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Traveling for work and wandered into a small local gun show yesterday. Wasn't expecting much, but holy batman. I almost fell over reaching for my wallet when I saw this. VERY reasonably priced. Also has an early Rock Island sling. Bore is frosted. Pardon the bad, cell phone in a hotel pics.
Great find, Can't quite see the serial number, how about more photos of the rifle, Ray
Is the trigger guard NRA marked?
Ser - 95207
Love to see some better pics when you have a chance. That's a neat rifle...
Jealous!
That's the type of 1903 I'd rather have in my collection than the recent Auction Gambling find (not that I'm looking that gift horse in the mouth).
A nice early example that fought "Over There" in "The Big One" is a pretty awesome thing. I'd probably convert it to 22 for quiet and safe shooting.
I'm drawn to Rock Island's too..not sure why, they're just neat to me.
Anyway, I agree with Jim. I would love to see some more pictures!
Yes or perhaps a .30 cal insert, like a .30 carbine insert I once saw...Quote:
Originally Posted by rcathey
That's a nice early 1903 RI rifle. The serial number places it as off the line about 8-07. I have one serial #87241, with the bbl date, 6-07. That is original correct also. These are very scarce early 1903's still having original dated parts as they are one of the earliest standard production Rock Island rifles manufactured with all new and correct period made components in the very first months of regular RI 1903 production in 1907. It’s not one of the put together rifles using mixed Rod bayonet or 30-03 parts. Rock Island arsenal waited until the Army finalized changes in the rifle from the rod bayonet, to the knife bayonet, and then from .30-03 to .30-06. After final model approval, any parts that were already made the arsenal assembled into complete rifles and issued them out. All these assembled rifles will have mixed period receiver and dated parts. By about 1907 most of those misc early parts had been used up by RI and rifles made after that were made mostly with newly made parts with fairly close matching receiver, parts and barrel dates. See C.S. Ferris & J. Beard, pg 25. The rifles should have all the correct early 1907 dated components and a high wood stock with no stock reinforcement bolts, a split rear sight base cut out, and a no sight groove hand guard, also the small rear sight wheel and the Platinum sight line on the rear sight leaf slider. The stock should have a “CN” 1908 cartouche and an “S” stamp on the stock tip and a proof “P”. Very scarce to find early original manufactured R.I. 1903 rifles that have not been assembled from stored parts and especially one that was made in the very first months of normal production.
Attachment 93847Attachment 93848Image, Ray
Always nice to find the pre WW1 examples, I have RIA 64145 with a excellent bore RIA 3-07 dated barrel and the early square sided slide like on Rays Rock Island.
A few years ago I did restore some nice ( 3576 & 3670) Rock Island receivers from the CMP auction, not worth much but nice looking. Finding pre WW1 Rock Island barrels is very difficult but I was able to find early SA barrels in decent condition for restoration.
Best sub caliber insert that I have used is the 32 ACP or 32 S&W Long, both are accurate.
A total burned-out bore is best with a quality 22 rim fire insert and M2 bolt with headspace
adjustment screw, very accurateAttachment 93849Attachment 93850Attachment 93851Attachment 93852Attachment 93853
Ray: I'm still traveling and will get some more pics up when I get back to the house. It's a one bolt CN 1908 stock with 10-08bbl. What's your take on the receiver date vs. barrel date discrepancy? The sling is also a TCC inspected Rock Island that appears to have either a 1910 or 1916 date depending.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayg
---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------
Browning Auto: Still traveling. Will post more pics when I get home.
This is my 1913 dated Springfield Armory M1903.
Well. I've spent all my tears and can now post. First out of the stock showed a full sight collar vs. split so I knew immediately. It was a put together. Not a horrible one, but damn sure not as issued. So, my evaluation: period 1908 stock that had been routed to accept the later full sight collar. You can still see the original relief cut for the early sight collar in the wood. You can see the two holes underneath the front band indicating that it was shortened. Rear sight looks like a Springfield vs. Rock Island, but maybe the gurus can confirm. Other than that, and the disparity in serial vs. barrel, it's not bad. At least for the price I paid for it. Not a real true period correct Rock Island, but still pretty nice. Will be a welcome addition as a representative example regardless.
Still a tidy looking rifle though.
