Not focusing on the front sight is the root of your difficulties. Black the sights and draw the pencil mark thereon, and give it a go. I think you will see an immediate improvement. The pencil mark helps you to remember to pull your focus back. If you see the pencil mark, you are good to go, if you can't see it, that's a reminder to focus hard on the front sight.
Please report back on your results when you have had a chance to apply this. Try not to giggle, it's unbecoming of a true marksman. :p

Natural Point of Aim is a lesson in itself. When you have absorbed the front sight technique and are ready, ask, and ye shall receive.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

He taught me to shoot practice groups without checking the target in between - for the good reason that if you do, it is easy to fall into the trap of "chasing the zero" by fiddling endlessly with the sights and unconsciously correcting "last shot was a trifle low, so I'd better hold up a smidgeon for the next shot - oops now it's over the black..."

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I love this tip! Didn’t even realize that was a problem of my own until I saw it in writing. Thanks!
I’ll have to give it a go during my next range trip.

rcathey, it really is a serious suggestion. The reasoning is thus:

Let us suppose you have a perfectly set-up rifle, ammo etc. And the sights perfectly centered on the target. Now suppose the random deviation of your shots is +/- 1 MOA (which would be very good for a military rifle), which would mean just about all shots in or touching the 10 on the usual ISSF pistol target (8" black) at 100 metres. This spread includes your PWF deviation (and if that is less than 1 MOA your are a superb shot!).

Now a shot lands down on the 9/10 borderline at 6 o'clock. It's 1 MOA down from the center. No error at all, just the inevitable variation. If you correct, i. e. alter the sights or hold the rifle 1 MOA higher, and the next shot is one that would have been 1 MOA above the otherwise perfectly centered group, but still on the 9/10 border, then, because of the unneccessary correction, it will actually be 2 MOA high. In other words out on the 8/9 border.

So now you are really worried. And have spoilt a potentially excellent target. That alone will upset you for the rest of the competition. The number of 99s I shot with my No.8 would have papered a good-sized living room wall. But smallbore competitions demanded a 100 to be competitive, the placing being decided by the number of 10Xs.

When shooting a competition target, RSM Kilpatrick would only say "OK" after each shot, if it was a 10. He refused to say "on the edge at 9 o'clock" or "a trifle high" anything like that - in order not to provoke that previously mentioned unconscious correction.

Why did he simply say "OK" with no further indication of position?
Because we both knew that the rifle etc was perfectly centered, and if the shot was anything but a 10X that was simply a statistical deviation combined with PWF.

Patrick,
Oh yes, I definitely understand the utility of the technique after first reading your suggestion. Hope I didn't come off as a smarta$$.
It's one of those things that makes perfect sense as soon as someone says it but I just never thought of it on my own.
I have definitely been correcting myself as you describe above and I will definitely STOP it.
Just focus on aiming for the same spot and let the bullets land where they may.
Genius, really. Thanks again!

:bash:This is to back up Patrick I shot these groups in Collie yesterday with my APRS .308 Rem 700 blue printed action, 26" Kreiger M/grade barrel 1-10 TR #5 profile, Wild dog stock, Basix trigger, Load = 168gn "A" Max, 42gn AR 2206H, Lapua case, BR-2 primer.
Scope NXS 15-55 x 52 set on ranging power 35 so hash marks are in correct MOA, I shot from a bench 1 group from the BR rest the other with my $50 Chinese Atlas Bi-pod clone using a rear squeeze bag old socks filled with garnet. (Center circle is 25mm)

What I am showing you is there were no alterations to the hold, every hold was at that red dot in the center so variations in this case was, shooter input, different recoiling cycles, none of the cases had annealed necks are work hardened which means the brass is not a malleable as it should be so some cases will be a tad tighter than others (they do not spring back as much after going through the die tighter tension on the bullet). Conditions ~ o/cast, no wind, 22 degrees Cel, fairly heavy air (early morn).
Anyway those groups for that rifle a hunting rifle quite acceptable groups apart from my flyer (called every time by me) that flyer is also evident on the splatter target I shot at 100yds off the bi-pod but the 4 shot hole is pretty good showing that the sight picture and shooting action are consistent & repeatable only environmental's, load variations and shooter variations will cause poor grouping.

Its like playing darts you got to group your darts together every time once you start getting them in a group this means your action is the same as well as your stance once mastered you alter your position on the "Ocky" to plant all 3 darts in the 20 zone.
If like Patrick said if you correct every shot your going to get frustrated as hell as it will never seem tight enough there will always be a hole in the group you need to practice the same sight picture & hold and shoot say 5 rounds and see where they land using no corrections that way if they are tightly grouped you know your sight picture, hold & release is the same you can then shift the poi by sight adjustments or Kentucky windage or altering body position.
But............. the rifle must have a dead windage zero I zero all my scoped rifles windage at 100m period it has to hit that vertical line smack on besides its also good practice for holding a rifle and trigger release, you zero it how it is going to be shot not off a rest if your going to hold the rifle and not held if your shooting it later off a rest.
The reason being the weapon reacts differently when held in either so your zero Wind may not be zero for how it is being shot (recoils differently in your shoulder), using a scoped rifle what I do is have an aiming mark like the 303 one on this site put it at 100yds put on a tad of elevation so it hits above the aiming mark adjust as usual till you hit the vert line on the target then fire a confirmation shot once you have zero'ed the turret knob. if its within half a bullet hole & cuts the line then thats good enough due to shot to shot variation and shooter input.

Blurring out this happens when holding too long it all goes fuzzy it happens using scoped as well due to concentrating for extended periods what is ideal is 3 seconds if shooting prone as you breath in the muzzle drops exhale the muzzle will rise until when all the air is out of you lungs the POA is where it should be and you release the shot, I am usually in the 2nd stage when coming up so when its on just a slight squeeze & the shots away.
If for any reason it goes blurry look away from the back sight keep your head where it is and look at the grass nearby or even at the dirt just near you for a few seconds then resume the aiming sequence what this does is allows your eyes to refocus again and you go from there.
Lastly try this get in position line up the target get the sight pic right the breathing going then in one sequence as the barrel goes down (inhaling) close your eyes and when exhaled open your eyes and see where your aiming if its not originally in the start point move your body around to get it centered then do it all again till you come up dead on, get a book by James Sweet on Competitive Rifle Shooting. (Pics of a couple of books that may help from my collection)

I will try and get rid of my flyers.....:p

What you have not told us Cinders, is what shot in the sequence this flyer occurs.
If it is the same shot in each string or if it is random.

If random than have someone video you while you shoot, this may pick up an anomalie in your actions or position in relation to the stray shot.
If a constant, than there are a couple of tricks........have someone else shoot a couple of strings to see if the problem is the fault of the firer or the rifle.
Try the video trick to pick up the fault, or try a mind trick taught to me years ago.
This simply involves thinking you are loading five rounds, one at a time.........not concentrating on the actual shot.
When you get to the round that upsets the group, load it but do not fire, eject the round and load and fire the next bullet......continue until you finish your string.
Basically tricking the mind into not thinking about the group blowing out at a known point..........basically a mental block/flinch that becomes a constant through repetition..........all smoke and mirrors.

4th in the 1st target 5th was back in the group, then 3rd in the 2nd target with 4 & 5 touching the rings at @8 o'clock in that order the 2nd shot nearly got the pin but not quite....!

Thank you Cinders, for a perfect illustration of what I was trying to explain! Any correction made after one of your flyers would have sent the following shot right out on the other side.

BTW, since all the flyers go left, I suspect the cause is "unrecoverable user error". Maybe holding the aim a trifle too long, so that the sight picture goes soft. You think it's stiil OK, but the result tells you otherwise. For myself, I know that the astigmatism in my right eye causes a slight double image, and if I hold the aim for more than a couple of seconds, the eye can lock on to the false image. This results in an annoying tendency to doubled groups, with two clusters about 1 MOA apart.

"Blurring out this happens when holding too long it all goes fuzzy it happens using scoped as well due to concentrating for extended periods what is ideal is 3 seconds if shooting prone as you breath in the muzzle drops exhale the muzzle will rise until when all the air is out of you lungs the POA is where it should be and you release the shot, I am usually in the 2nd stage when coming up so when its on just a slight squeeze & the shots away.
If for any reason it goes blurry look away from the back sight keep your head where it is and look at the grass nearby or even at the dirt just near you for a few seconds then resume the aiming sequence what this does is allows your eyes to refocus again and you go from there.
Lastly try this get in position line up the target get the sight pic right the breathing going then in one sequence as the barrel goes down (inhaling) close your eyes and when exhaled open your eyes and see where your aiming if its not originally in the start point move your body around to get it centered then do it all again till you come up dead on..."

- Excellent advice !!!

Thank you all so much for what you have offered. Almost every new comment on here gives me new ideas and makes things a bit clearer and I appreciate that immensely; no more wandering around in the dark.

Now since I firstly recieved some feedback I felt more confident to do more shooting, so first off I got out two .222's (Both scoped) that I had been planning to line up for a while (but with my flinch I was not exactly excited). I used the "Squeeze and surprise shot" technique for every shot and thought I started off trying to squeeze my eyes shut and anticipate each shot I was able to do shot after shot without even worrying in the end. All of this was off a bench setup at roughly 100 yards with average rifles and average ammo (Both rifles we use for pest extermination and nothing else), but that being said I felt good on almost every shot and managed completely satisfactory groups for each rifle despite their flaws. I am very happy about that.

Plenty of you hear have given advice on open sights shooting as well and I wanted to try some of it, however the rifle I brought out to try was an old MKIII Target Rifle set up from a very long time ago (Some rounds down the barrel loosened up plenty of old fouling and I might take it to the odd shoot just as a gimmick and to exercise the old girl haha), but it has as its front sights a kind of brass cylinder with a glass circle with a small hole in the middle. I do not know the technical name for this. Now this style of front sights made it hard for me to focus on anything without hurting my eyes (My target was too small anyway so it didn't really matter) and couple that with the fact that the Central No4 sights at the back were not lined up meant I was not able to make any groups before running out of time in the arvo. So it was far from ideal and I really didn't achieve anything except closing in on the zero a little and eventually figuring out I needed a bigger target and/or spotter to line it up good enough to shoot groups. In all honesty I should have taken my No4 to try as it has the standard battle and aperture sights at rear and blade at front. I will do that next time, but at least I got to clean my old MKIII out and blow the cobwebs out too (It has had a long history as a target rifle but I believe it may have been over 30 years ago it last shot) which was nice.