I can't recall when RI added the stock bolt and I had sold off all my books recently but I'm thinking the stock bolt might have been approved about 1908-09 or so. Not sure, anymore. Maybe some one can help with the answer, Ray
Ray, I think you are correct on the stock bolt, the groove was added to the handguard before the clips around the same time. The early handguard (flat top) is about impossible
to find but repros are available for around $75 sometimes. Any decent Rock Island cartouche from the pre WW1 period on a stock is quite valuable
Just looked up in the book and it states that rifles that were cleaned and repaired at "Springfield" armory since Oct 1907, had the split sight bases replaced with the solid one. And that would also account for your SA rear sight. The split one would warp and would be difficult to replace. So not so bad, your rifle just went to Springfield for either cleaning or repair. The book doesn't state when RI went to the solid sleeve but it's possible that if Springfield had them, maybe RI also initially installed them in the later 1908 serial number rifles like yours. So I would say it's still a period 07 rifle. Ray
The rifle may have been one of those paired and/or overhauled early on. Springfield started replacing and repairing almost from the get-go. Pre-WWI overhauled M1903s are uncommon.
One of the most interesting (to me) M1903s I have is Springfield #313439. While the receiver dates to about 1907, the barrel was replaced with a 1915 SA; the stock was replaced by a rebuilt Rod Bayonet and a single stock bolt added. It has a "script" inspection stamp from the RB days and was overstruck by a JSA stamp. An S30 bolt, which may be original to 1907. I'm assuming this rifle was overhauled in the 1915-1916 period. Note that the formerly high wall stock was modified to the later standard.
I know we get all excited over "original" rifles, but some of the rebuilds are interesting, too.
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Thanks Rick. You are correct. We often forego the significance of the rebuild as part of the story of the 1903. We kinda get the notion of a haphazard slap together rifle that has lost it's pedigree and forget that in many instances it's harder to find a representative example of a "by the book" early rebuild, with the primary example being the early conversions. That's an interesting and beautiful example you have there. I don't think I'm privy to those sub inspection stamps in the cutoff recess, especially the triangle. Is that a part of the initial inspection or something to do with the rebuild?
I finally managed to find my Ferris/Beard production alterations book and noted on p.26 that the split sight base was discontinued in October 1907. So, since the barrel is 10-08 dated, then I'm assuming that it was correctly assembled with a solid sight base. On the same page, the rear stock bolt was authorized on February 20, 1908. So the CN 1908 inspected stock with a single cross bolt is highly possible. But, the stock itself was originally cut/manufactured on the stock lathe for the pre-1906 cartridge due to the plugged front band screw hole (no rod bayonet insert) with S stamp and originally routed for the split rear sight base. The receiver date is 1907. What the heck is going on here? Did it come out of Rock Island as it sits? Did it get an early rebuild? I'm solidly confused now.
The rear sight was made by Springfield, so doubt the rear sight and the solid base were originally assembled by RA. Most likely it went through Springfield for some reason and the split base was replaced with the solid base with the SA rear sight at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMallard
Of course you could say the rear sight base was originally put on by RI and the rear sight put on later by SA. But that would be just a stretch. It usually takes months or even longer for up graded parts to get added to a current production rifle. So most likely an 1907 off the line RA rifle would still come off the line with a split base. Wish I could tell you you something different. It's just my opinion anyway. Ray
We can sometimes get all excited about "specific" dates for changes made - often, there was a considerable transition period between changes made.
That’s a Very interesting rifle!
Very interesting post, and nice rifle!
Every day I learn a great 1903 lesson, thank you all!
After Jan 1, 1907, barrel dates pretty well indicate the approx manufacturer of the rifle verses the serial number. C.S. Ferris & J. Beard, Ray
63499 4-07
65975 3-07
71587 4-07
87229 6-07
94160 7-08
You need to research and find when RI started to use the solid base and if it's within range of your serial number. Find a correct sight w/the sq edges and replace the one on it and you would be good to go. If not in range, it would be worth replacing both the base and sight. and and then rifle would be all parts correct. Ray
Does anyone else have a rifle within those early serial number ranges mentioned above, that also have the correct matching serial number dated parts? The book was written a number of years ago and I would think there might be other rifles out there. Ray
Not sure what you mean by "correct matching serial number dated parts," as I can only find stamps on my early RIA, but here's my thread about it: RIA #49643:Quote:
Originally Posted by rayg
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=65378