So one technique is a plus and the other of focussing on the front sights I just did not really have a chance to try. Thanks a bunch for helping me sort out my flinch, it is already noticeably better, and I'll sort everything out better to try all the other things when I get the chance.

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Originally Posted by nijalninja

but it has as its front sights a kind of brass cylinder with a glass circle with a small hole in the middle. I do not know the technical name for this. Now this style of front sights made it hard for me to focus on anything without hurting my eyes (My target was too small anyway so it didn't really matter) and couple that with the fact that the Central No4 sights at the back were not lined up meant I was not able to make any groups before running out of time in the arvo.

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A front sight that is a cylinder with a clear piece of plastic with a hole in the center of the plastic is an aperture front sight. You center up the aiming black on the target in the hole.
The rear sight probably has an adjustable iris in it to change the size of the rear aperture, like a camera shutter. Under bright light conditions, this allows you to reduce the size of the rear aperture, which sharpens up what you see quite a bit...the aperture effect.

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Originally Posted by nijalninja

So one technique is a plus and the other of focussing on the front sights I just did not really have a chance to try. Thanks a bunch for helping me sort out my flinch, it is already noticeably better, and I'll sort everything out better to try all the other things when I get the chance.

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Here's a drill to help with the flinch. It's called the "Ball and Dummy Drill".
If you have access to dummy cartridges, or snap caps, have a friend load the magazine out of you sight randomly loading a mix of the live ammo and the dummy cartridges.
Then, take up a solid shooting position and proceed to "shoot a group". Your flinch will be very apparent when there is a dummy cartridge in the chamber, but after a few magazines full, you should be able to tame the flinch.

Report back on your continuing progress.

This is an excellent thread. Thank you all for sharing your experience.
It has given me several pointer's to help me improve my target shooting in Military rifle competitions.
I have found my self making many of the errors mentioned above. I know the rifles are ok and the ammunition reloads are as good as I've found yet with the powder's available.
I moved to a softer powder and cured the flinch I had originally with the No4 Mk1/2 (having been misguided by the Gunshop selling the materials).

Yesterday I shot the Trainer class in our departmental (county) competition using my No8 lee Enfield. Now our club has been closed since January for work, and re-opened for the competition. So all the "home" club member's have had no practice.
Anyway I shot a 94/100 prone and 86/100 standing. I was quite pleased despite it being off my best score; not having used this rifle since before Christmas. But did find myself not taking a pause to get the aim spot on with a few shot's.

It's got to the point where I need some proper coaching to pinpoint the faults and then work on them. Unfortunately that is not available in our club as it's not very competition orientated.

No4Mk1T: Ah aperture sights. I had heard the name plenty of times but did not want to confuse anyone by blurting it out in case I were completely wrong haha. It seems the glass in the foresight for me is a little scratched and opaque so I can only really see through the little hole. Is this how it is meant to be or should the whole ring be clear? Oh and I have thought about an exercise like that to fix my flinching. Funnily enough a Rem 700 I have had a slightly short firing pin and used to fire maybe 2/3 times at complete random, and out in the bush shooting 200+ yards off a bike it played hell on my nerves but for a while I had the flinch down and out but after slacking off its come back. But, I will try an exercise like that one perhaps with unprimed shells with a seated bullet and no powder, so they look fine but don't go off, unless excessive dry firing can harm an Enfield. Thanks for the help so far and lets see what happens now.

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Originally Posted by nijalninja

No4Mk1T: Ah aperture sights. I had heard the name plenty of times but did not want to confuse anyone by blurting it out in case I were completely wrong haha. It seems the glass in the foresight for me is a little scratched and opaque so I can only really see through the little hole. Is this how it is meant to be or should the whole ring be clear? Oh and I have thought about an exercise like that to fix my flinching. Funnily enough a Rem 700 I have had a slightly short firing pin and used to fire maybe 2/3 times at complete random, and out in the bush shooting 200+ yards off a bike it played hell on my nerves but for a while I had the flinch down and out but after slacking off its come back. But, I will try an exercise like that one perhaps with unprimed shells with a seated bullet and no powder, so they look fine but don't go off, unless excessive dry firing can harm an Enfield. Thanks for the help so far and lets see what happens now.

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The front sight should have a makers name on it. The clear plastic insert should be available as a replacement part if the sight is still in production. That's what I would try first. If a replacement cannot be obtained, then remove the insert from the sight and hand polish with a product made for that purpose. Here in the US, I have used a polish called "Blue Magic" that works great for removing light scratches from plastic items like DVD's, watch crystals, and the clear lens over the speedometer in the car. Not sure if it's available in Oz, but Amazon has it if you cannot find a comparable product.
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Magic-30...rds=blue+magic